First deer hunting rifle help!!!!

[mustangman95gt]

I have experience shooting and have always wanted to hunt. I am purchasing my 2 year apprentice hunting license to try it out. I would like to know what a good cheap hunting rifle is new or used. I was thinking 30-06 but I'm sure there are others out there with plenty more knowledge to lead me in the right direction.

Should I get a shotgun/rifle combo? I leaned towards the Remington 770 before but I read a lot of reviews that weren't so positive.

Any knowledge will be helpful!

[TangoDown3727]

Depends where you intend to hunt the most. You have to travel pretty far north to use a rifle. In most of the southern half of the LP shotguns are the only thing allowed. Here is the DNR map of the zones:
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10363_10913-31537--,00.html
Hope it helps. Good luck!

[Danco411]

If your going to hunt in the rifle zone then get a rifle. If your going to hunt mainly downs south you'll need a shotgun or a muzzle loader. I'd lean towards a muzzleloader over a shotgun for accuracy.

As far as rifles I'd suggest you look at a .308 over '06. The .308 is a shot action vs the long action 30'06. Better bullet choices and less expensive. The deer hunting rounds are limitless. The 270 is also a great option.

The Remington 770 is not a bad starter rifle for someone on a budget. Same with the Savage Axis. Look on the for sale board here you may be able to pick up a used 700 or Savage for a good price.

[TangoDown3727]

As far as rifles I'd suggest you look at a .308 over '06. The .308 is a shot action vs the long action 30'06. Better bullet choices and less expensive. The deer hunting rounds are limitless.

^^^This x10!^^^

[mustangman95gt]

I would be doing some hunting down south as well as some up in the Gaylord area on private land.

[j69charger500]

I would be doing some hunting down south as well as some up in the Gaylord area on private land.

Shotgun rifle combo is a no go then. Even if your just using the shotgun you still have a rifle in the field.

I'd suggest rollin with Rem 870 or a Mossberg 500 and getting a rifle down the line. 12GA will take down anything in North America.

[Quack Addict]

Just my .02 but I'd recommend a decent muzzleloader. They are legal for deer hunting statewide plus you get the benefit of being able to use it during the December muzzleloader season. If you shop around you should be able to find a new 50-cal Thompson Center Omega Z5 for about $300.

For loading it, I recommend the following:
- 300gr Hornady XTP Mag bullets (I prefer 45-cal .452" XTP's, also available in 44-cal .430") ($17/50)
- Harvester sabots ($7/50)
- Blackhorn 209 powder ($30)
- CCI209M primers ($5/100)

The bullets and sabots you select have to be a matched set (you can't use a 45-cal bullet with a 44-cal sabot and vise versa).

Open sights you should be able to manage 100 yards with it right out of the box. Add a decent set of mounts & rings for $40 and a $150 Nikon Prostaff scope and you should be able to get out to about 200 yards.

Out of the 5 deer I took last year, 4 of them were with a muzzleloader. The setup listed above has "bang flopped" deer for me out to 140 yards (laser ranged). I haven't used my shotgun here in the "shotgun zone" in about a decade.

[mjerickson]

The newer slug guns(shotgun) with sabot ammo are just as accurate as any rifle out there for use as a Michigan deer hunting rig. A 20ga is every bit as capable as a 12ga and alot less punishing.

I would sugest a good used 870, or 11-87, or even new the SP line from Remington are pretty reasonable at Gander Mt. I personally would go the good used route, as Im not really happy with the new economy lines that Remington is producing currently.

Another good option is the H&R single shot slug guns. A lot of guys swear by them. They are reasonably priced and accurate.

Lastly if you are thinking of a bolt rifle, look at the Savage 220 bolt action shot gun in 20ga. With good glass and sabots these things are shooting MOA out to 200yds plus.

These are all one gun options if your going to be hunting above and below the line. But if your dead set on a rifle. I personally think that a great entry level deer rifle is the Marlin 336 in .30-30, you can scope it if you like, and will take care of any deer in MI out to 150 if you put on in the boiler room. They are safe simple get the job done without too much fuss.

[mustangman95gt]

This may be a dumb question but what type of barrel would I put on a mossberg 500 or remington 870 for deer hunting? What type of round? And from what distance is the gun still considered accurate?

I'm finding good deals on used shotguns of the 2 I listed above.

[Ultra]

My first deer rifle was 30-30 Winchester Model 94.

My cheapest deer rifle was a Mosin Nagant 91-30.

My Mossberg 500, while I've never hunted deer with it, would be another example of an inexpensive choice suitable for you flat-landers down state.

In the end, go to a good gun shop and see which guns fit. Check for reach, cost, suitability to the task at hand and any other factors that come into play. Pick the best compromise amongst your priorities.

Good luck.

[coltpython22]

Go with a good lever action. If Brushy area, and my dad for my second dear rifle andni still have it. Was a ruger seven in 243. Weaver scope. I know ppl think 243 may be light but i hunted upsate ny from teen and im 40ty now. 243 always worked. Let us know what you decide. Good luck

[shifty_85]

my first deer rifle was my M91/30 Mosin nagant. the SP's cost a 1/4 of the guns price!!! have yet to shoot a deer with it but im sure the .30 cal 200 grain SP's will put them down.

also have a 30-30 bolt gun im sure would do the trick. in MI 30-30 seems to be the norm.

.270 is a nice round as well.

dont need anything fancy just somthing that shoots stright and has good ammo.

[shifty_85]

This may be a dumb question but what type of barrel would I put on a mossberg 500 or remington 870 for deer hunting? What type of round? And from what distance is the gun still considered accurate?

I'm finding good deals on used shotguns of the 2 I listed above.

depends on what type of round. ive always loaded my 870 with the 20" smooth bore with 1oz remington sluggers. had them in a good group at about 50 yards. couldnt hit the paper at 100 with it couldnt figure it out the slug box said it drops 8-10 inchs at 100. so id go with 50 and closer.

some guys use 00 buck in witch case you can use a longer barrel with a choke to hold the group tighter.

or if you want crazy aim get a rifled barrel with SABOT's its werid but for smooth bore you want Rifled slugs and for a rifled barrel SABOT's

ive always been told by my buddy who ONCE shot a deer with 00 buck to only use slugs one of the pellets hit the stomach of the deer and made it a mess to gut.

[mustangman95gt]

Remington 870 or Mossberg 500? Also what's the difference between the 500A and C?

[shifty_85]

ive had my remington 870 for 7 years and have had 0 issue's with it shooting 1,000's of the cheapest 12 gauge ammo i can find.

as for slugs they are very acc. as the 20" smooth bore has rifle sights on it.

never shot a deer thoe with any rifle or shotgun so i cant say. but im sure a slug will drop it almost right were it stands. 1oz of lead has that effect.

no idea on the mossbergs my buddy owns one almost the same as my 870 only diff is were the safety is. thats the only diff i see im sure there are more.

[MSGT]

My 870 with a rifled bore is super accurate to 100 yds which is about the farthest I get around my area and it's dropped at least 20 deer with 1 shot.

[mustangman95gt]

What do you guys think about these?

http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=Mossberg-Maverick-88-Shotgun&i=UF101455391&uf=true

http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=Remington-Model-870-Express-Shotgun&i=UF101691656&uf=true

[Marcus]

What do you guys think about these?

http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=Mossberg-Maverick-88-Shotgun&i=UF101455391&uf=true

http://www.gandermountain.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?pdesc=Remington-Model-870-Express-Shotgun&i=UF101691656&uf=true

a pump shotgun in your closet is like the 4x4 SUV in your driveway. It has limitations but is able to accomplish almost everything you would need a firearm to do.
I prefer mine in Remington flavor.

[shifty_85]

Remington 870 best pump action shotgun ever IMO. i have 1,000's and 1,000's of the cheapest 12 gauge ammo i can find and other than me short stroking it it has never failed! always goes bang throws one out and one slams up in an repeat. never replaced 1 part other than adding a mag extension tube.

[Mr Mudd]

Love my Savage 110 .30-06. Sure, .308 is cheaper (unless you reload :para: ) but .30-06 can take anything in N. America and is damn fun to shoot.

[MP15TDriver]

Just my .02 but I'd recommend a decent muzzleloader. They are legal for deer hunting statewide plus you get the benefit of being able to use it during the December muzzleloader season. If you shop around you should be able to find a new 50-cal Thompson Center Omega Z5 for about $300.

For loading it, I recommend the following:
- 300gr Hornady XTP Mag bullets (I prefer 45-cal .452" XTP's, also available in 44-cal .430") ($17/50)
- Harvester sabots ($7/50)
- Blackhorn 209 powder ($30)
- CCI209M primers ($5/100)

The bullets and sabots you select have to be a matched set (you can't use a 45-cal bullet with a 44-cal sabot and vise versa).

Open sights you should be able to manage 100 yards with it right out of the box. Add a decent set of mounts & rings for $40 and a $150 Nikon Prostaff scope and you should be able to get out to about 200 yards.

Out of the 5 deer I took last year, 4 of them were with a muzzleloader. The setup listed above has "bang flopped" deer for me out to 140 yards (laser ranged). I haven't used my shotgun here in the "shotgun zone" in about a decade.
I'm quoting this post for emphasis. OP, you should really consider getting a muzzleloader.

[EricF517]

Don't start looking for one specific tool to do all the jobs you want.

Get a muzzleloader for hunting shotgun zone, plus it will give you the extra week of season.

Get a rifle for rifle hunting.

To answer your question, get a Savage 10 in 308 and pick one up with a 1:10 twist. It will shoot any bullet you decide to put into it.

As far as the 30-06, well there isn't a damn thing that the 30-06 will do that my 308 won't. They shoot the exact same bullets, and you only give up about 50-100fps. No great loss, other than brass is more expensive, you use more powder per round.

OP if you are recoil sensitive take a hard look at a 6.5 Creedmor, 260 Remington, and the 243. All very capable of taking anything you plan on hunting other than the dangerous 5 in Africa.

[mustangman95gt]

Happy Thanksgiving everyone! Anyone have experience with a Maverick model 88 made by Mossberg? I'm a poor college student and tomorrow Dick's has them for sale for $160. I'm very tempted to buy but usually you get what you pay for. Thoughts?

[westcliffe01]

If you are cash strapped, get a single shot rifled barrel 20 ga shotgun. H&R makes the 20ga slug hunter and it is $245 at Buds http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/37_263/products_id/52900/H%26R+20+Ga+Slug+Hunter24%22+Rifled+Barrel3%22+Cha mberWalnut+St

The reason I recommend a 20 ga slug gun over a ML is that there are times when you need a second shot. With a ML you can forget about that. Even though good sabot slugs cost a lot of money (close to $2.50 to $3.00 each) you would be mistaken to think that a black powder gun is cheap to shoot.

I also have a ML and I use it in the late season (after Dec1). In the southern part of the state late ML season goes through the end of December if you are hunting does for the freezer (which is me). At 70gr (weighed) 110gr measured of black powder, a lb of powder does not last long. Nor are the 209 primers cheap. Nor are either sabot bullets or full bore ones like the powerbelts. By the time you are done being nickeled and dimed for bullet starters, a decent brass charge measuring cylinder, something to dispense black powder, one of the kits to hold 3 or 4 loads, a bag to hold all this stuff together and a nice ramrod with a decent handle (the bullets can require a lot of force after the first shot)... you will be realizing that nothing is saved by shooting black powder. The only reason to get this stuff is compliance with our stupid laws.

Believe me, getting a ML to actually shoot worth half a damn when faced with the bewildering choices in powder, primers, load amount, hundreds of bullets etc was one of the toughest things for me to accomplish. And after all that, I am not satisfied at all by the consistency when shooting it. What I have focused on is getting a good first cold bore shot every time. But the trajectory drops with every shot after that and its not long and I am not even on the paper.

Now add that the only way to effectively unload a ML is to shoot it, you have to basically clean it IMMEDIATELY if you don't have a stainless barrel and the amount of fouling from a single shot is just incredible. Beware if you use lead full bore bullets...the lead fouling was simply incredible.

Finally, when you do let off "old Bess" everything disappears in a cloud of smoke, so good luck figuring where the deer went.... Seriously, I do use mine during the late season, but it is nowhere near as user friendly as the rifle barreled shotguns. If you get a H&R single shot, and get one of the butt nylon shell holders, reloading is just a couple of seconds. You maintain full view after the shot, if you keep your non shooting eye open. And you have no need to scrub the gun with hot water and soap within a few hours of shooting it. And accuracy is hardly going to be affected by the powder fouling at all.

The reason to recommend 20ga over 12ga is that the recoil is reduced without having any substantial effect on downrange killing power. Right now, the best place to get the good slug ammo is at Meijer, look for Remington accutip 20 ga slugs for about $13 for a box of 5. Or Hornady SST's should be in the same price range.

Getting a 12ga slug gun is a great way to develop an awful flinch and either miss or wound everything downrange. Some people are more tolerant, you will know if you shoot magnum rifles any good, this is something you would already have overcome. But if you have been shooting AK's and AR's, this is a different dimension.

I personally have a Savage 220 bolt action 20 ga slug gun. I just took my first buck ever with it. 125 yard head shot, it is that accurate. Write up here http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1800741&postcount=9
http://keithandseija.com/pictures/Prizebuck1.jpg

[jaslfan]

I shoot a Mossberg 535 Tactical turkey barrel in the spring and switch over to sabots through a rifled barrel with scope for putting venison in the freezer. I have mine zeroed at 100 yards and seems to work pretty good in either zone for me.

[PaulB84]

If you are cash strapped, get a single shot rifled barrel 20 ga shotgun. H&R makes the 20ga slug hunter and it is $245 at Buds http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/37_263/products_id/52900/H%26R+20+Ga+Slug+Hunter24%22+Rifled+Barrel3%22+Cha mberWalnut+St

The reason I recommend a 20 ga slug gun over a ML is that there are times when you need a second shot. With a ML you can forget about that. Even though good sabot slugs cost a lot of money (close to $2.50 to $3.00 each) you would be mistaken to think that a black powder gun is cheap to shoot.

I also have a ML and I use it in the late season (after Dec1). In the southern part of the state late ML season goes through the end of December if you are hunting does for the freezer (which is me). At 70gr (weighed) 110gr measured of black powder, a lb of powder does not last long. Nor are the 209 primers cheap. Nor are either sabot bullets or full bore ones like the powerbelts. By the time you are done being nickeled and dimed for bullet starters, a decent brass charge measuring cylinder, something to dispense black powder, one of the kits to hold 3 or 4 loads, a bag to hold all this stuff together and a nice ramrod with a decent handle (the bullets can require a lot of force after the first shot)... you will be realizing that nothing is saved by shooting black powder. The only reason to get this stuff is compliance with our stupid laws.

Believe me, getting a ML to actually shoot worth half a damn when faced with the bewildering choices in powder, primers, load amount, hundreds of bullets etc was one of the toughest things for me to accomplish. And after all that, I am not satisfied at all by the consistency when shooting it. What I have focused on is getting a good first cold bore shot every time. But the trajectory drops with every shot after that and its not long and I am not even on the paper.

Now add that the only way to effectively unload a ML is to shoot it, you have to basically clean it IMMEDIATELY if you don't have a stainless barrel and the amount of fouling from a single shot is just incredible. Beware if you use lead full bore bullets...the lead fouling was simply incredible.

Finally, when you do let off "old Bess" everything disappears in a cloud of smoke, so good luck figuring where the deer went.... Seriously, I do use mine during the late season, but it is nowhere near as user friendly as the rifle barreled shotguns. If you get a H&R single shot, and get one of the butt nylon shell holders, reloading is just a couple of seconds. You maintain full view after the shot, if you keep your non shooting eye open. And you have no need to scrub the gun with hot water and soap within a few hours of shooting it. And accuracy is hardly going to be affected by the powder fouling at all.

The reason to recommend 20ga over 12ga is that the recoil is reduced without having any substantial effect on downrange killing power. Right now, the best place to get the good slug ammo is at Meijer, look for Remington accutip 20 ga slugs for about $13 for a box of 5. Or Hornady SST's should be in the same price range.

Getting a 12ga slug gun is a great way to develop an awful flinch and either miss or wound everything downrange. Some people are more tolerant, you will know if you shoot magnum rifles any good, this is something you would already have overcome. But if you have been shooting AK's and AR's, this is a different dimension.

I personally have a Savage 220 bolt action 20 ga slug gun. I just took my first buck ever with it. 125 yard head shot, it is that accurate. Write up here http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1800741&postcount=9
http://keithandseija.com/pictures/Prizebuck1.jpg

This saved me alot of writing. ML's are awesome, but the most accurate of the slug guns (Browning A-bolts, Savage 220s, H&R Slugger, cantilever 870s) have nearly identical ballistics with a fraction of the learning curve.

Either way, if you do your part, either will fill your tag.

Don't forget the other options:

#1 A bow or crossbow gets you in the woods straight from Oct 1st to Dec 31st...12 weeks of deer hunting! Its not as complex as you think, the new compounds are easy to master for the most novice of bow shooters.

#2 A handgun of proper caliber that satisfies the law in both the rifle and shotgun zone would allow free range of the whole state during any legal firearm season. A full size revolver in .357, .44, .454, .460, .500, or a Glock 20, or 10mm 1911, any of those is good out to 50 yards easy, closer to 100 with optics.

[GregK]

I would still opt for a muzzleloader just because you can use it in any firearm season. If he likes hunting & wants to continue, then he can expand his weaponry.

I would go with he TC Impact because it has an easily adjustable stock length & it can fit a youth & then again later as he grows. The blued model is fine.

Buy Blackhorn209 powder, Hornady 44 cal 240 or 300 grain XTP bullets, & Harvester Crush Rib sabots (green in color) If he is recoil sensitive start with 80 grains of powder( by volume, meaning in a TC Clear view measure) I have yet to see a TC not accurate with this combo using 80 to 110 grains of BH209.

DO NOT USE ANY SMOKLESS POWDER!!!!!!!

To address earlier comments that make it sound dirty, hard & horrible.....

BH209 powder cleans with regular gun solvents....NOT black powder solvents!

You NEVER swab between shots. This is right from Western Powders. The first shot & the 70th shot will load the same.

Use ONLY CCI Mag 209 primers & not any primer listed as a "muzzleloader primer" They are too cold & you will have ignition problems.

Foul the barrel with one shot before hunting & clean it after season.

BH209 is very clean & cleans up easily. It makes the sport very enjoyable & fun.

Whatever you choose.....Good luck & have fun :)

[westcliffe01]

I too have switched to blackhorn 209 and while you can continue to load more shots, my range time has shown that bullet drop and thereby muzzle velocity drops with every shot due to powder fouling. If I try to shoot a 5 shot "group" by the method you describe, I get a vertical string that is over 6" vertically. But, starting with a clean gun, the first shot is always in the same place.

[Quack Addict]

I too have switched to blackhorn 209 and while you can continue to load more shots, my range time has shown that bullet drop and thereby muzzle velocity drops with every shot due to powder fouling. If I try to shoot a 5 shot "group" by the method you describe, I get a vertical string that is over 6" vertically. But, starting with a clean gun, the first shot is always in the same place.

"Bullet drop" per your range sessions is not an indication of decreased velocity. Do you realize how much change in MV you would have to have to generate a 6" vertical string? If you are seeing vertical stringing it ain't velocity change due to fouling.

FWIW, muzzle velocity tends to creep up (slightly) on multi-shot strings. Evenso, it's nowhere even close to significant enough to make a notable difference on a target ~100 yards off.

[Quack Addict]

The reason I recommend a 20 ga slug gun over a ML is that there are times when you need a second shot. With a ML you can forget about that. Even though good sabot slugs cost a lot of money (close to $2.50 to $3.00 each) you would be mistaken to think that a black powder gun is cheap to shoot.

...

At 70gr (weighed) 110gr measured of black powder, a lb of powder does not last long. Nor are the 209 primers cheap. Nor are either sabot bullets or full bore ones like the powerbelts. By the time you are done being nickeled and dimed for bullet starters, a decent brass charge measuring cylinder, something to dispense black powder, one of the kits to hold 3 or 4 loads, a bag to hold all this stuff together and a nice ramrod with a decent handle (the bullets can require a lot of force after the first shot)... you will be realizing that nothing is saved by shooting black powder. The only reason to get this stuff is compliance with our stupid laws.

Believe me, getting a ML to actually shoot worth half a damn when faced with the bewildering choices in powder, primers, load amount, hundreds of bullets etc was one of the toughest things for me to accomplish. And after all that, I am not satisfied at all by the consistency when shooting it. What I have focused on is getting a good first cold bore shot every time. But the trajectory drops with every shot after that and its not long and I am not even on the paper.

Now add that the only way to effectively unload a ML is to shoot it, you have to basically clean it IMMEDIATELY if you don't have a stainless barrel and the amount of fouling from a single shot is just incredible. Beware if you use lead full bore bullets...the lead fouling was simply incredible.

Finally, when you do let off "old Bess" everything disappears in a cloud of smoke, so good luck figuring where the deer went.... Seriously, I do use mine during the late season, but it is nowhere near as user friendly as the rifle barreled shotguns. If you get a H&R single shot, and get one of the butt nylon shell holders, reloading is just a couple of seconds. You maintain full view after the shot, if you keep your non shooting eye open. And you have no need to scrub the gun with hot water and soap within a few hours of shooting it. And accuracy is hardly going to be affected by the powder fouling at all.

...

From later post:
I too have switched to blackhorn 209 and while you can continue to load more shots, my range time has shown that bullet drop and thereby muzzle velocity drops with every shot due to powder fouling. If I try to shoot a 5 shot "group" by the method you describe, I get a vertical string that is over 6" vertically. But, starting with a clean gun, the first shot is always in the same place.


Sorry to pick on you WC but too much here doesn't jive with reality for me here seeing that I've burned more black powder, Pyrodex and BH209 that some folk's collections are worth...

- Do your job properly with the first shot and there is NO need for a second shot. Ever. I recently did the math for a friend - my ML pushing the 300gr bullets I feed it has more retained velocity at 200 yards than a 44 Magnum pushing the same bullet has at the muzzle...

- How many slugs at $2.50 or $3 /trigger pull did you have to burn through before you found a sabot slug that printed well in your rifled barrel slug gun? I know in mine I had about $100 into slugs for my rifled pipe 12ga before I found something that would print well. And that was over a decade ago. They don't even make the slugs I shoot any more - discontinued. Luckily I have a few sleeves of them stockpiled but don't use the rifled pipe on my 870 any more so I guess it's kind of a moot point.

70 grains of black powder weighed? I don't know why but the 'experts' say not to weigh BP. Beats the crap out of me why it would hurt but either way, 70 grains by weight equals 100 shots per pound (there's 7000gr in 1 pound). Also ran the numbers for same friend last night - 1 load using 76gr BH209 (by weight) + 300gr XTP + black sabot + CCI209 comes out to well under $1 per trigger pull. And I'm not buying with any commercial discounts.

Bewildering choices? I just narrowed the field for the OP. My load is well under max charge for BH209 - play a little on either side of my rifles sweet spot and I'd hedge a bet similar results would be had with similar setup.

BH209 is a nitrocellulose base propellant. The smoke it blows is similar to most smokeless propellants I am familiar with in centerfire rifles. NOWHERE close to the same amount of smoke as BP or Pyrodex. NOWHERE close to the same amount of fouling. Calling a modern ML "old Bess"? :rofl:

Also, BH209 does not require IMMEDIATE barrel cleaning like BP or Pyrodex. You don't even use the same solvents with BH209 as you do with BP or Pyrodex. If you're scrubbing your ML "for several hours" after shooting it with BH209, you're in the weeds. It takes me about 10 minutes to clean my TC Omega - inside and out - including removing breech plug, cleaning the tunnel with a 1/8" bit, lubing it and reinstalling it.

Since I've already mentioned my friend a couple times (who was coincidentally telling me how much better his 12ga slug gun is), my ML exhibits exactly 6" drop from the 100 yard zero I have it set at out to the 200 yards where is still carries more juice than a 44 Mag at the muzzle. He shot his first deer with a 44 Mag last year at ~15 yards and he can't stop telling me about how 'bad' his 44 Mag is... :smoke:

Numbers and on-paper groups don't lie. Here's a pic of my pre-season group where I was testing in 1-gr increments. It's a hair under 2". Still not happy, may try some Barnes fodder next, maybe something heavier, but it is what it is for the rest of the season and my other inline ML's like the 300 XTP, so I have to keep them around. This was a 3 shot string, about as fast as I could stuff them. Want to guess where #1 went? #3 may have been off a little - some loud guy next to me with an AR-10 equipped with side exhaust kept dusting me with WC846/BLC2... just guessing by the taste of it :hurl: may have caused me to jerk the third a little as we got out of rhythm.

http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq135/QuackAddict/2012-11-26_20-05-22_960.jpg

[Roundballer]

70 grains of black powder weighed? I don't know why but the 'experts' say not to weigh BP. Beats the crap out of me why it would hurt but either way
The "experts" do not say not to weigh Black Powder. There is NO reason not to.

The other side of the coin is all of the "experts" AND the powder manufactures say NOT to weigh Black powder SUBSTITUTES. Black Powder Substitutes contain fillers so that they will have similar "power" to Black Powder at the same VOLUME. The density of the substitutes can be different by as much as 30%. If you are near a max load for your firearm, in volume, you could be as much as 30% OVER MAX if you weigh out substitute.

DO NOT WEIGH BLACK POWDER SUBSTITUTES. USE VOLUMETRIC MEASURE ONLY.

[Quack Addict]

DO NOT WEIGH BLACK POWDER SUBSTITUTES. USE VOLUMETRIC MEASURE ONLY.

This battle has been fought before. Blackhorn's website indicates a conversion factor of .7 of volumetric to weight conversion.

http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/b209muzzleloaderdata.pdf

Regardless of formulation, there exists a conversion factor of grains to equivalent weight BP. Whether the manufacturer chooses to publish or not (liability) is on them. For the price we pay for BH209, I wouldn't expect anything less.

[westcliffe01]

Quack, so far I have not needed a second shot with my ML. That is not to say I never will. When I shot the buck I showed, I got bad range from my (brand new) rangefinder. It said that a tree in front of the deer was at 170 yards, when in fact (checked the next day) it was 125 yards to where the deer stood. So I held for 200 and shot over its back. If I had taken that shot with my ML, I would have been out of luck. But with my 220, I had a second chance.

I have been shooting powerbelt bullets, since I was not clear if part of the bore fouling I experienced with 777 was due to the sabot leaving residue in the bore or not. Powerbelt bullets are $1.34+ to start ($20 for 15 - sale price). Blackhorn 209 is $32/lb so just over $0.52 per 110gr charge. CCI primers are $0.35 each. That gives me $2.21 per shot and I am not counting the cost of the solvent, patches etc that I use to clean the rifle after every shot. So in comparison with Hornady SST's or Remington Accupoints at about $11/5 at Meijer that is about even. Except that I can shoot 10 rounds and have no shift in impact point, no need for cleaning of any kind.

I have not gotten into why I have the issues I do shooting multiple rounds with my ML. The fact is that after a single shot, it is quite impossible to see the rifling due to the layer of soot from the last shot. Perhaps my flash hole is too small or clogged, but the fouling in the breech plug is simply phenomenal after about 5 rounds. If is hard for me to know how it even fires at that point.

I don't want the OP to enter to into this all starry eyed. I have a setup that works for me, even though I don't like it and I am far from happy. If I had spent nearly as many hours at the range trying to get something that worked with my slug gun as with my ML, I would be poor indeed. But as you see, there is virtually no difference in cost to shooting them in the final analysis. Range time with the savage 220 = about 30 rounds fired, including sighting in 2 scopes.

In the fine are of shooting ML I still have a lot to learn, that is clear...


Sorry to pick on you WC but too much here doesn't jive with reality for me here seeing that I've burned more black powder, Pyrodex and BH209 that some folk's collections are worth...

- Do your job properly with the first shot and there is NO need for a second shot. Ever. I recently did the math for a friend - my ML pushing the 300gr bullets I feed it has more retained velocity at 200 yards than a 44 Magnum pushing the same bullet has at the muzzle...

- How many slugs at $2.50 or $3 /trigger pull did you have to burn through before you found a sabot slug that printed well in your rifled barrel slug gun? I know in mine I had about $100 into slugs for my rifled pipe 12ga before I found something that would print well. And that was over a decade ago. They don't even make the slugs I shoot any more - discontinued. Luckily I have a few sleeves of them stockpiled but don't use the rifled pipe on my 870 any more so I guess it's kind of a moot point.

70 grains of black powder weighed? I don't know why but the 'experts' say not to weigh BP. Beats the crap out of me why it would hurt but either way, 70 grains by weight equals 100 shots per pound (there's 7000gr in 1 pound). Also ran the numbers for same friend last night - 1 load using 76gr BH209 (by weight) + 300gr XTP + black sabot + CCI209 comes out to well under $1 per trigger pull. And I'm not buying with any commercial discounts.

BH209 is a nitrocellulose base propellant. The smoke it blows is similar to most smokeless propellants I am familiar with in centerfire rifles. NOWHERE close to the same amount of smoke as BP or Pyrodex. NOWHERE close to the same amount of fouling. Calling a modern ML "old Bess"? :rofl:

[Quack Addict]

Quack, so far I have not needed a second shot with my ML. That is not to say I never will. When I shot the buck I showed, I got bad range from my (brand new) rangefinder. It said that a tree in front of the deer was at 170 yards, when in fact (checked the next day) it was 125 yards to where the deer stood. So I held for 200 and shot over its back. If I had taken that shot with my ML, I would have been out of luck. But with my 220, I had a second chance.

I have been shooting powerbelt bullets, since I was not clear if part of the bore fouling I experienced with 777 was due to the sabot leaving residue in the bore or not. Powerbelt bullets are $1.34+ to start ($20 for 15 - sale price). Blackhorn 209 is $32/lb so just over $0.52 per 110gr charge. CCI primers are $0.35 each. That gives me $2.21 per shot and I am not counting the cost of the solvent, patches etc that I use to clean the rifle after every shot. So in comparison with Hornady SST's or Remington Accupoints at about $11/5 at Meijer that is about even. Except that I can shoot 10 rounds and have no shift in impact point, no need for cleaning of any kind.

I have not gotten into why I have the issues I do shooting multiple rounds with my ML. The fact is that after a single shot, it is quite impossible to see the rifling due to the layer of soot from the last shot. Perhaps my flash hole is too small or clogged, but the fouling in the breech plug is simply phenomenal after about 5 rounds. If is hard for me to know how it even fires at that point.

I don't want the OP to enter to into this all starry eyed. I have a setup that works for me, even though I don't like it and I am far from happy. If I had spent nearly as many hours at the range trying to get something that worked with my slug gun as with my ML, I would be poor indeed. But as you see, there is virtually no difference in cost to shooting them in the final analysis. Range time with the savage 220 = about 30 rounds fired, including sighting in 2 scopes.

In the fine are of shooting ML I still have a lot to learn, that is clear...

#1, dump the Powerbelts or use them to poke holes in paper.
#2, if you have a large amount of carbon buildup in your breech plug you are using the wrong primers or the ones you have are deteriorated for whatever reason or you need to clean the breech plug properly (or more often). BH209 needs to be touched off the hottest magnum primer you can find.

I have 30+ shoots through my ML shooting BH209 since I last cleaned any of it. I took a nice doe with the setup on Tuesday afternoon and bullet struck right where I put the x-hairs. When I recharged the ML after shooting the doe I didn't have any difficulty seating the fresh sabot/bullet. My ML won’t get cleaned until after the end of late antlerless season.

- The 777 IS your fouling issue.
- If you are paying $.35 per CCI primer - which works out to $35/100 - you are buying your primers in the WRONG place.
- If you are using Powerbelts & BH209 in conjunction, BH209 specifically says not to do so - the Powerjunk bullets don't provide a proper seal to promote powder burn. See Number 5 (http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/ignition-guidelines/).


A muzzleloader is different than a cartridge gun, but many of the principles relative to the propellant are the same. The bullet is seated in the cartridge to create the pressure necessary to propel the bullet. A bullet in a muzzleloader needs to be compressed against the powder. The base of the bullet, or sabot needs to expand to hold the building pressure which propels the bullet. Imagine you placed a bullet 1 inch ahead of the case in a cartridge gun. The bullet most likely would not exit the barrel. This same principle works in a muzzleloader. Loose fitting bullets, like the typical Powerbelts, may be convenient to load, but lack sufficient compression to assure consistent ignition or accuracy.

Because there are no standards in muzzleloading barrels, the diameters vary between all manufacturers and at times within the same manufacturer. A Powerbelt may fit nicely in one and slide to the bottom of another. Just the simple act of carrying your gun in the field may allow the bullet to slide forward and when compression of the powder is lost the result is a misfire or poor accuracy.

We recommend a quality tight fitting sabot for the most consistent accuracy and ignition.

[Crazy Matt]

Im not really a sportsman but were I to buy a rifle exclusively for deer in these parts would roll with a. 30/30 , .35 Rem or. 44 mag lever action, or Shuff tanker Garand. Or something vintage like a Savage 99, Remmy 8 or 760, or Winny 10 (had one, just to have) . Of course a lug bbl. Shotty makes a hell of a brush gun, as well as superb all around game harvester. I Might be more inclined to pistol hunt though.

I like the precision boltguns offer but don't see their range potential a good tradeoff most anywhere in the state, vs. Second shot ability. FWIW I loved that Ruger Frontier model now disc. but a nice lightweight scout. Savage's Scout is a great rifle and their Stevens 200 among the absolute best bargains in the gun industry...get more than you pay for

[kerryjohns]

marlin 3030. accurate, good choice of hunting rounds available, not as many as in 30-06, but the guns are much cheaper without sacrificing quality. The marlin is a lever action so its fun also, with much less kick than 30-06. 3030 has plenty stopping power and range for michigan hunting.

[TomE]

9 months later and .308 has disappeared from the shelves and guess what? The trusty 30/06 is still there.:banana:

So what did the OP decide on last year???

[langenc]

My first deer rifle was 30-30 Winchester Model 94.

My cheapest deer rifle was a Mosin Nagant 91-30.

My Mossberg 500, while I've never hunted deer with it, would be another example of an inexpensive choice suitable for you flat-landers down state.

In the end, go to a good gun shop and see which guns fit. Check for reach, cost, suitability to the task at hand and any other factors that come into play. Pick the best compromise amongst your priorities.

Good luck.


Good advice about the fit. BUT remember when Nov 15++ rolls around you will have 3 more layers of clothing on compared to todays 80+ degrees.

[wardog6t]

If your going to hunt in the rifle zone then get a rifle. If your going to hunt mainly downs south you'll need a shotgun or a muzzle loader. I'd lean towards a muzzleloader over a shotgun for accuracy.

As far as rifles I'd suggest you look at a .308 over '06. The .308 is a shot action vs the long action 30'06. Better bullet choices and less expensive. The deer hunting rounds are limitless. The 270 is also a great option.

The Remington 770 is not a bad starter rifle for someone on a budget. Same with the Savage Axis. Look on the for sale board here you may be able to pick up a used 700 or Savage for a good price.


I'd have to agree. 06 is a lot of gun for a noob... 308 is a lot funner to shoot in the often season. The 06 not so much...