Do people break into safes?

[joelansing]

I'm not talking cheap cabinets, but real safes. I've got a Stack On 24 gun convertible now, and thinking of getting something larger. I just don't know if it's worth spending a lot more for a "Quality" one, if the quality is a non-issue. If someone has an hour and a couple harbor freight tools they'll get into about anything. I have home alarms and cameras, so I'm thinking I don't need to defend against anything more than a tire tool used in a hurry. Has anyone seen gun safes that were broken into?
- Joe

[king2517]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efuu7yFeNjM

[MI-1911]

I'm not talking cheap cabinets, but real safes. I've got a Stack On 24 gun convertible now, and thinking of getting something larger. I just don't know if it's worth spending a lot more for a "Quality" one, if the quality is a non-issue. If someone has an hour and a couple harbor freight tools they'll get into about anything. I have home alarms and cameras, so I'm thinking I don't need to defend against anything more than a tire tool used in a hurry. Has anyone seen gun safes that were broken into?
- Joe

Quite often they just take the entire safe.

[rack attack]

10 minutes with a die grinder

[flhpi]

10 minutes with a die grinder
I agree all it would take is a metabo and about 6 disks to cut through one side wall break out the drywall and your in like flin

[XDM 40 cal]

plasma cutter.

[flhpi]

plasma cutter.
would the dry wall stop the arc and slag from reaching the contents of the safe?

[joelansing]

Ok, I know it CAN be done. But does anyone know of any safes actually being broken into personally? Or Locally? I don't mind protecting my stuff, but I'm not into protecting it from ghosts out of fear, and paying the price. Has anyone used a disk or plasma cutter on a gun safe in real life? What are the odds? I'm thinking cheap safes are 99.999% as good as expensive ones in real life?
- Joe

[flhpi]

I have never heard of any one breaking into a gun safe I have heard of safes that have been stolen

[BOSS302]

Isn't there an extra charge for breaking into a safe?

[Roundballer]

I went looking, and I know that there either pics or links on this forum that show how a guy was robbed and his safe was broken into. I didn't find it right off.

The thief's used a reciprocating saw and a demolition blade to carve a big hole in the side/top of a large safe. They just reached in and took what they could.

Safes, alarms, lights, everything that you can do will help to slow them down, or make it seem to be not worth the effort. At some point there is a line of diminishing returns. Get the best that you can afford, and go with it.

[joelansing]

Isn't there an extra charge for breaking into a safe?

I pick locks fairly well. No charge if it's local :) When I was young I peeled a safe with just a hammer and big screwdriver over a couple of hours. I don't see the need to pay $$$ for a safe that is more than 15 min tire tool proof in real life if your home is secure. The extra $500 for a better safe I'd put into alarms or cameras for my home.
- Joe

[rack attack]

I bought an American safe in a storage locker I bought. The ser# was missing and the safe company wouldn't help me ( which I would expect).
My cousin came over with a grinder with a cut off wheel.
Marked a 20x24 square in the center back and 10 min later was
In. Pulled the door trim and got the serial # and got the reset code ( key pad safe )
Cousin welded the back on and replaced fire board. Looks great and no one will ever see the back.
Was suprised how easy it was. A safe company will cut the floor out but there was no way I was going to fit through the floor.

[Wolvee]

I had to break into a safe for my mother after her husband died. Without the right tool it's a PITA and looked more like a monkey tossing a football. And toss it I did. A few times in fact.

I ended up peeling away thin outer steel/tin to try and break the hinge.

In the end all that was in it was a pistol purchase permit from years before a felony (no pistol to be found) and a title to a car that we couldn't even find.

His kids thought there would be thousands of dollars in it. They were like sharks. Not that they would have gotten it anyway but that didn't stop them from salivating, lol.

It was fun to tear it open none the less. I can't say that I'll ever try to do it again.

[XDM 40 cal]

would the dry wall stop the arc and slag from reaching the contents of the safe?

If the safe was in cased the plasma cutter would only be able to cut where metal is showing.
Contents would be burnt. imo.

[flhpi]

I have always wanted to put a safe in my basement floor with a door that had to be opened with a porta power.the safe door would have hydraulic lines that would move the lock pins and another set of lines that open the door the chucks would be hidden away from the safe area and the safe door would be under carpet,the walls and floor of the safe would be made of concrete and sealed with epoxy it would be fire proof for hours

[joelansing]

Please keep in mind the original question. Has anyone had a gun safe broken into in real life. That's what I'm curious about.
- Joe

[ColonelKurtz]

I put up a plasma cutter-free zone sign so I'm all good

[Liberty]

ltK-bDbADa8

This is long but it will run you through the differences quite well. When you see what some of the safes are made out of, it's pretty disappointing. Worth the time to watch and then decide how determined you think a criminal would have to be to get at what you have.

[10x25mm]

Please keep in mind the original question. Has anyone had a gun safe broken into in real life. That's what I'm curious about.
- Joe

About 6 months ago the Free Press had articles on a pawnshop/gold exchange up near Port Huron which had their safe 'cracked' The articles said there was a large pool of oil on the floor and the police provided photos showed the side of the safe chisled open. The safe appeared to be a typical 30 gun size gun safe.

It appeared that a portapower type hydraulic tool was used to cut through the wall of the building, then used to open the safe. The perps had plenty of time because the safe was not in an area covered by motion sensors. I seem to remember that this took place over a holiday weekend.

About a month ago there was a followup article on the arraignment of the perps. Unfortunately, I am not very good at searching the Free Press archives, but the articles and photos should still be there.

[councilman24]

I expect all of the one stolen are broken into. If anything the weight of so called safes are the more deterrent to theft than anything compared to light weight cabinets.

But a friend had his 1000 lb plus safe in his first floor bedroom closet. Someone who knew about it backed a trailer or pickup up to the window and pushed the safe out the window into vehicle and drove away. Reason to bolt it down.

[SWMP15]

I know someone who had a cannon safe broken into... According to them, someone knocked the digital key pad off and it opened....I won't comment any further as I don't buy it...

All safes can be broken into by a professional.

A stackon is an entry level safe for the most part... IMO would require little effort to get into by a pro

Don't meet people at ur house for deals and don't tell anyone what you have....even "friends"

if its a real safe that weighs the alot and is bolted down, I don't know how they can get it out. My uncle had to have mover get his safe upstairs bc it weighs several hundred pounds empty. I keep a couple ammo cans full in the bottom of mine for weight.

They are a deterrent more than anything. If u want a impenetrable safe buy a bank vault door and build a reinforced gun safe room out of steel and concrete. You'd need c-four to get in lol

[10x25mm]

I know someone who had a cannon safe broken into... According to them, someone knocked the digital key pad off and it opened....I won't comment any further as I don't buy it...

I had a lot of trouble with the electronics in a Kaba-Mas 3715 digital lock on a safe. The digital keypad went bad and had to be replaced. When I opened up the back of the safe door to connect the wires to the new keypad, I found that the safe manufacturer used the same design for the door with the digital lock as they use for doors with mechanical locks. This places the hole for lock communication wire directly on the centerline of the interior lock.

With the digital lock, you can remove the keypad as you do for a battery change and then stick a long punch in the wire communication hole and punch off the lock on the inside. My safe's manufacturer designed a secondary, spring loaded lock which siezes up the safe locking mechanism if someone does this, but I have seen other safes with digital locks which do not have this secondary locking mechanism. Safe manufacturers should really make it impossible to access the interior lock from the wire communication hole to prevent 'punching' of the interior lock.

The secondary lock works well, but didn't seem especially robust. I welded a piece of angle iron to the inside of the door to prevent a punch from reaching the interior lock through the wire communication hole. Now I sleep better at night.....

By the way, the Kaba-Mas lock systems store the combination on magnetic media inside the interior lock, not in the keyboard. I had to splice the wires from the interior lock to the new keyboard to get it open. The quick disconnect for the communication wires is at the interior lock edge and is not available from the outside of the safe. This is actually a neat security feature, as it prevents someone from connecting your safe's interior lock to an new keyboard and opening the safe. The new keyboard does not change the combination to your safe.

[cgswss]

The people that broke into my home in Lapeer "drilled" my safe. I had one of the large "60 min fireproof" safes (Liberty name on it)

When the locksmith came to tell the insurance company if it could be fixed, he showed me the lock that was inside the door. It looked like a toy. He said anyone that had worked as a locksmith could get into my safe with a good 3/8 drill in about 2 min.

He "totaled" the safe by the way, so I could get a new one. He had a very low opinion of gun safes as "safes"

[7th District]

Isn't there an extra charge for breaking into a safe?

In Michigan safe breaking is a life felony.

750.531 Bank, safe and vault robbery.

Sec. 531.

Bank, safe and vault robbery—Any person who, with intent to commit the crime of larceny, or any felony, shall confine, maim, injure or wound, or attempt, or threaten to confine, kill, maim, injure or wound, or shall put in fear any person for the purpose of stealing from any building, bank, safe or other depository of money, bond or other valuables, or shall by intimidation, fear or threats compel, or attempt to compel any person to disclose or surrender the means of opening any building, bank, safe, vault or other depository of money, bonds, or other valuables, or shall attempt to break, burn, blow up or otherwise injure or destroy any safe, vault or other depository of money, bonds or other valuables in any building or place, shall, whether he succeeds or fails in the perpetration of such larceny or felony, be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for life or any term of years.

History: 1931, Act 328, ***. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.531
Former Law: See section 1 of Act 111 of 1877, being How., § 9121; CL 1897, § 506; CL 1915, § 15229; and CL 1929, § 16748.

© 2009 Legislative Council, State of Michigan


LINK: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(0jne1p55j2qtz055hgug413d))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-531

[Ultra]

Some would say the real purpose of a good gun safe is protection against fire, not theft. In the end, like anything else, you get what you pay for. That said, if you think about the real reason you are buying a safe, buy the best you can afford.

I bought a Ft Knox.

[elwarpo]

Bolt the safe into the frame of the house using Lag bolts. It will not stop the theft of the safe but it will make it a lot more difficult. You can not stop someone from stealing anything, you just have to make it more difficult than someone else's place so they go there. If you have more than one safe bolt them together and into the frame of the house and short of a backhoe, they will have difficulty moving it. Thicker gauge steel and tamper proof locks will also make it more difficult. another. Most thefts are a quick smash and grab, having to move in heavy equipment to move 1000 pounds of steel tends to attract attention. Simple locks can easily be beaten with a drill, better locks can not.

[steve581581]

I've seen one large safe that was broken into. It was in the basement of a foreclosed home in Belleville out in the woods. It looked as it they used a cutting torch, ax, and a large pry bar. The door was mangled to say the least.

[greg531]

From what I have heard, 99% of burglaries are of the smash and grab types....Unless they can pick up a safe, and take it with them, they leave it.
They do not take the time to break into them....The Perps are more worried about someone coming home, or a neighbor calling the police......than sticking around, and try to break into a large safe.
The remanding 1% are pro's, and know what is in them.....mainly cash, and jewelry they can sell easily.....Your safe cannot stop them, only slow them down, bringing torches, and other pro equipment......

[soupyu]

Nah, don't think so.

[flhpi]

Nah, don't think so.
spamming for 10 posts

[Roundballer]

spamming for 10 posts
Yep, you made me look. More crap spilling out of the "Marketplace" into the rest of the forum. 10 posts in about 40 minutes so that he can post a pic of ammo @ $1.00/round.

[joelansing]

Thank you Sir. This is more of the info I was asking about. I have more of my long forgotten (sorry) thread to read. But so far this is the only time. And not a residence. I would like to say that I think you can keep your guns 90% safer by not showing them to slimeballs. Just doing that is worth the cost of half your security in most cases.
- Joe


About 6 months ago the Free Press had articles on a pawnshop/gold exchange up near Port Huron which had their safe 'cracked' The articles said there was a large pool of oil on the floor and the police provided photos showed the side of the safe chisled open. The safe appeared to be a typical 30 gun size gun safe.

It appeared that a portapower type hydraulic tool was used to cut through the wall of the building, then used to open the safe. The perps had plenty of time because the safe was not in an area covered by motion sensors. I seem to remember that this took place over a holiday weekend.

About a month ago there was a followup article on the arraignment of the perps. Unfortunately, I am not very good at searching the Free Press archives, but the articles and photos should still be there.

[joelansing]

Bolt the safe into the frame of the house using Lag bolts. It will not stop the theft of the safe but it will make it a lot more difficult. You can not stop someone from stealing anything, you just have to make it more difficult than someone else's place so they go there. If you have more than one safe bolt them together and into the frame of the house and short of a backhoe, they will have difficulty moving it. Thicker gauge steel and tamper proof locks will also make it more difficult. another. Most thefts are a quick smash and grab, having to move in heavy equipment to move 1000 pounds of steel tends to attract attention. Simple locks can easily be beaten with a drill, better locks can not.

I've been broken into twice.
My current 24 gun weighs about 600# full (one side all ammo). It's in a corner with 4 lag bolts into wall studs. Then 4 more lag bolts into floor joists under a real oak slab floor. You could still probably pry it up/out without a lot of trouble if you had a big enough bar. But I think you'd tear out the side wall of the house doing it. And then you'd need to get it out a door which is far away. I've got self monitored motion alarms that calls the phones of me, wife, and neighbor), and 4 cameras that record to my web space. I showed the Father of my hood rat neighbors what I have going on. Haven't had anyone touching my place since...:) Was fun showing it to him.. "When they break in they'll be movie stars and set off alarms before they even get into the house" :) And yes, it is on battery backup. Cheap $$350 Ebay system, but it has worked well for over a year now. So I've got like $350 into an alarm, and $450 into a safe. For the price of an insurance deductable I don't need to deal with one..:)
- Joe

[Shyster]

As a general rule, most thieves will leave a large gun safe alone. Yes, they would LOVE to get into it but the longer they are in the house the greater chance of getting caught. Most thieves do not want to spend the time necessary to crack a safe.

I look at my gun safe as a way to deter most theft, keep the kids away from the guns, and to offer a moderate degree of fire protection.

Just my $.02

[joelansing]

Much respect Sir. I read about your lost case. Just pick your cases better in the future. I imagine both you and the client learned a lot. :(
I agree totally. I'll probably just get a larger StackOn of some flavor that isn't digital. Anything I'd spend on a more expensive one I'll sink into better home alarms and such. They really don't want to hang out busting a safe when alarms are screaming and they notice cameras. I hid my camera recorder WAY up high on a shelf in the back of a bathroom. Put a white towel with Brown Shoe Polish stains in front of it. Nobody wants to get a chair to stand on, then grab a way ugly towel to check out that area..:)
- Joe


As a general rule, most thieves will leave a large gun safe alone. Yes, they would LOVE to get into it but the longer they are in the house the greater chance of getting caught. Most thieves do not want to spend the time necessary to crack a safe.

I look at my gun safe as a way to deter most theft, keep the kids away from the guns, and to offer a moderate degree of fire protection.

Just my $.02

[pipepro]

A lock keeps an honest man honest. Thats about it. With enough time, energy and determination no safe is totally secure.

I read an article a few years back when I was researching for my safe about how most safes are stolen and then broken into at some other location. The article went on to say the best way to keep it secure is to bolt it down where there can be no easy access to the sides or back, or to completely hide the safe, either behind a false panel, behind clothes in a closet, or hidden in some other creative fashion.

I doubt most smash and grabs are very organized, and would not be able to muster the skills or resources to pull off a large safe theft. I do believe that a theft involving a large safe would most likely be by someone that has been invited into your home at one time or another.

[westcliffe01]

I have been burgled twice in my life. Both times during the day. Not here in MI, we are talking South Africa, crime capital of the world.

First time, had no alarm system, had no armed response. The thieves cleared out every item of clothing, shoes, linen, blankets, comforters, pillows. In the kitchen, they took every food item that could be carried, ate from the stuff in the refrigerator and put what they didn't finish back.... Left all the mains powered electronic goods, took every battery powered item.

I went to work the next day in the same clothes I came home with, it was that bad. I only had 1 firearm and I carried every day, so they did not score there. All the wifes jewelry etc gone.

Then I had a alarm system put in with a modem to communicate via the phone line and a backup battery powered radio transmitter with a hidden antenna. Same company offered 24/7/365 armed response service. it cost $135/mo. If the alarm was triggered, they were scaling the wall 2 minutes later with their pump action shotguns and ladders.

Despite all that, just a few months passed so that all the stolen stuff could be replaced, then I was hit again. This time they knew they didn't have much time and went exclusively for the big ticket items. With all the electronic items, the bill the second time was eye popping, despite the smash n grab approach. The armed response people chased the thieves across the road and into a dense brush area then they backed out since they could easily get into an indefensible position.

I have known people who have had their safes cut open with everything from hand tools to angle grinders to oxy acetylene torches. If they are confident that no-one is expected home anytime soon there is a lot that one can do.

Thats the whole point of an alarm system that is in some way connected to the outside world. The main objective is to get a response started right away and deny the thieves time. It doesn't stop anyone getting in the building, killing or raping the occupants etc. If you read the tractorbynet.com forum, they have stories of people who have shipping containers broken into because no-one lives on the property. Most of us can't afford a vault.

[tiamat]

jeez... remind me to never move to South Africa.

[supaf1y]

delete

[jm0502]

I went looking, and I know that there either pics or links on this forum that show how a guy was robbed and his safe was broken into. I didn't find it right off.

The thief's used a reciprocating saw and a demolition blade to carve a big hole in the side/top of a large safe. They just reached in and took what they could.

Safes, alarms, lights, everything that you can do will help to slow them down, or make it seem to be not worth the effort. At some point there is a line of diminishing returns. Get the best that you can afford, and go with it.
I cant find the original post but here are the pics.

http://www.arizonashooting.com/v3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=162818

[oldskoolford427]

Ok, I know it CAN be done. But does anyone know of any safes actually being broken into personally? Or Locally? I don't mind protecting my stuff, but I'm not into protecting it from ghosts out of fear, and paying the price. Has anyone used a disk or plasma cutter on a gun safe in real life? What are the odds? I'm thinking cheap safes are 99.999% as good as expensive ones in real life?
- Joe
A buddy of mine had his home broken into they did catch the robbers and in the court he learned that the guys had used the torches from other victums homes to cut into other safes. I have a safe and I KNOW I could cut into just about any safe with a torch or a steel cutting saw and I could be into ANY of them in 10 -15 min without working too hard.

[Roundballer]

I cant find the original post but here are the pics.

http://www.arizonashooting.com/v3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=162818
Yep.... That's the one.

[jm0502]

A buddy of mine had his home broken into they did catch the robbers and in the court he learned that the guys had used the torches from other victums homes to cut into other safes. I have a safe and I KNOW I could cut into just about any safe with a torch or a steel cutting saw and I could be into ANY of them in 10 -15 min without working too hard.
I think you can get some safes with a Hardend plate in it. It wont stop a torch but it will stop most saws.

[tiamat]

Some manufacturers, like Sturdy Safe, offer options like stainless steel panels, which resist cutting with a torch. But they generally only surround the lock area. If you were to cover the entire safe in it, it'd be far too expensive.

[Therealkoop]

Nothing made by stack on is a "safe".

If it isnt bolted down, its 100% useless.

I have an RSC, it will stop 99% of robberies which are smash and grabs. But the general rule is that locks only keep honest people honest. If somebody wants in, they will get in.

But have I heard of people cutting safes open locally? No.

[stftk]

The vast majority of gun safes are made with 12 gauge or thinner steel, they could probably be broken into in a few minutes with tools. Sturdys cost a few hundred more, but are made out of 7 gauge that usually only is available in companies top end offering.

[stftk]

"My house was broken into yesterday broad daylight 3 neighbors home didn't see anything. They got in through my garage door by pulling the manual lever to the door with a coat hanger tossed all the drawers cut a hole in the top of my gun safe took 2 revolvers and my AR15 they had 4 of my other rifles ready to go but did not get to take them. They made quick work of my gun safe they turned it sideways and cut a triangle hole at the top corner to pull everything out. They also got 5 watches my coin collection misc. jewelry some purses of my wife's birth certificate old ID's and SS card that were all in with the coin collection in a wooden box in my closet. I hope they have a gun cleaning accident I hate thieves."

http://s12.postimage.org/feqhn7swd/20120917_174640.jpg

http://s12.postimage.org/f391agcgd/20120917_174645.jpg

[pappabear]

Safes only keep out the honest thieves.

[XDM 40 cal]

"My house was broken into yesterday broad daylight 3 neighbors home didn't see anything. They got in through my garage door by pulling the manual lever to the door with a coat hanger tossed all the drawers cut a hole in the top of my gun safe took 2 revolvers and my AR15 they had 4 of my other rifles ready to go but did not get to take them. They made quick work of my gun safe they turned it sideways and cut a triangle hole at the top corner to pull everything out. They also got 5 watches my coin collection misc. jewelry some purses of my wife's birth certificate old ID's and SS card that were all in with the coin collection in a wooden box in my closet. I hope they have a gun cleaning accident I hate thieves."

http://s12.postimage.org/feqhn7swd/20120917_174640.jpg

http://s12.postimage.org/f391agcgd/20120917_174645.jpg

WOW, someone knew that you had a safe and what was needed to get into it..
Sorry for you loss, i home you had extra ins on you firearms. I hope you have the Ser# for the missing rifles, and anything else your missing...

Keep us posted on what you able to get back.

[Roundballer]

WOW, someone knew that you had a safe and what was needed to get into it..
Sorry for you loss, i home you had extra ins on you firearms. I hope you have the Ser# for the missing rifles, and anything else your missing...

Keep us posted on what you able to get back.
That is the story from the link back in post #41. It was not his loss, it was reported on another forum.

[frmrrod]

I know my brother had his stackon stolen with all of his guns inside. A real safe might not stop someone from breaking into it but it'll sure slow them down and I wouldn't want to try to stop anyone who was big enough to pull mine out of the concrete its anchored to and walk off with it I can hardly move it empty

[MetalKing]

Correct place for a safe is a basement that doesnt have doors. The safe must then be bolted to the cement floor against a wall, and even bolted to the cement wall. Most safes can be opened in about five min with the proper knowledge and tools. Advanced safes rated 30 or 60 will take about 15min but when used with trackers, alarms, and cameras, your risk is very little. If you are protecting 50k+ I have heard people reccomending booby trapping.

For the run of the mill muck, the bolted heavy safe will ensure only cut N runs with access to an electric power dolly which run 5k themselves.

[Cesure]

If they wanted to work for a living, they would have jobs and not need to steal from others. If they have the skills, tools and ability to keep their mouths shut, they're pros and they'll go for a minimum number of big easier scores over a larger number of small more risky and labor intensive scores. So you want to maximize the work and minimize the return. If you get a larger safe and put more valuables in it, you want to make it so strong, heavy and difficult to open without destroying the contents that they won't bother. Or just buy insurance and keep good records offsite.

[Scoop]

This is long but it will run you through the differences quite well. When you see what some of the safes are made out of, it's pretty disappointing. Worth the time to watch and then decide how determined you think a criminal would have to be to get at what you have.Safes aren't about stopping your guns from being stolen by someone set on stealing them. If they come to your house with the right tools and the right attitude, I don't care what kind of safe you have - consider it useless.

Safes are largely theft deterrents. They aim to address crimes of opportunity, not crimes with specific intent of getting what's in the safe. They stop Joe Schmoe, who's broken into your house looking for anything worthwhile to sell or pawn, from picking up rifles and handguns out of your closet.

If you want to protect your firearms 100% without a doubt -- buy enough insurance to replace them.

[joelansing]

I cant find the original post but here are the pics.

http://www.arizonashooting.com/v3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=162818


Original post is here: http://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/showthread.php?81674-F-n-thieves-I-hope-you-Die!!!

Google is your friend, Bing is Obama. Searched for "jewelry some purses of my wife's birth certificate old"

- Joe

[misfitbiker]

I hid my camera recorder WAY up high on a shelf in the back of a bathroom. Put a white towel with Brown Shoe Polish stains in front of it. Nobody wants to get a chair to stand on, then grab a way ugly towel to check out that area..
- Joe

Now EVERYBODY knows where your security camera is so they can avoid it and get into your safe.