Deer, fishing fees headed for change under Snyder plan

[MI-1911]

Deer, fishing fees headed for change under Snyder plan

http://www.mlive.com/environment/index.ssf/2013/02/deer_fishing_fees_headed_for_c.html#incart_river

[Backwoodz]

It will just make more law abiding citizens into law breaking citizens. a $25 fishing license for some guy that just wants to go out twice a year for pan fish will just take the chance he will not get hit.

[Ruger]

I wonder why they didn't address the fees for the youth hunt!

I was watching the biggest Big Buck failure night in history on PBS last week and they had a load of bucks that came from other states and even other countries and few from this years youth hunt. The interviewer asked this one young man why he liked the youth hunt so much and he said "this is my 3rd buck in 3 years and we like it (me and my dad) because we can go out before all the rest of the hunters and get the biggest buck before they do"

The youth hunt should be regulated to them only taking doe's period!

[cmr19xx]

I don't think raising the rates for a deer license from $15 to $30 will keep anyone from getting a tag. The DNR is underfunded and raising the price of a deer tag should help. The number of deer tags sold in MI significantly outnumbers the number of hunting licenses bought for any other species.

I'm curious whether all this money will stay with the DNR or whether Snyder will put it in the general fund to waste.

Regarding youth hunts, I'd be interested to see some statistics. I don't think there are that many large bucks being harvested that weekend to worry about, but I could be wrong.

[sse]

I'm curious whether all this money will stay with the DNR or whether Snyder will put it in the general fund to waste.
Same here.

[TomE]

$25 for an all species fish license is good.

[camaro1776]

I never like paying more however I am not upset about this. As far as more people going without buying a license because of fees I don't think it would matter if the tag was free people will just do it without the tag anyhow, hate to admit but I have before.

Dnr protects something I enjoy and $30 to stock your freezer is still a deal.

[G22]

$25 for an all species fish license is good.

-$3 is really nothing worth talking about.

[Roundballer]

Posted yesterday,
http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=222467

[MSUICEMAN]

if you only fish two days a year, get two daily permits... but if people are losing it over 3 bucks (if it stays in the DNR), its a bad hobby to take up.

[deadhead1911]

I am ok with it as long as it really does get used as intended.

[GPintheMitten]

I don't think raising the rates for a deer license from $15 to $30 will keep anyone from getting a tag. The DNR is underfunded and raising the price of a deer tag should help. The number of deer tags sold in MI significantly outnumbers the number of hunting licenses bought for any other species.

I'm curious whether all this money will stay with the DNR or whether Snyder will put it in the general fund to waste.

Regarding youth hunts, I'd be interested to see some statistics. I don't think there are that many large bucks being harvested that weekend to worry about, but I could be wrong.

All hunting and fishing license fees go in the Game and Fish Fund, which is restricted funding. It can not be used for general purposes. I used to work for the DNR.

[Jackam]

The youth hunt should be regulated to them only taking doe's period!

There is NO NEED for a youth hunt at all.

I didn't have one and it certainly didn't make me not want to hunt. I couldn't WAIT until I was 12 !!!!!!!!! (but I did!)


I am 100% against a special Youth hunt.

[Roundballer]

There is NO NEED for a youth hunt at all.

I didn't have one and it certainly didn't make me not want to hunt. I couldn't WAIT until I was 12 !!!!!!!!! (but I did!)


I am 100% against a special Youth hunt.
I had to wait until I was 14! That is what the law was in 1969.

I had been out hunting for several years prior to that, I just didn't have a gun or a license. That was my "apprenticeship". Learned to track and trail, read sign, spot bedding areas, food and water sources, spot rubs and ruts.

This blind, tree stand and bait pile is not hunting to me.

[Magnum Man]

It's the combination of the increased license fees, vehicle registration fees, gas tax increases and possible sales tax increase that will stagnate the economy, hurt tourism and cause people to make even more cutbacks.

[Leader]

Looking more & more like a tax & spend democrat to me & I voted for him.

[Phelptwan]

Well that's going to pretty much end the whole thing for new hunters. Lets put it this way.

In lower Michigan the most common thing new hunters will do is buy three tags; combo and a doe tag. They will then go hunt for their first outing with a friend on private property.

Now that's $45

Next year it's $90? That's going to dissuade a LOT of new hunters.

It will also piss off us hunters that generally can't get out a whole lot during the season. $90 spent on the possibility of not getting a deer is a helluva waste of money.

[wadevb1]

There is NO NEED for a youth hunt at all.

I didn't have one and it certainly didn't make me not want to hunt. I couldn't WAIT until I was 12 !!!!!!!!! (but I did!)


I am 100% against a special Youth hunt.

I'm in agreement...

As far as rate increae, we hunt and fish cheap enough. I don't mind an increase.

[sparkman10mm]

There is NO NEED for a youth hunt at all.

I didn't have one and it certainly didn't make me not want to hunt. I couldn't WAIT until I was 12 !!!!!!!!! (but I did!)


I am 100% against a special Youth hunt.

I agree 100% also.

[Jackam]

If Snyder wants to raise some immediate revenue, give Michigan hunters the opportunity to buy a lifetime license again.

I would buy one for both my sons, and I'm sure others would too.

As far as the rate increases go, I foresee my two young men not buying a fishing license when the rates go up and I would hazard a guess that they may not buy a small game license as well. Open their wallets today and you will see that the licenses that they have will unfold almost to the point of touching the ground.

Between license fees doubling and gas prices skyrocketing (and Snyder threatening to increase the gas tax even more,) I see a time when a quick trip on a lazy Saturday to run a field for non-existent pheasants will cost far more than the enjoyment of being outside returns.

[fr3db3ar]

I'm curious whether all this money will stay with the DNR or whether Snyder will put it in the general fund to waste.



Anybody who believes this might have a chance of being true hasn't paid attention to history. Take Social Security for example.

They tell you what you want to hear so that you agree......then later change it and to bad so sad.

[Leader]

I don't think raising the rates for a deer license from $15 to $30 will keep anyone from getting a tag. The DNR is underfunded and raising the price of a deer tag should help. The number of deer tags sold in MI significantly outnumbers the number of hunting licenses bought for any other species.

I'm curious whether all this money will stay with the DNR or whether Snyder will put it in the general fund to waste.

Regarding youth hunts, I'd be interested to see some statistics. I don't think there are that many large bucks being harvested that weekend to worry about, but I could be wrong.

Yes, 100% of the money raised by this license increase will stay in the DNR.
However an equal amount (or more) of the money from the general fund that went to the DNR last year will be diverted for something else.

[Quack Addict]

If we have to pay more, give us something in return. Legalizing straight wall cartridges in the current "shotgun" zone for the firearm deer seasons would be nice. Hell, they could even make that part of the same bill as the fee increases...

[Quack Addict]

Also, the rate drop from $28 to $25 for the all species license will benefit some that usually buy it anyway (like me) but a lot of folks that only fish for perch or bass will get stung by the higher fees. Any plan to improve the fish hatcheries or stocking numbers? After years of the DNR shuttering facilities due to lack of funding, with such a cash infusion one would think the trend could be reversed.

As for the DNR starving for cash, with the $30M they "lost" a couple years ago then suddenly rediscovered, they might be able to avoid such fee increases if they simple hired a new accountant.

Don't get me wrong, I think current license fees are a bargain but paying more for less doesn't generally get me excited in a positive fashion.

[brass hat]

I don't think raising the rates for a deer license from $15 to $30 will keep anyone from getting a tag.
These new fee's are literally going to price me right out of hunting and fishing. A lot of people are not going to be able to afford all these increases. My choice will be either start poaching or chose between something else and give up the hunting and fishing,Since I'm a law abiding person good bye outdoors sports.

[Made_in_Michigan]

Dnr protects something I enjoy and $30 to stock your freezer is still a deal.

You should do a lot of reading on the DNR if this is your honest opinion. They are not here to protect anything but revenues and Insurance companies. Geico & State Farm have more influence on DNR policy than Biologists and Hunters.



Sooner or later, this government is going to legislate me into a criminal. Guess I'll have to decide how much I am willing to pay/sacrifice/lay down until that day.
Doesn't look good.

[brass hat]

Sooner or later, this government is going to legislate me into a criminal. Guess I'll have to decide how much I am willing to pay/sacrifice/lay down until that day.
Doesn't look good.
I agree and at the rate we are going I am afraid it won't be very long until that happens one way or another and I'm made into a criminal by default.

[Made_in_Michigan]

I agree and at the rate we are going I am afraid it won't be very long until that happens one way or another and I'm made into a criminal by default.

A year ago if you asked me if I would ever choose to be a criminal, I would have laughed at the question. "Of course not."

A mere year later, I feel a more honest answer is "I hope not."

[Roundballer]

<snip>
Sooner or later, this government is going to legislate me into a criminal. Guess I'll have to decide how much I am willing to pay/sacrifice/lay down until that day.
Doesn't look good.
Well.... This is how the legend of "Robin of Locksley" got its' start. :cheers:

[twodogsanme]

I put these license fees in the same files as taxes , the more you tax the less your going to get .

[Phelptwan]

Sooner or later, this government is going to legislate me into a criminal. Guess I'll have to decide how much I am willing to pay/sacrifice/lay down until that day.
Doesn't look good.

There is no way to rule an innocent men.

[pkuptruck]

You should do a lot of reading on the DNR if this is your honest opinion. They are not here to protect anything but revenues and Insurance companies. Geico & State Farm have more influence on DNR policy than Biologists and Hunters.



Sooner or later, this government is going to legislate me into a criminal. Guess I'll have to decide how much I am willing to pay/sacrifice/lay down until that day.
Doesn't look good.



the new segment of DNR weinnies , (i mean "biologists") dont give a ratts patootie about deer management.. like you said.. its all department revenue..

Seeing how the DEER SHOOTERS (qdm-types) have more influence than the DEER HUNTERS (fair chase) should be your first clue..

the haves vs the have nots..

Private property owners ( deer farmers, QDM's) vs Public land hunters..

[Cackler]

[QUOTE=pkuptruck]
Seeing how the DEER SHOOTERS (qdm-types) have more influence than the DEER HUNTERS (fair chase) should be your first clue..

[QUOTE]


Interesting perspective. Some might say, it is the other way around.

[pkuptruck]

[QUOTE=pkuptruck]
Seeing how the DEER SHOOTERS (qdm-types) have more influence than the DEER HUNTERS (fair chase) should be your first clue..

[QUOTE]


Interesting perspective. Some might say, it is the other way around.



cant see how you could make a case for that...

[Cackler]

[QUOTE=Cackler][QUOTE=pkuptruck]
Seeing how the DEER SHOOTERS (qdm-types) have more influence than the DEER HUNTERS (fair chase) should be your first clue..





cant see how you could make a case for that...


Well, I see it exactly the other way around. Anybody can shoot the first stupid 1.5 year old buck that wanders by but, it takes a hunter to let them walk and be a little more selective in the hunt. The Michigan mentality of "hunters" will never make it possible for most hunters to even see a mature white tail in this state, much less get a shot at one.

[pkuptruck]

[QUOTE=pkuptruck][QUOTE=Cackler]


Well, I see it exactly the other way around. Anybody can shoot the first stupid 1.5 year old buck that wanders by but, it takes a hunter to let them walk and be a little more selective in the hunt. The Michigan mentality of "hunters" will never make it possible for most hunters to even see a mature white tail in this state, much less get a shot at one.


lol..

the recent deer farmers are the mental ones... grow crops.. build a hut.. and wait until bullwinkle wanders in...

true woodsmanship and skill involved there!


fair chase hunters can also elect to "pass" on what farmers term "inferior" deer, but a hunter hunts for the meat aspect... not the "bone" aspect..

qdm is , and always will be, about horns... not the hunt... as there is no hunting involved.. they pick whatever they plant.. and shoot.

fair chase on the other hand, requires a liitle more outdoors involvement than just sitting and playing with the iPhone..
And, if they are good enough to hunt up a deer, it is a skill and ability... and then they can decide to harvest, or not....

planting deer is a lazy mans fortune... and to pretend your something your not.. is a sorry lot in life...

[Cackler]

[QUOTE=Cackler][QUOTE=pkuptruck]


lol..

the recent deer farmers are the mental ones... grow crops.. build a hut.. and wait until bullwinkle wanders in...

true woodsmanship and skill involved there!


fair chase hunters can also elect to "pass" on what farmers term "inferior" deer, but a hunter hunts for the meat aspect... not the "bone" aspect..

But, as often as not, they pull the trigger now don't they?

qdm is , and always will be, about horns... not the hunt... as there is no hunting involved.. they pick whatever they plant.. and shoot.


Exactly how do they "plant" free ranging deer? Alot of folks would like to know how to do that.
fair chase on the other hand, requires a liitle more outdoors involvement than just sitting and playing with the iPhone...

Fair chase is pretty much anything but hunting penned deer isn't it? What is this "outdoors involvement" that is your criterion?

And, if they are good enough to hunt up a deer, it is a skill and ability... and then they can decide to harvest, or not....

"hunt up"...."skill and ability"...what percentage of Michigan licensees do you suppose even have the opportunity to do just that?

planting deer is a lazy mans fortune... and to pretend your something your not.. is a sorry lot in life...


"planting deer" I am still amazed at your apparent lack of understanding on the white tail herd in this state.



Not that it matters but, how many deer did you "hunt up" last fall?

[pkuptruck]

[QUOTE=pkuptruck][QUOTE=Cackler]



Not that it matters but, how many deer did you "hunt up" last fall?


enough to fill my freezer.

equating farming for deer to fair chase is something guys like you will never understand..

I dont care if thats how YOU want to shoot deer, just dont make it manitory for everyone. some folks LIKE to "chase" deer in the woods.. rather than planiting them..

the reason I say planting them, is simple... if you had any inkling ABOUT wildlife.. they go to the food source.. fair chase deer go to acorns, etc... farm raised go to their respective "food plots" .. and qdm guys shoot them as they come in.. not making a judgement on the "sporting" aspect of it.. to each his own... but I DO take offense to these self-rightious ones that feel the need to make all others follow and obey THEIR choice..

just bad juju all the way around...

If you LIKE qdm? fine.. most hunters practice some aspects of it voluntarily anyway... Some dont.. but because QDM WANTS HUGE horns only, doesnt make the rest of us equally as greedy, or pompous...

[fr3db3ar]

Coyote hunting has already about ruined me from deer hunting. If they start raising prices that may seal the deal. In the end they won't make more money.

[Cackler]

[QUOTE=Cackler][QUOTE=pkuptruck]




equating farming for deer to fair chase is something guys like you will never understand..

What qualifies you to ever evaluate my level of comprehension regarding anything, including deer hunting? I know this for certain, you haven't even begun to educate anybody about this deer planting scheme of yours.

I dont care if thats how YOU want to shoot deer, just dont make it manitory for everyone. some folks LIKE to "chase" deer in the woods.. rather than planiting them..

How do you "chase" deer v "planting" them?


the reason I say planting them, is simple... if you had any inkling ABOUT wildlife.. they go to the food source.. fair chase deer go to acorns, etc... farm raised go to their respective "food plots" .. and qdm guys shoot them as they come in.. not making a judgement on the "sporting" aspect of it.. to each his own...



I dare say that you have no inkling about my level of knowledge concerning wildlife.




I will let you in on a little something about deer though. They need to eat and will travel from bedding areas and cover to food sources. During the rut, the bucks do really weird things and some die as a result of their lack of sense. You either know how to hunt them or you don't but the bottom line is, you can be the greatest hunter or chaser in the world and if there isn't anything to chase, your efforts will be futile.

Not everybody has great opportunities and most guys have to make the best of what they have in order to be successful. As a result, they often shoot what they see because there may not be anything better come along. Until the mentality of Michigan hunters changes dramatically, the maturity of the herd is never going to be realized. It is that simple, kill 'em young and they can't grow old.

[RayMich]

Looking more & more like a tax & spend democrat to me & I voted for him.
Notice that the firearm hunters are getting hit with the biggest increases, as much as 100% increase for a basic firearm deer license.

Not only is he more like a tax and spend democrat, but anti-gun as well.

We would have been a hell of a lot better off with Mike Cox as governor...

[Leader]

Notice that the firearm hunters are getting hit with the biggest increases, as much as 100% increase for a basic firearm deer license.

Not only is he more like a tax and spend democrat, but anti-gun as well.

We would have been a hell of a lot better off with Mike Cox as governor...

My bow license goes up just as much.

[Cackler]

My bow license goes up just as much.


Yup.

I buy a combo every year anyway at the same time as other licenses and go for the quantity discount.

While they are messing with the system, they ought to make the fishing license annual time period be Jan 1 through Dec 31st instead of the way it is and also enable sports persons to purchase a new fishing license that is valid even though the other has not expired so that hard water fishers don't get screwed over by the goofy dates.

[pkuptruck]

[QUOTE=pkuptruck][QUOTE=Cackler]


I will let you in on a little something about deer though. They need to eat and will travel from bedding areas and cover to food sources. During the rut, the bucks do really weird things and some die as a result of their lack of sense. You either know how to hunt them or you don't but the bottom line is, you can be the greatest hunter or chaser in the world and if there isn't anything to chase, your efforts will be futile.

Not everybody has great opportunities and most guys have to make the best of what they have in order to be successful. As a result, they often shoot what they see because there may not be anything better come along. Until the mentality of Michigan hunters changes dramatically, the maturity of the herd is never going to be realized. It is that simple, kill 'em young and they can't grow old.


true. but just something that deer farmers use to justify their greediness..

the farmers can pass on smaller bucks they grow with their crops as well. or not.... so that argument stays the same.

my issue is with the deer farmers MANDATING to all other hunters that its "our way, or nothing."..

such as in the upper lower east counties..

[Cackler]

[QUOTE=Cackler][QUOTE=pkuptruck]


true. but just something that deer farmers use to justify their greediness..

the farmers can pass on smaller bucks they grow with their crops as well. or not.... so that argument stays the same.

my issue is with the deer farmers MANDATING to all other hunters that its "our way, or nothing."..

such as in the upper lower east counties..


Quite honestly, I am having a difficult time trying to figure out what you are attempting to point out. Are you saying that deer hunting in agricultural areas is non-sporting?

I still haven't been able to decipher your definition of fair chase either.

Oh well I guess. Seasons, methods of hunting, and bag limits all come into play regarding the health of the herd and hunter satisfaction. Since the deer don't contribute financially, I suspect that hunters and the state are going to have more input into how it shakes out. After all, money talks.

[G22]

IF the Right To Hunt and Fish legislation passes do we still have to PAY to exercise that right?

:hide:

[oldskoolford427]

It's the combination of the increased license fees, vehicle registration fees, gas tax increases and possible sales tax increase that will stagnate the economy, hurt tourism and cause people to make even more cutbacks.

+1
:(

[Leader]

It's the combination of the increased license fees, vehicle registration fees, gas tax increases and possible sales tax increase that will stagnate the economy, hurt tourism and cause people to make even more cutbacks.


But... We got rid of the small business tax, that will have big corporations flocking to MI.

[ParadeDuty]

Yes, 100% of the money raised by this license increase will stay in the DNR.
However an equal amount (or more) of the money from the general fund that went to the DNR last year will be diverted for something else.


And that is EXACTLY how the game is played in government funding. It is not so much the taxes that are being debated "above the table" that you have to worry about, it is the shuffling that goes on "under the table" that require and recieve no public scrutiny that you should be worried about!

[keen one]

Reading through this thread it is no wonder why we sportsmen can't accomplish much. We've muddied the issue with non relavent crap.
Issue: License fees may increase.
Cause: Increasing labor costs, managment, and habitat restoration....

Lets get all of the facts, and the budget figures and have a reasonable discussion as to why license fees should be addressed. The "other states are doing it " is childish and naive.

I spend a crap load of money on property taxes, sporting goods, and time for hunting so an increase in license fee does not appeal to me, however, if adequate enforecement of game laws were to result, I would be game.

I can't begin to count the number of pre-dawn, or post dusk single shot rounds I heard during the bow seasons over the years. It alomost seems to me that residents of the rural areas feel it's their right to take game whenever they feel. My point to this: there may be some benefits to all of us but we may need to pay more.

Lets keep the politicians out of our sport and pay what is needed to keep it around.

[Leader]

Reading through this thread it is no wonder why we sportsmen can't accomplish much. We've muddied the issue with non relavent crap.
Issue: License fees may increase.
Cause: Increasing labor costs, managment, and habitat restoration....

Lets get all of the facts, and the budget figures and have a reasonable discussion as to why license fees should be addressed. The "other states are doing it " is childish and naive.

I spend a crap load of money on property taxes, sporting goods, and time for hunting so an increase in license fee does not appeal to me, however, if adequate enforecement of game laws were to result, I would be game.

I can't begin to count the number of pre-dawn, or post dusk single shot rounds I heard during the bow seasons over the years. It alomost seems to me that residents of the rural areas feel it's their right to take game whenever they feel. My point to this: there may be some benefits to all of us but we may need to pay more.

Lets keep the politicians out of our sport and pay what is needed to keep it around.

Hummmm... I see that a little different.

Issue: License fees may increase.
Cause: Greed...........

Nothing else needed

[Roundballer]

Hummmm... I see that a little different.

Issue: License fees may increase.
Cause: Greed Malfeasance, Corruption, Mismanagement, Governmental Expansion...........

Nothing else needed
FIFY

[CPLHOLDER]

The interviewer asked this one young man why he liked the youth hunt so much and he said "this is my 3rd buck in 3 years and we like it (me and my dad) because we can go out before all the rest of the hunters and get the biggest buck before they do"


That is such a messed up statement! How government intervention intends to "help" but the results are hurting others!

[2571]

All hunting and fishing license fees go in the Game and Fish Fund, which is restricted funding. It can not be used for general purposes. I used to work for the DNR.

So the DNR administered Game & Fish fund isn't used for the DNR 'At risk youth programs'?

The DNR takes litle jd's from Flint & Detroit and pays them to pretend they're picking up trash in the parks.

There's a jillion ways to defeat spending restrictions. Most of them laughable.

I can just see the $M's spent on youth programs on Belle Isle when DNR gets their hands on it.

[langenc]

I don't think raising the rates for a deer license from $15 to $30 will keep anyone from getting a tag. The DNR is underfunded and raising the price of a deer tag should help. The number of deer tags sold in MI significantly outnumbers the number of hunting licenses bought for any other species.

I'm curious whether all this money will stay with the DNR or whether Snyder will put it in the general fund to waste.

Regarding youth hunts, I'd be interested to see some statistics. I don't think there are that many large bucks being harvested that weekend to worry about, but I could be wrong.

There will be many that say-to H with it and just quit hunting..esp when one can set out couple days and weekends and never see a deer up here.

[stevejun]

I can pay $50 a year if I can catch 30 inch largemouth basses every season!

[Buzz_on]

I can't begin to count the number of pre-dawn, or post dusk single shot rounds I heard during the bow seasons over the years. It alomost seems to me that residents of the rural areas feel it's their right to take game whenever they feel.

Ever think it may be people hunting coyotes, racoons, and the sorts? US RURAL folks shoot many critters at all hours.

[Shyster]

I just purchased all of my licenses for the year (except drawings) and the total was $92 and change. Wonder how much it will be next year?

[Moosehead905]

I just purchased all of my licenses for the year (except drawings) and the total was $92 and change. Wonder how much it will be next year?


daaamn, what is a reg. fishing license running?

[Man vs. Fish]

I would support lifetime fishing licenses :), $500 or whatever it would be is a drop in the bucket compared to everything else i buy lol

[Cackler]

Ever think it may be people hunting coyotes, racoons, and the sorts? US RURAL folks shoot many critters at all hours.

Ain't that the truth. The sound of gunshots in the country is nothing new...especially this time of year with possums, skunks, red squirrels...and other pests.

[TomE]

There will be many that say-to H with it and just quit hunting..esp when one can set out couple days and weekends and never see a deer up here.

I'm considering no hunt or fish this season :thup:

I haven't seen a deer in season in 3 years, now huge tracks are in front of my target range and in my compost pile.

[sse]

Ain't that the truth. The sound of gunshots in the country is nothing new...especially this time of year with possums, skunks, red squirrels...and other pests.
Oh, that evil 'gun culture'...what would we do without it...? LOL

[TomE]

Oh, that evil 'gun culture'...what would we do without it...? LOL

I haven't heard many shots in the last few months. I recently put 18 X 2 holes in a 55 gal drum for breathing:bigun2:, and 2 on a soup can. I still haven't learned.

I felt guilty about using 20 rounds of 22lr, when I could have used a drill bit and motor

[Cackler]

I haven't heard many shots in the last few months. I recently put 18 X 2 holes in a 55 gal drum for breathing:bigun2:, and 2 on a soup can. I still haven't learned.

I felt guilty about using 20 rounds of 22lr, when I could have used a drill bit and motor

Use a larger caliber and it won't take so many breather holes. Besides, 22 in the bottom of the barrel doesn't drain well enough

[TomE]

Better than no drain holes. The 22 blazer mushroomed nicely so the holes are about 3/8 "