CPL/CCW Question? Please help!

[mullinsn2000]

I have taken and passed the class on May 2, 2004. I have been told I can still turn in the paperwork and it is fine and I have also been told that it is too old and that I have to take it again. I am wondering which is true. I have two certificates. They are:

NRA Personal Protection in the Home Course

and

NRA Basic Pistol Course

Both were passed on May 2, 2004


Any help will be appreciated.

[Tallbear]

Your certificate is out dated. Some instructors will "re-issue" an updated certificate. If your's won't, you will need to retake the CPL class.

Check this thread for instructors in your area.

[45 acp]

Your certificate is out dated. Some instructors will "re-issue" an updated certificate. If your's won't, you will need to retake the CPL class.

Check this thread for instructors in your area.

I am unable to find anything in the law that says the certificate expires. I also cant find anything that says you must apply for a CPL within a certian time frame after taking the class. Could you please point me to the part of the Michigan CPL laws that says a certificate expires or that you must apply in a given time frame. Thanks

[mullinsn2000]

I would also like to know where it says that it expires. I am not saying you are wrong but I have not seen it. I have been looking for a while (I am off on workers comp so I have nothing else to do) and have not found an answer either way. I called the sherriff office and got the "I am not sure" response. I do not want to have to spend another $200 or so if I do not need to, which I am sure you understand, but I will if I have to. Maybe they make it complicated to find answers so that less people will apply for the CPL and the gun grabbers can continue their assault on our rights, just my opinion of course. I thank both of you for your insight into this and hopefully I can get a clear cut answer in text somewhere.

[fbuckner]

The cert he has now probably has the old "this class complies with yada yada yada" They changed that late in 05.

[Roger Roney]

Tallbear said "outdated," not "expired," and suggested seeing if your instructor will issue an updated one. Rick explained why outdated, they require "complies with the new yada, yada, yada." Good luck.

Roger

[Tallbear]

Your certificate must state ""This course complies with section 5j of 1927 PA 372" as referenced here..... http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2003-2004/publicact/htm/2004-PA-0254.htm

All certificates after this law was pasted must have that statement on the certificate to be "current" with the law.


I would also like to know where it says that it expires. I am not saying you are wrong but I have not seen it. I have been looking for a while (I am off on workers comp so I have nothing else to do) and have not found an answer either way. I called the sherriff office and got the "I am not sure" response. I do not want to have to spend another $200 or so if I do not need to, which I am sure you understand, but I will if I have to. Maybe they make it complicated to find answers so that less people will apply for the CPL and the gun grabbers can continue their assault on our rights, just my opinion of course. I thank both of you for your insight into this and hopefully I can get a clear cut answer in text somewhere.

[mullinsn2000]

Mine says:

"This course complies with the provisions of 1927 PA 372 as amended by 2000 PA 381, section 5j and 2003 PA 719"

Is it the updated one?

I don't want anyone to think I was being rude or saying they were wrong, I just wanted to see it somewhere and I thank everyone who has replied.

[Tallbear]

If you follow the link to the law it is specific to the wording required on the certificate. The law is disignated "PA 254 of 2004" and any class certificate issues before this law is "outdated".

The statement you give from your certificate does not comply with the law.


Mine says:

"This course complies with the provisions of 1927 PA 372 as amended by 2000 PA 381, section 5j and 2003 PA 719"

Is it the updated one?

I don't want anyone to think I was being rude or saying they were wrong, I just wanted to see it somewhere and I thank everyone who has replied.

[mullinsn2000]

I must be stupid because I read all the things on that link and it looks like my certificate meets all their requirements. I just don't want to pay the $105 to file and then after a few months I get denied the permit and they say it is not valid, but I also do not want to pay to take the class again if it is not needed. I can take a pic of the cert. if there are any instructors on here or anyone in law enforcement that can tell me if it is good.

[Tallbear]

You stated you took your class in May of 2004. The law states..........

(c) The program provides a certificate of completion that states the program complies with the requirements of this section and that the individual successfully completed the course, and that contains the printed name and signature of the course instructor. Not later than October 1, 2004, the certificate of completion shall contain the statement, "This course complies with section 5j of 1927 PA 372."

The gun board can not accept a certificate that does not comply with the law.

(5) Beginning October 1, 2004, a concealed weapons licensing board shall require that a certificate of completion contain the statement, "This course complies with section 5j of 1927 PA 372.".

The law is specific on the exact wording required.

If you had applied before October or 2004, your certificate would have been valid.



I have taken and passed the class on May 2, 2004. I have been told I can still turn in the paperwork and it is fine and I have also been told that it is too old and that I have to take it again. I am wondering which is true. I have two certificates. They are:

NRA Personal Protection in the Home Course

and

NRA Basic Pistol Course

Both were passed on May 2, 2004


Any help will be appreciated.

[mullinsn2000]

I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is everything I read on that page that my certificate is supposed to say, it says. I guess I am not understanding what is on that page that is not on my certificate.

[Roger Roney]

I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is everything I read on that page that my certificate is supposed to say, it says. I guess I am not understanding what is on that page that is not on my certificate.Your certificate, as you quoted, does NOT read; "This course complies with section 5j of 1927 PA 372."

Is your instructor still in business? Check with them if they will update it for you.

Roger

[mullinsn2000]

It says:

This course complies with the provisions of 1927 PA 372 as amended by 2000 PA 381, section 5j and 2003 PA 719

It looks the same to me.

[KayL]

Must be verbatim... just ask for a new certificate, free.

[mullinsn2000]

I am having trouble locating the instructor. She did the class work out of her home. I have the instructor # just do not know where to go to look up her info. I checked the NRA website with no luck. I guess I will just google it and see if I can get a phone # or address or something. Thanks to everyone who replied here.

[mullinsn2000]

Also you guys seem to know your stuff so I will ask if you guys know where the satellite office is in Wyandotte where I can file the paperwork and get figerprints taken? I did find an email address for the instructor and I am waiting for a response. Once again all your help has been appreciated.

[KayL]

She did the class work out of her home.
Can you go knock on her door or did she move?

[Tallbear]

Not in Wyandotte...........It's in Westland.

Wayne County Sheriff Road Patrol Office on Henry Ruff just north of Michigan Ave. . Henry Ruff is located between Merriman And Middlebelt.
County Clerk has an Annex Office in the lobby area.





Also you guys seem to know your stuff so I will ask if you guys know where the satellite office is in Wyandotte where I can file the paperwork and get figerprints taken? I did find an email address for the instructor and I am waiting for a response. Once again all your help has been appreciated.

[mullinsn2000]

Meant Westland, not sure why I put Wyandotte. Can't go knock on her door because I do not remember where her house is. I live in Dearborn Heights and she was somewhere near 26 mile and I-94, not close at all. Thanks!

[KayL]

Hope the email works... good luck.

[45 acp]

Tallbear
I am hearing that most counties wont except a certificate that is more than one year old. Assuming that the class was taken after October 2004 is there any legal standing for refusing to accept a certificate just cause it is more than a year old?

[Tallbear]

There is no legal exception for accepting a certificate that has all the correct information on it. All certificates, including those over one year old, are valid for obtaining a CPL.

I know of no county not accepting a valid certificate. If you can get specifics as to which counties are not accepting the certificate it would help. Thanks

[mullinsn2000]

UPDATE:

She emailed me back and is going to talk to the attorney that handles the legal portion of the class and she what he has to say.

[45 acp]

There is no legal exception for accepting a certificate that has all the correct information on it. All certificates, including those over one year old, are valid for obtaining a CPL.

I know of no county not accepting a valid certificate. If you can get specifics as to which counties are not accepting the certificate it would help. Thanks

Thanks I will try to verify the info I have and let you know if it proves true

[fbuckner]

Those certs from 2004 wouldnt be valid anymore becaus of the old verbage. Therefor an updated cert with the new wording must be what is turned in to the clerk.

[mullinsn2000]

Yes I see now that the wording is a little different although it has the exact same words just in a different order. I think the other persons question was regarding a cert. that was after the law changed in 2004 with the proper wording. They wanted to know if it is still accepted. I have heard from people that you only have 6 months to file and others I have heard a year. can't find anything solid on the website.

[LivoniaDan]

Questions - for other clarification purposes -----

T - F - (1) - - - This only applies to NEW CPL's?
My cert has old wording.... but I used it for the original and one renewal so far...
no renewal needed until 2010 for me....

T - F - (2) - - - New renewal dates are now tied to birthday, not application date?
My renewal is 4-2010 - next renewal should be for an extra 7 months (November Birthday)

I have to admit.... I don't keep up on this stuff like I used to....or like I SHOULD!!!!

EDIT TO CLARIFY

[PhotoTom]

Questions - for other clarification purposes -----

T - F - (1) - - - This only applies to NEW CPL's?
My cert has old wording.... but I used it for the original and one renewal so far...
no renewal needed until 2010 for me....

T - F - (2) - - - New renewal dates are now tied to birthday, not application date?
My renewal is 4-2010 - next renewal should be for an 7 months (November Birthday)

I have to admit.... I don't keep up on this stuff like I used to....or like I SHOULD!!!!

1 - True
2 - The next time you renew, your license will have an issue date identical to your current expiration date. However, the new license's expiration date will be on your birthday proceeding the date five years from the issue date.

For example:
John's current CPL expires February 20, 2010. John renews within 1 year prior to that date. When John's new CPL is issued, the issue date will be 2/20/2010. John's birthday is January 20th, therefore, his new CPL will have an expiration date of 1/20/2015. John will have lost 31 days off his 2010 renewal license.

Suzie's current CPL expires February 20, 2010. Suzie renews within 1 year prior to that date. When Suzie's new CPL is issued, the issue date will be 2/20/2010. Suzie's birthday is February 21st, therefore, her new CPL will have an expiration date of 2/21/2014. Suzie will have lost 364 days off her 2010 renewal license.

Suzie and John pay the same price for their 2010 renewal. After that renewal cycle license, their subsequent CPL's will be valid for 5 years each cycle and will continue to have an issue date and expiration date on their respective birthdays.

In DAN'S case...the 2010 license will be issued on 4/xx/2010 and will expire on 11/xx/2014. DAN will have lost approx. 5 months off his 2010 renewal license duration, but then will be back on the 5 year plan thereafter.

[LivoniaDan]

1 - True
2 - The next time you renew, your license will have an issue date identical to your current expiration date. However, the new license's expiration date will be on your birthday proceeding the date five years from the issue date.

In DAN'S case...the 2010 license will be issued on 4/xx/2010 and will expire on 11/xx/2014. DAN will have lost approx. 5 months off his 2010 renewal license duration, but then will be back on the 5 year plan thereafter.That's what I get for being an optimist...

Thanks for the reply

[Trebor]

I have heard from people that you only have 6 months to file and others I have heard a year. can't find anything solid on the website.


There is nothing in state law that says the certificates "expire" after six months, or one year, or whatever. Any valid cert should be accepted (assuming it has the proper "this class complies with..." wording(.

However, if any particular county rejects a certificate because it's "too old" per their county policy, and the applicant can't talk them into accepting it, the only other option would be legal action. Due to the expense it would probably be cheaper at that point just to retake the class.

[fbuckner]

If the cert has the old this class complies with verbage then in a sence its to old and would not be accepted. Talking them into it would not be a proper option nor recommendation. Taking the class again would be the proper route and it would get you caught up on some of the legalities that have changed.

[antigunnut]

You are right rick, if it is more then a year old then they have to retake the class. If the Instructor gives another cert then the Instructor could be held accountable. Even with the NRA because the course has changed.




If the cert has the old this class complies with verbage then in a sence its to old and would not be accepted. Talking them into it would not be a proper option nor recommendation. Taking the class again would be the proper route and it would get you caught up on some of the legalities that have changed.

[Tallbear]

You are right rick, if it is more then a year old then they have to retake the class. If the Instructor gives another cert then the Instructor could be held accountable. Even with the NRA because the course has changed.

Where are you getting information on the "more than a year old " statement?

[Dave Edwards]

Questions - for other clarification purposes -----

T - F - (1) - - - This only applies to NEW CPL's?
My cert has old wording.... but I used it for the original and one renewal so far...
no renewal needed until 2010 for me....

I'm not sure why you would use the certificate more than once. For renewals, a class is not required nor a certificate of completion. At the time of renewal, you sign for yourself stating that you've gone to the range in the 6 months prior to renewing and that you've spent at least 3 hours reviewing the course materials. Your original certificate has no bearing on the firing range and review requirements and is not related to the renewal process.

[LivoniaDan]

IIRC - They asked for a Cert. when I renewed..... Now it was a little while back though...
Maybe my memory is fuzzy....

[Dave Edwards]

IIRC - They asked for a Cert. when I renewed..... Now it was a little while back though...
Maybe my memory is fuzzy....

Your memory is probably pretty good. The clerks don't always know what's going on.

The last time that I renewed, the clerk asked me where I "took my renewal class". I said, "In my living room, by myself". She gave me a dirty look and then wanted a receipt showing that I was at the range. I told her that I went a few times or more each month, worked at least once per month at the range, and fired for more than an hour each time that I went. She looked a little confused, and then wrote down a date that I verbally provided as to when I went to the range.

She really wanted me to provide her with papers. I guess that if she'd ever take the time to actually read the renewal application, she'd see what is required.

For people renewing, I suppose that too many people think that they have to take a "renewal class" or they're not doing it right or something. The clerks then get used to seeing worthless certificates.

It also amazes me that folks can read what the application says, but they still think that they have to take another class. When "instructors" don't always tell folks that they can do it on their own and instead make another $80 - $100 off of each person by putting them through another "class", that makes me sick, too.

[Trebor]

If the cert has the old this class complies with verbage then in a sence its to old and would not be accepted. Talking them into it would not be a proper option nor recommendation.

I agree that if the cert has the wrong "complies with" verbage the student shouldn't try to talk the clerk into accepting it.

What I meant was in a case where the cert has the correct "complies with" verbage, and is being rejected just because the class date was more then one year ago, there is no valid reason for the rejection and the student should try to to explain that to the people at the clerk's office.

Granted, that isn't the case with the original poster's certificate. His has the wrong wording.

This does come up fairly often and often the certificates have the correct verbage, even though they are a year old. There is nothing in the law that says that certificates "expire" after one year, assuming the verbage is correct. Any county clerk's office that says otherwise is wrong. The problem is if you can't convince them they are wrong, the cheapest option is to retake the class.

[fbuckner]

I agree Dave there are alot of instructors out there that push the whole "if you want a renewal course we only charge $75 dollars" All they need is range time. I extend to my students that if they ever want to stop in a class for a legal refresher they can. But they would have to pay their share of the bill which is like $10. Those instructors who push a non required renewal class are only money hoards and are only in it for the money and nothing else. they are mear theives and ordinary predators

[mullinsn2000]

FBUCKNER:

My cert. is outdated. From what I have been told it only has to do with the legal portion. My question is could I just pay for the legal portion, or do I need to take the entire class over? Thanks!

[antigunnut]

I have to ask one question Did you have a one day class?
You should retake the class, I will give it to you for the cost of the book and range. If you have the time.




I have taken and passed the class on May 2, 2004. I have been told I can still turn in the paperwork and it is fine and I have also been told that it is too old and that I have to take it again. I am wondering which is true. I have two certificates. They are:

NRA Personal Protection in the Home Course

and

NRA Basic Pistol Course

Both were passed on May 2, 2004


Any help will be appreciated.

[mullinsn2000]

I am on workers comp., all I have is time, lol. No it was a Two day in class and two days on the range.

[antigunnut]

I have a class this sat. if you would like to come to it




I am on workers comp., all I have is time, lol. No it was a Two day in class and two days on the range.

[mullinsn2000]

Send me a PM with the location and price and I will see if I can talk the wife into letting me go. Thanks a lot!

[UTPD#5]

Send me a PM with the location and price and I will see if I can talk the wife into letting me go. Thanks a lot!

Mullinsn2000 we have a couple classes planned for the next few weeks...if you are unable to connect up with Kerry (antigunnut) shoot me an email and we will be glad to assist you.

Garry

[mullinsn2000]

Thanks! There are a lot of helpful and friendly people on this forum.