HB 4262 prohibitions against carrying certain weapons

[Tallbear]

HB 4262 of 2013 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-4262)
Crimes; weapons; prohibitions against carrying certain weapons; revise. Amends secs. 226, 227 & 231 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.226 et seq.).
Last Action: 2/14/2013 referred to Committee on Tourism

[45/70fan]

Is this doing away with the prohibition of carrying a double edged knife?

[Jack-w-1911]

I'm just a layman; but this looks like anti open carry legislation. Correct?

ETA: I guess I should re-read the bill.

[Roundballer]

Very similar to a bill that failed last year, some good, some bad. The last bill also repealed switch blade bans, this one doesn't.

If 1=bad, and 5=good, with 3=dead center, this is about 2.5....

[Leader]

Looks to me like it says carrying a knife of any size is a felony unless you can PROVE it is a "tool" that you need that day for your job or hobby.
Carrying a pocket knife just because will be illegal.

I vote NO!

[Leader]

......................

[Roundballer]

I think that you are miss-reading this.

Looks to me like it says carrying a knife of any size is a felony unless you can PROVE it is a "tool" that you need that day for your job or hobby.
Carrying a pocket knife just because will be illegal.

I vote NO!
The changes in 227, that call out the exceptions, states that it doesn't apply for those exceptions. It would still be the prosecutors job to prove that you didn't fit the exception.

The changes in the language of 226 does open it up to folding knives, but maintains the "with intent" language, and unfortunately drops the length phrase.


Looks to me like it says (Sec.227) carrying a knife of any size is a felony unless you can PROVE it is a "tool" that you need that day for your job or hobby.
Carrying a pocket knife just because will be illegal.
The language in 227 is specifically about "fixed blade", carrying "concealed" or "in a vehicle". It does not apply to folding pocket knives.

I agree, this should NOT pass the way it is. I really do want the "hobby" exception, but not at the sacrifice being proposed.

The third section of law being modified 231 has nothing to do with the changes in the other two.

This bill should also have a preemption for knives added to 123.1102.

[Leader]

I think that you are miss-reading this.

The changes in 227, that call out the exceptions, states that it doesn't apply for those exceptions. It would still be the prosecutors job to prove that you didn't fit the exception.

The changes in the language of 226 does open it up to folding knives, but maintains the "with intent" language, and unfortunately drops the length phrase.


The language in 227 is specifically about "fixed blade", carrying "concealed" or "in a vehicle". It does not apply to folding pocket knives.

I agree, this should NOT pass the way it is. I really do want the "hobby" exception, but not at the sacrifice being proposed.

The third section of law being modified 231 has nothing to do with the changes in the other two.

This bill should also have a preemption for knives added to 123.1102.


snip......or any other OBJECT DESIGNED, MANUFACTURED, OR
4 INTENDED TO BE USED TO CAUSE DEATH OR INJURY TO ANY PERSON,...snip

That looks to me like it pretty much covers any knife, folding or not.

[Roundballer]

snip......or any other OBJECT DESIGNED, MANUFACTURED, OR 4 INTENDED TO BE USED TO CAUSE DEATH OR INJURY TO ANY PERSON,...snip That looks to me like it pretty much covers any knife, folding or not.
You missed a word in triming out the bolds and strikes:


Sec. 227. (1) A person shall not carry a double-edged nonfolding knife of any length, or any other such object designed, manufactured, or intended to be used to cause death or injury to any person, concealed on or about his or her person or, whether concealed or otherwise, in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person. This subsection does not apply to any of the following:
That single word limits it to other items that meet the same criteria.

[Kaos&Meyhem]

What does anything in this bill have to do with tourism ?

[Quaamik]

The way I read it, it would make carrying a pocketknife a felony:


Sec. 227. (1) A person shall not carry a double-edged nonfolding knife of any length, or any other such object designed, manufactured, or intended to be used to cause death or injury to any person,
concealed on or about his or her person or, whether concealed or otherwise, in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person. This subsection does not apply to any of the following:

(a) An object carried by the person in his or her dwelling house or place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

(b) An object carried in transit between locations described in subdivision (a) that, unless the object is carried for a purpose
described in subdivision (c), is securely encased and is not readily accessible for immediate use.

(c) An object carried for hunting, fishing, or trapping purposes or for use as a tool in the course of the person's occupation or hobby, if that hobby reasonably requires the use of that object.


Th way I read it, IF you wanted to carry a pocket knife for work you would need to case it or lock it in a glove box on the way there and back. If you wanted to carry it for a hobby, you would also have to be ready to show how the hobby "required" it. Re-enacting doesn't "require" you to have a weapon, you can use a dummy weapon just as well (blunted, plastic or wood blade). Camping doesn't "require" you to carry a knife, at best it's a useful tool that, unless you get lost, you can leave in camp. Hiking could "require" it, but not require you have immediate access (i.e. carry it in your pack out of reach - if you "need" it, you take off your pack to get it.)



We need a bill that would treat knives, axes, swords, impact weapons and such the same as a gun for carry. Preemption statewide, open carry legal and protected under the RKBA, concealed carry of anything with a CPL, and an exception for folding pocket knives carried concealed as "non weapons". Ideally, it would also allow folding and fixed blade knives of any size to be carried concealed as long as there was no intent to use one illegally.

[Crow Buster]

Every session they introduce more bills with even more complicated weasle wording. I would think most would be happy if instead of continuing to introduce junk bills, they would just repeal the original knee jerk laws that do nothing for public safety in the first place.

CB

[luckless]

Every session they introduce more bills with even more complicated weasle wording. I would think most would be happy if instead of continuing to introduce junk bills, they would just repeal the original knee jerk laws that do nothing for public safety in the first place.

CB
Lawmakers are, often, egomaniacs. If you repeal a law you are destroying the legacy of the author and their party. This is a problem that is truly bipartisan.

[Crow Buster]

Lawmakers are, often, egomaniacs. If you repeal a law you are destroying the legacy of the author and their party. This is a problem that is truly bipartisan.


Agreed.


CB

[Tallbear]

Tourism, Rep. Peter Pettalia, Chair

DATE: Thursday, February 28, 2013

TIME: 9:00 AM

PLACE: Room 327, House Office Building, Lansing, MI

AGENDA:
HB 4262 Foster Crimes; weapons; prohibitions against carrying certain weapons; revise. (Testimony Only)

Presentation given by Ann Arbor Area Convention and Visitors Bureau

[damnyankee20]

Looks to me like it says carrying a knife of any size is a felony unless you can PROVE it is a "tool" that you need that day for your job or hobby.
Carrying a pocket knife just because will be illegal.

I vote NO!

Section 226: A a person who intends to use a firearm, razor, or knife (or any other weapon/instrument - i.e., baseball bat) against another person will be guilty of a felony, 5 years in prison, and/or a $2,500 fine.

[This SHOULD READ "with intent to do bodily harm" - not sure why that was omitted...secondly, what's this "And OR" business? $2,500 to these criminals' drug dealing buddies is chump change, so make them do the 5 years!]

Section 227 (1): I think you are correct about the knife concern. Get rid of 227 (1) - knives are covered in Section 226 above.

Section 227 (2) & (3): Obsolete because of the D.C. vs Heller case ruling stating We the People can keep and bear arms outside the home. I believe there is a conceal carry license case snaking its way up the Supreme Court right now - I thought it was one of the plantiffs in the original Heller vs D.C. case who is an attorney and avid target shooter who was challenging the Constitutionality of the CPL "tax" (or fee).

Section 234 (2): I'm not sure what this is referring to, but its word semantics from "is not applicable" to "DOES not APPLY.

[Roundballer]

Section 226: A a person who intends to use a firearm, razor, or knife (or any other weapon/instrument - i.e., baseball bat) against another person will be guilty of a felony, 5 years in prison, and/or a $2,500 fine.

[This SHOULD READ "with intent to do bodily harm" - not sure why that was omitted...secondly, what's this "And OR" business? $2,500 to these criminals' drug dealing buddies is chump change, so make them do the 5 years!]No, it is worded the way it needs to be. The phrase is "with intent to use the same unlawfully". That would include intending to threaten or use as a weapon during a robbery. If you limit it to only the intent to do bodily harm, then using it for other illegal activities would in itself not be illegal. And.. the $2500 or 5 years, could also be BOTH, it is left up to the judge to determine the "degree".


Section 227 (1): I think you are correct about the knife concern. Get rid of 227 (1) - knives are covered in Section 226 above.

Section 227 (2) & (3): Obsolete because of the D.C. vs Heller case ruling stating We the People can keep and bear arms outside the home. I believe there is a conceal carry license case snaking its way up the Supreme Court right now - I thought it was one of the plantiffs in the original Heller vs D.C. case who is an attorney and avid target shooter who was challenging the Constitutionality of the CPL "tax" (or fee).
Sec 227 ONLY covers "a double-edged nonfolding knife of any length, or any other such object". It is NOT all inclusive of ALL knives.
The Heller decision was about firearms, not knives, it would take another case to extend the definitions. Non-starter.


Section 234 (2): I'm not sure what this is referring to, but its word semantics from "is not applicable" to "DOES not APPLY.
You only caught a small portion of syntax clean up in that portion. The real change in that section is about clarification of authorization in a "youth training facility". But that is also just syntax clean-up.

[Leader]

Snip....................................

Sec 227 ONLY covers "a double-edged nonfolding knife of any length, or any other such object". It is NOT all inclusive of ALL knives.
The Heller decision was about firearms, not knives, it would take another case to extend the definitions. Non-starter.

Snip......................


Sec. 227. (1) A person shall not carry a double-edged nonfolding knife of any length, or any other such object designed, manufactured, or intended to be used to cause death or injury to any person,
concealed on or about his or her person or, whether concealed or otherwise, in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person. This subsection does not apply to any of the following:

It's been a LONG time since I took English but that comma along with the "or" means to me that things other then just double edged non folding knives are being addressed here.

[Roundballer]

Yes, quite frankly they intend to include "other such objects".

The word "such" is VERY important. It limits those objects to the previous description.


such
/səCH/
Adjective


Of the type previously mentioned: "I have been involved in many such courses".
Of the type about to be mentioned: "no such thing as a free lunch"; "organized in such a way that it can be run by two adults".


Then, after the description of the object, they place the restriction of the action, ie, carrying concealed or in a vehicle, concealed or not.
There is nothing about possession, and they give exceptions, and procedures for those exceptions.

I think that this is poorly written, and don't support it, but too many aren't comprehending what it does say.

[Leader]

Yes, quite frankly they intend to include "other such objects".

The word "such" is VERY important. It limits those objects to the previous description.


Then, after the description of the object, they place the restriction of the action, ie, carrying concealed or in a vehicle, concealed or not.
There is nothing about possession, and they give exceptions, and procedures for those exceptions.

I think that this is poorly written, and don't support it, but too many aren't comprehending what it does say.

That seems to be me.
I see the word "such" as referring to the word "knife", not "double edged".
And if I can't understand it I'm sure at least some police officers will "misunderstand" to allow them to make your life miserable if they so choose.

[Roundballer]

That seems to be me.
I see the word "such" as referring to the word "knife", not "double edged".
And if I can't understand it I'm sure at least some police officers will "misunderstand" to allow them to make your life miserable if they so choose.
I freely admit that it is poorly written, and WILL be misinterpreted.

From the two phrases: "Knife" is the match to "object", they are the "subjects".
"double edged", "nonfolding", and "any length" are the descriptions of the type, "such" would have to closely follow the previous descriptions.

There is a "knife" from the 16th century, it is properly a "stiletto", even though that word has been stretched to fit "other" knives. It is also known as "main gauche" or "left hand". It has no cutting edge, it is (was) used as a shield and strictly as a stabbing weapon. I think that is the type of thing they are trying to include. It, the "main gauche" is not an exact fit, but is covered by more than one "descriptor", basically a "stabbing" instrument.

Again, this poorly written, and I don't support it. I really, really want the "hobby" exemption, but not at the price of the other language.

[Tallbear]

Tourism, Rep. Peter Pettalia, Chair

DATE: Thursday, March 07, 2013

TIME: 9:00 AM

PLACE: Room 327, House Office Building, Lansing, MI

AGENDA:
HB 4262 (Rep. Foster) Crimes; weapons; prohibitions against carrying certain weapons; revise.

HB 4299 (Rep. Bumstead) Natural resources; other; counties eligible to authorize off-road vehicles on road shoulders; extend to entire state and eliminate sunset. (Testimony Only)

Presentations:
Michigan Department of Natural Resources on Dredging
Michigan Boating Industries Association
Michigan Steelhead and Salmon Fishermen"s Association

[Ther_Richardson]

What a piece of waste.

[Walther]

I've been carrying a Swiss Army knife for over 30 years. I can't imagine being without it.

The probem with this bill is that even though it'd be up to the prosecutor/judge to determine if I carried it with intent, I'd still have to hire a lawyer to defend myself. That's a helluvalot of risk to carry a small tool that I use almost daily.

I'm not even sure why this bill has been introduced. It at least needs to retain the 3" or less language.

[Leader]

Why do our legislators think we NEED this new law?

I think they are afraid if they don't pass new laws, we'll think we don't need them.

They should spend their time looking at the laws we have & repealing most of them.

[G22]

KILL THIS BILL.

It's gotten too far already.

[Tallbear]

HB 4262 of 2013 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-4262)
Crimes; weapons; prohibitions against carrying certain weapons; revise. Amends secs. 226, 227 & 231 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.226 et seq.).
Last Action: 3/6/2013 referred to second reading

[shoxroxice]

The only knife laws I would support are State pre-emption, and carrying whichever blade is best suited to your task, if you can carry a gun why in the world of reasonable logic are knife laws so damned complicated? It's still illegal to cause someone harm not in defense of yourself.

[G22]

Has anyone contacted their Reps about this? Or are we just going to sit back & let this happen?

Because it keeps moving forward.

[Tallbear]

HB 4262 of 2013 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-4262)
Crimes; weapons; prohibitions against carrying certain weapons; revise. Amends secs. 226, 227 & 231 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.226 et seq.).
Last Action: 3/13/2013 placed on third reading

[luckless]

Has anyone contacted their Reps about this? Or are we just going to sit back & let this happen?

Because it keeps moving forward.
Spoke with mine, but he is the sponsor of the bill. They tried to assure me that at the end of the day, this will give more freedom for the "good guys" and higher penalties for "the bad guys". I pointed out that it might be misinterpreted in a way that would make the knife laws more strict. The reply was that this law is being misinterpreted anyway so it won't be any worse than it is now.

They would not share with me the organizations or individuals opposed to knives or the freedom to own one. No clue was given as to who was scared that knife collectors might obtain an antique switch blade or that reenactors might go on a sabre or sword rampage. I have a sneaking suspicion that the problem is our governor. He won't sign it unless it is more strict than it is now. It seems Rick Snyder and the RINOs in Lansing are hell-bent on closing that pesky "bayonet loophole".

[G22]

:facepalm:

[DRSpaulding]

I carry a Benchmade tanto folder in my right pocket, Browning in the left, a small Swiss Army knife in my left thigh pocket and a small multi-tool in the right. I use one or the other every day. I've never had any issues from LEO's in my area about them but if I go out of county I get worried.

[Quaamik]

For some unknown reason, politicians and cops are far more afraid of a knife than of a gun.

As for the heller and McDonald cases, while the objects under question were pistols, it has been readily interperted to apply to all guns by most who think on the subject. It would likely require another rullign to expand its enforcement regarding other types of guns (such as AR-15s) but that is because we have a lot of judges and prosecutors who want to interpert rights as narrowly as possible. Since the term in the 2nd amendment and in the Michigan constitution is "arms", and the actual term used in Heller and McDonald is "arms", it should be just as easily abe to be expanded to knives as AR-15s.

[Tallbear]

HB 4262 of 2013 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-4262)
Crimes; weapons; prohibitions against carrying certain weapons; revise. Amends secs. 226, 227 & 231 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.226 et seq.).
Last Action: 4/9/2013 transmitted

[Tallbear]

HB 4262 of 2013 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-4262)
Crimes; weapons; prohibitions against carrying certain weapons; revise. Amends secs. 226, 227 & 231 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.226 et seq.).
Last Action: 4/10/2013 REFERRED TO COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY

[Kaeto]

This bill needs killed and fast.

[shoxroxice]

The bill as it is written seems like a wasted opportunity to me.
It does not cover pre-emption.
It does not even grant people with CPL an exception to carry a knife.
IMO it does not do much to help with law abiding daily carry of a knife, and seems to me the burden of proof is on the carrier to prove the purpose of carry.

[Tallbear]

COMMITTEE: Judiciary

DATE: Tuesday, May 28, 2013

TIME: 3:30 PM

PLACE: Room 110, Farnum Building, 125 W. Allegan Street, Lansing, MI 48933

PHONE: Lauren Michalak (373-5323), Committee Clerk

AGENDA

SB 300 Sen. Caswell Criminal procedure; defenses; statewide standards and accountability measures of trial-level indigent criminal defense services; implement, and create the Michigan indigent defense commission act.

SB 301 Sen. Caswell Criminal procedure; other; appointment of counsel to indigent person charged with felony; modify.

HB 4262 Rep. Foster Crimes; weapons; prohibitions against carrying certain weapons; revise.

[Tallbear]

HB 4262 of 2013 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-4262)
Crimes; weapons; prohibitions against carrying certain weapons; revise. Amends secs. 226, 227 & 231 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.226 et seq.).
Last Action: 5/28/2013 Analysis File Added

[Quaamik]

Reading the analysis, this bill needs to die and fast.

The exemption that allows anyone who wants to to carry a pocket knife (the 3 inch rule) goes away.

It subtly redefines knives. Rather than our current language that forces prosecutors to show intent to use a folding knife as a weapon (if over 3 inches), the law classifies a knife as a weapon unless the person accused can show it's not. The way I read it police stopping a person under the current law would have to have some reasonable suspicion a folding knife was intended as a weapon in order to make an arrest / prosecution stick, and the accused was innocent unless proved they intended it as a weapon. The new bill would assume it is a weapon, and the accused would have to show it was used for hunting, or as a tool necessary for a hobby or work. In other words, guilty until proven innocent.

On a 1 - 5 scale, this comes in at 0

[Quaamik]

e-mail sent to my senator.

[G22]

Reading the analysis, this bill needs to die and fast.

The exemption that allows anyone who wants to to carry a pocket knife (the 3 inch rule) goes away.

It subtly redefines knives. Rather than our current language that forces prosecutors to show intent to use a folding knife as a weapon (if over 3 inches), the law classifies a knife as a weapon unless the person accused can show it's not. The way I read it police stopping a person under the current law would have to have some reasonable suspicion a folding knife was intended as a weapon in order to make an arrest / prosecution stick, and the accused was innocent unless proved they intended it as a weapon. The new bill would assume it is a weapon, and the accused would have to show it was used for hunting, or as a tool necessary for a hobby or work. In other words, guilty until proven innocent.

On a 1 - 5 scale, this comes in at 0

I agree 100%

I have already contacted my gun grabbing anti-freedom Senator on this issue.

[RSF]

I agree 100%

I have already contacted my gun grabbing anti-freedom Senator on this issue.



Wonder what Mcrgo has to say

[G22]

Wonder what Mcrgo has to say

/crickets

[luckless]

Wonder what Mcrgo has to say
MSP hasn't told them yet.

[Tallbear]

COMMITTEE: Judiciary

DATE: Tuesday, June 11, 2013

TIME: 2:30 PM

PLACE: Room 110, Farnum Building, 125 W. Allegan Street, Lansing, MI 48933

PHONE: Lauren Michalak (373-5323), Committee Clerk


AGENDA

SB 105 Sen. Schuitmaker Criminal procedure; DNA; collection of DNA samples at time of arrest for committing or attempting to commit a felony offense; provide for in DNA identification profiling system.

SB 106 Sen. Schuitmaker Criminal procedure; DNA; collection of DNA samples at time of arrest for committing or attempting to commit a felony offense; provide for in probate code of 1939.

SB 107 Sen. Jones Criminal procedure; DNA; collection of DNA samples at time of arrest for committing a felony or attempting to commit a felony offense; provide for in Michigan penal code.

HB 4262 Rep. Foster Crimes; weapons; prohibitions against carrying certain weapons; revise.

SB 410 Sen. Schuitmaker Law enforcement; other; certain records of probation to be provided to the Michigan commission on law enforcement standards; require.

SB 411 Sen. Schuitmaker Law enforcement; other; Michigan commission on law enforcement standards (MCOLES); create, and provide for powers and duties of that commission.

SB 412 Sen. Schuitmaker Law enforcement; funds; administration of Michigan justice training fund; revise to reflect changes made under the Michigan commission on law enforcement standards act.

HB 4613 Rep. O'Brien Housing; landlord and tenants; requirement for lawful reentry by landlord; modify in case of death of tenant.

SB 325 Sen. Jones Children; abduction; uniform child abduction prevention act; create.

[Tallbear]

HB 4262 of 2013 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-4262)
Crimes; weapons; prohibitions against carrying certain weapons; revise. Amends secs. 226, 227 & 231 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.226 et seq.).
Last Action: 6/13/2013 Analysis File Added

[G22]

The bill would amend the Michigan Penal Code to remove a reference to certain types of knives from the felony of going armed with a dangerous weapon, and revise the restriction on carrying a concealed knife.

The bill would take effect 90 days after its enactment. Under the Penal Code, a person who goes armed with a pistol or other firearm, a dagger, dirk, razor, stiletto, or knife having a blade more than three inches long, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon, with the intent to use it against another person, is guilty of a felony punishable by up to five years imprisonment and/or a maximum fine of $2,500. The bill would delete dagger, dirk, and stiletto from that provision and would remove the three inch restriction on a knife.

The Penal Code prohibits a person from carrying a concealed dagger, dirk, stiletto, double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife. The prohibition extends to carrying the weapon in a vehicle, whether concealed or not. A violation is a felony, punishable by up to five years imprisonment and/or a maximum fine of $2,500.

Under the bill, instead, a person could not carry on his or her person a concealed double-edged nonfolding knife of any length, or any other bladed object designed, manufactured, or intended to be used to cause death or injury to any person, and could not carry such an item in any vehicle whether concealed or not. The prohibition would not apply to an object the person carried in his or her house or place of business or on other land he or she possessed; an object carried in transit between those locations that was securely encased and not readily accessible for immediate use; or an object carried in the course of hunting, fishing, or trapping or for use as a tool in the course of the person's occupation or hobby, if that hobby reasonably required the use of the object.

Get ready...

[Crow Buster]

The changes at the beginning of the bill look decent, but the additional text of "such , [BLADED] OBJECT DESIGNED, MANUFACTURED, OR INTENDED TO BE USED TO CAUSE DEATH OR INJURY TO ANY PERSON" puts everyone in an unreasonable position to know the origins and thoughts of the knife designers. This is untenable.

Previous version allowed that unless you had unlawful intentions, you were okay. Not anymore.

looks like this got 107 yeas and only 2 nays.

[shoxroxice]

"or an object carried in the course of hunting, fishing, or trapping or for use as a tool in the course of the person's occupation or hobby, if that hobby reasonably required the use of the object."

I whittle everyday. ;)

[GLOCKME]

Wow,this bill sucks terribly..
I guess I will be able to carry my Mossy 20 concealed but not my Kershaw!!

Some states are going for the legality of switchblades and here MI is doing the "we want to be more like CA" thing!

[Darth AkSarBen]

"or an object carried in the course of hunting, fishing, or trapping or for use as a tool in the course of the person's occupation or hobby, if that hobby reasonably required the use of the object."

I whittle everyday. ;)

EXAXTLY!! I was going to bring this up. Perhaps a chapter of the MGO for wood whittlers. Michigan Gun Owner & Whittlers. Or, Michigan Whittler's. Even if it was a new religion as such. There are lots of religions in the United States, Methodist, Catholics, Lutherans, Jehovah Witness, Latter Day Saints, Scientology... you get the drift. This religion named -> Whittlers are folks that use knives to whittle wood daily and reflect on spiritual things and inner thought of their kindred. (just an example) Some pieces of wood in the trunk, a few branches, some cuts on the wood, and you have evidence of "whittling". Hobby or Religion of " Whittlers". The Religion idea has a lot more power than hobby as well. And a good sharp knife is well known to be the useful tool of a whittler. Whittle during breaks at work. Whittle before eating lunch or after as a reflection of the day.. Whittle away your deep thoughts of the day. Whittle every day.

Reminds me... I need to throw some more wood in the car to whittle with today. Maybe even some small twigs in the car seat cushion pockets. My Papa was a Whittler and his Papa before him, and I am a whittler as well...
:thumbup:

[kgun12]

New to the site, should be moving from New York to Michigan in early fall. Trust me, start writing, emailing, texting and calling ALL your representitives and let them know you are against any restrictions to the 2nd amendment. We sat back in New York and got the "Safe Act" shoved up our...well you know where.

Go to the NY Stae Troopers web site and look for the Safe Act on the right side of the page.

Some of the things we lost semi auto's rifle or gungun with more than one of the following:
Does the gun have any of the following features? Please check all that apply. 1.Folding or Telescoping stock
2.Thumbhole stock
3.Second handgrip or protruding grip that can be held by non shooting hand
4.Fixed magazine capacity in excess of seven rounds
5.An ability to accept a detachable magazine
6.Protruding pistol grip
7.Bayonet mount
8.Flash suppressor
9.Muzzle brake
10.Muzzle compensator
11.Threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash supressor, muzzle brake or compensator
12.Grenade launcher
It must be registered, can't be sold to anyone in NY state when the owner dies it goes to the state and if you didn't own one before the Safe Act was passed you can't buy one now!

No private sale except to and between spouses, domestic partners, children and step-children

We can't have anything bigger that a 10 round magizine but here's the kicker we can only load 7 round, even in our homes!

Starting Jan 14 2014 any ammo purchases over 100 (I think, they haven't put a number on it yet) rounds must be register with the state!

Please read the entire Act and get in touch with all your politicans!

This great plan came in the midddle of the night and the anti-gunners go 5NRA A+ rated politicans to vote for it.

[Rusty]

This is bad legislation and needs immediate action against it by all Michigan Concealed Pistol Licensees. While it is being marketed as reducing knife restrictions, it does not allow a concealed pistol license holder to carry a knife designed for the purpose of self defense and has no provision for statewide preemption over local ordinances for knife carry.

It is not logical that a person trained and authorized to carry a gun cannot carry a knife for self defense.

Unfortunately HB4262 has passed the Michigan House, is heading to the Senate and was recommended by the House Judicary for immediate implementation. It is now fast tracking to pass the Michigan Senate without IMMEDIATE action by Michigan Concealed Pistol Licensees. We have a short window to have our Senators properly amend this bill to exempt CPL holders and stop self defense knife carry from being a felony offense. This is about both personal safety and principle.

For reference of current law, per the Michigan State Police Concealed Pistol Law FAQs:

5. Is it illegal to have a knife with a blade over 3 inches in my possession?
MCL 750.226 No. Michigan law specifies that a person, with intent to use the knife unlawfully against another, shall not go armed with a knife having a blade over 3 inches in length.

HB4262 is worse, as it eliminates the 3 inch provision and further codifies that knives designed for self defense are not legal for daily carry for anyone outside of law enforcement or military.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(mtclzg45ok0ons55whx5r245))/mileg.aspx?page=BillStatus&objectname=2013-HB-4262

Michigan has 407,000 Concealed Pistol Licensees. We need an immediate, geometric surge of CPL holders to amend or stop HB4262. Please email and call Senator Pat Colbeck and other freedom respecting Senators urging them to submit a Senate amendment which exempts Concealed Pistol Licensees from the restrictions imposed by this bill. Then call every CPL you know and urge them to do the same. Some primary contacts:

• Representative Frank Foster (Sponsor HB4262) 517-373-2629
• Representative Kevin Cotter (Chairman House Judiciary Committee) 517-373-1789
• Their Representative
• Their Senator
• Senator Pat Colbeck 517-313-7350


Thank you.

>

Subject: Urgent - Please Amend or Stop HB4262

Dear Senator _______,

As a Concealed Pistol Licensee, I am writing to express my concern with HB4262. Michigan's 407,000 CPL holders require your help to support their need to carry a knife for lawful self defense purposes. HB4262 is poorly conceived "knife reform" that provides no benefit for Michigan's CPL holders.

With HB4262, it is a felony for a law abiding citizen to daily carry any knife which may be designed for for the purpose of self defense. This is no improvement to current law and is unacceptable for a knife law reform bill.

The carry of a knife for lawful self defense should not be a felony offense for a concealed pistol licensee and other law-abiding citizens.

Representative Foster's office stated that HB4262 is intended to expand the daily carry options to the citizen, but the language indicates that this intent applies only to knives designed as common tools. Representative Foster’s office confirmed my concern that HB4262 clearly restricts any knife designed for defensive purposes to law enforcement only.

Unfortunately, even for a knife carried as a tool, HB4262 still puts the burden of proof on the citizen to demonstrate their need to carry it on a daily basis.

Michigan's 407,000 CPL holders typically expect MRGO and NRA to protect their gun rights, but these organizations do not represent knife rights. Due to this void in CPL representation, HB4262 was written for the benefit of knife manufacturers and collectors without the input Michigan CPL holders who may desire to carry a knife as a back up to their pistol. CPL holders are upstanding citizens who should be allowed to carry a fixed or folding knife designed for defensive application.

Any well-trained CPL holder appreciates their imperative responsibility to retain possession of their pistol in the event of an attempted gun grab by a violent criminal. Having the option to carry a knife designed for the purpose of self defense improves their ability to break contact with a gun-grabbing criminal assailant and retain possesion of their firearm.

While I concur that Michigan's knife law can be improved, any update should at the very least clearly allow a CPL holder to carry a knife designed for the purpose of self defense with statewide preemption. Any individual authorized to carry a pistol for self defense should logically be authorized to carry a knife designed for self defense. Concealed Pistol Licensees need the same exemptions that law enforcement officers are afforded in HB4262 for the purpose of self defense.

Additionally, HB4262's language and distinction between "good" and "bad" knives is of concern in that it might be used to enact a ban on the daily carry of the common heavy-duty "tactical" folding knife you see clipped to many pockets. While we typically use "tactical" knives as general purpose tools, their design function may have features that may be useful for self defense (e.g. blade) which enable these tools be used to cause "death or injury" to another person. Please note that many common general purpose folding knives have a second, unsharpened false edge which might be banned under the "double edged" restriction of HB4262. Per Representative Foster's office, if a folding knife is designed for "military" or for self defense, it would be illegal for daily carry under HB4262.

In summary, HB4262 must be amended allow a law abiding adult to legally carry a knife designed for the lawful purpose of self defense, or it should be rejected by the Michigan House and Senate.

• At a minimum, HB4262 should be immediately amended to add Concealed Pistol License holders to the list of those individuals to whom these restrictions do not apply, with statewide preemption. It is both reasonable and prudent for a trained and legally armed CPL holder to be allowed to carry a knife, designed for the purpose of self-defense, which is readily accessible to them, concealed or otherwise, to defeat an attempted gun grab by a violent criminal. Any person authorized to carry a concealed pistol should have the option of backing up that pistol with a fixed or folding blade knife designed for self defense.

• At best, in the spirit of the Michigan Constitution, HB4262 should be amended to clearly allow a law abiding adult to legally carry a knife (fixed or folding) designed for the purpose of self defense if they do not intend to use it unlawfully against another person. It should not be a felony offense for an otherwise law abiding adult to carry a knife designed for self defense.

I respectfully request your leadership to properly amend HB4262 to improve the safety of Michigan CPL holders, their families and the public at large by exempting CPL holders (as with law enforcement officers) from the restrictions imposed by HB4262. Please contact your fellow Senators to enlist their support to amend or reject this bill.

Thank you,

A Concerned Michigan Concealed Pistol Licensee

[G22]

VERY well done Rusty!

C'mon people lets get on this. The letter is pre written above. NO EXCUSES!

For those who have already contacted their reps, Thank You! Now DO IT AGAIN!

[luckless]

I can't understand who is begging for more knife control, anyway. Hard to fight something like this if we don't know who our enemy is.

[gjgalligan]

Latest on this?

[Rooster4570]

FISCAL IMPACT:
The bill would have an indeterminate impact on the costs of state and local correctional
systems. Data is not available to determine how the bill would affect the number of
felony convictions that result from relevant offenses. To the extent that the bill resulted
in additional civil fine revenue, that revenue would benefit local libraries, which are the constitutionally-designated recipient of those funds.
During calendar year 2011, there were 2,156 felony convictions related to carrying
dangerous weapons under either MCL 750.226 or MCL 750.227 of current law. Around
16% of those convictions resulted in prison sentences, whereas around 17% resulted in
local jail sentences. The remainder resulted in either probation, an alternative sanction,
or probation with the potential for jail time.

I guess these guys have a lot of time on their hands to keep rewriting Bills. Rep. Frank Foster...... Sure this guy isn't a Democrat.

[moreparts]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/08/12/19988825-stop-and-frisk-police-tactic-violated-constitutional-rights-federal-judge-says?lite&ocid=msnhp&pos=1

[Roundballer]

Latest on this?
This bill is sitting under "General Orders" on the Senate Calendar (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28qhckma55wyxlkmmxqv410v55%29%29/documents/2013-2014/Calendar/Senate/htm/2013-sc-08-14-064.htm).

This means that it is open for amendment, and can be called up for "Third Reading" at any time the leaders of the Senate wish to.

If we want this bill DEAD, call your Senator and speak against it. If you think that it can be salvaged and repaired, ask your Senator to offer an amendment.

[gjgalligan]

Called him a bit earlier today, told him it was garbage and did not understand why if I can carry a dozen pistols why I can't have a knife.

Anybody able to give a roll call vote from the house when this got passed there?

[Roundballer]

The vote was 107 yea, 2 nay.

Use the "find" feature in your browser to get to "4262" --> Here in the House Journal. (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28lid2fr55tjg2pj55zblg432o%29%29/documents/2013-2014/Journal/House/htm/2013-HJ-04-09-030.htm)

[luckless]

FISCAL IMPACT:

I guess these guys have a lot of time on their hands to keep rewriting Bills. Rep. Frank Foster...... Sure this guy isn't a Democrat.


Foster was originally lobbied by knife collectors to change the law to help facilitate their hobby. In specific, they wanted to own switchblades. Reenactors got on board because they wanted to transport and carry their swords, bayonets and sabres. Martial arts folks wanted some liberty, too and CPLers wishing to carry knives joined in as well.

The current bill gives these groups nothing Foster's office can't, or won't, tell us who he is representing with this current legislation. They claim it will help knife owners but don't seem to be able to explain how this positively affects the original parties asking Foster for help.

The poor knife guys are just starting to learn what we know about this crop of legislators.


They will get what we got, lip service and platitudes.

[2A Firearms]

This may be an insanely stupid question, but WHY can't we repeal all bills/laws against inanimate objects, and concentrate on bills/laws against illegal ACTIONS?

God this is driving me crazy....

[Tallbear]

HB 4262 of 2013
Crimes; weapons; prohibitions against carrying certain weapons; revise. Amends secs. 226, 227 & 231 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.226 et seq.).
Last Action: 6/12/2013 REFERRED TO COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE