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reshp1
03-04-2013, 10:16 AM
Being at least 40 minutes from the nearest outdoor range, I've been spending a lot of time at indoor ranges and recently have become concerned with lead exposure. Normally, I wouldn't really worry about these things, but my wife and I are trying for a baby soon and apparently lead exposure in the father can cause issues for the child, and that, frankly, does terrify me.

I was wondering if you guys have any experiences on lead exposure, including possibly having high lead levels come back in blood tests, what your procedures for "decontaminating" after shooting, any masks or filters you wear during shooting, etc.

jmanz6
03-04-2013, 10:22 AM
Most indoor ranges around here have sufficient ventilation to make exposure not an issue. Always wash your hands after you finish at the range. If you are really concerned, take a shower when you get home and put on clean clothes. If you are truely concerned, get your blood tested now so you have a baseline to go from if you are worried about over exposure.

MI-1911
03-04-2013, 10:51 AM
I think the dangers, and fear of Lead is a little over hyped, just like Mercury. While both are toxic, and dangerous if not handled properly, a little common sense goes a long way.

All legitimate indoor shooting ranges are required to meet OSHA Safety Standards. They must have approved ventilation systems, with filters that are maintained regularly. The use of lead bullets is way down from what it used to be. FMJ copper jacketed bullets usually do not shed much lead.

I've worked with, or around lead (and Mercury) numerous times. I've worked with lead acid storage batteries for cars, and electric fork trucks, golf carts, and early generation electric vehicles. I've worked with wheel weights for balancing tires.

I've cast, and used lead sinkers for fishing. I fired countless shot gun rounds, both shot shells, and slugs, back when they were all lead. I shot in many indoor ranges all my life. Several years of that was on a pistol league, shooting cast lead bullets. After shooting sessions my hands would be black. Before we were told of the dangers of lead, I use to frequently eat a few donuts after shooting, in a situation where I could not wash my hands! I also cast my own bullets for several years, collecting scrap lead, breaking it up, melting it down, pouring it into molds, swaging it, etc.

I grew up in a home with lead paint, lead curtain weights, lead water main pipes, lead toys. I've drank beer from Pewter mugs. I've worked with lead solder doing sheet metal work, copper plumbing work, and a significant amount of soldering electronic components. I've worked with the old cast iron sewer pipe, where you would pour lead into the fitted pipe couplings.

So by all accounts, I should be dead! But I'm 62 years old, and I've been tested for lead, and results were negative. I suppose you could where those disposable white face filters while at an indoor shooting range. Inhaling through your nose, rather than your mouth, helps also.

MichiganShootist
03-04-2013, 10:51 AM
Do a search there was a long involved thread on this topic last winter.

Bottom line you should be concerned. Me and 4 other people all tested very high on lead. All from the same indoor gun club.

One guy had to have transfusions to get his level down. I had to take meds and stay off the range for 6 months.

Using a brass cleaner indoor is also a huge source of lead and can hurt your entire family.

If you are serious go to your doc. for a simple blood test.

And BTW--- the older gun clubs have all been grandfathered from the laws governing air flow etc and DO REPRESENT A SERIOUS THREAT.

MI-1911
03-04-2013, 11:38 AM
Do a search there was a long involved thread on this topic last winter.

Bottom line you should be concerned. Me and 4 other people all tested very high on lead.

What were the symptoms?

jmanz6
03-04-2013, 11:50 AM
Sinking when swimming... Weight gain...

MI-1911
03-04-2013, 11:54 AM
Sinking when swimming... Weight gain...

:lolup:

Now that I think about it, my old boss used to tell me I needed to get the lead out of my ass! :scratch:

unclejoe
03-04-2013, 12:02 PM
Google: 'Home Remedies for Lead Poisoning"

MichiganShootist
03-04-2013, 12:46 PM
You may have symptons and may not. I had none but when I heard others were testing high I went to my doc.

Some are head aches, inability to sleep well, swings in mood, problems with urinary activity.

Only way to know is a blood test.

reshp1
03-04-2013, 03:24 PM
Do a search there was a long involved thread on this topic last winter.

Bottom line you should be concerned. Me and 4 other people all tested very high on lead. All from the same indoor gun club.

One guy had to have transfusions to get his level down. I had to take meds and stay off the range for 6 months.

Using a brass cleaner indoor is also a huge source of lead and can hurt your entire family.

If you are serious go to your doc. for a simple blood test.

And BTW--- the older gun clubs have all been grandfathered from the laws governing air flow etc and DO REPRESENT A SERIOUS THREAT.

Thanks for the info. The two ranges I go to most are pretty well ventilated (Double Action and Target Sports). I plan on getting the lead test soon, too bad I didn't think of this earlier since I just had a physical in January.

Do you have a link for the thread? I can't seem to find it.

reshp1
03-04-2013, 03:25 PM
I think the dangers, and fear of Lead is a little over hyped, just like Mercury. While both are toxic, and dangerous if not handled properly, a little common sense goes a long way.

All legitimate indoor shooting ranges are required to meet OSHA Safety Standards. They must have approved ventilation systems, with filters that are maintained regularly. The use of lead bullets is way down from what it used to be. FMJ copper jacketed bullets usually do not shed much lead.

I've worked with, or around lead (and Mercury) numerous times. I've worked with lead acid storage batteries for cars, and electric fork trucks, golf carts, and early generation electric vehicles. I've worked with wheel weights for balancing tires.

I've cast, and used lead sinkers for fishing. I fired countless shot gun rounds, both shot shells, and slugs, back when they were all lead. I shot in many indoor ranges all my life. Several years of that was on a pistol league, shooting cast lead bullets. After shooting sessions my hands would be black. Before we were told of the dangers of lead, I use to frequently eat a few donuts after shooting, in a situation where I could not wash my hands! I also cast my own bullets for several years, collecting scrap lead, breaking it up, melting it down, pouring it into molds, swaging it, etc.

I grew up in a home with lead paint, lead curtain weights, lead water main pipes, lead toys. I've drank beer from Pewter mugs. I've worked with lead solder doing sheet metal work, copper plumbing work, and a significant amount of soldering electronic components. I've worked with the old cast iron sewer pipe, where you would pour lead into the fitted pipe couplings.

So by all accounts, I should be dead! But I'm 62 years old, and I've been tested for lead, and results were negative. I suppose you could where those disposable white face filters while at an indoor shooting range. Inhaling through your nose, rather than your mouth, helps also.

I tend to agree with you for adults, but the effects on kids and fetuses is really kinda scary. I don't really worry too much about myself, but just want to make sure I'm not jeopordizing my future offspring.

zcolt45
03-04-2013, 07:11 PM
Like they say it cannot happen to me!

You invest in firearms and ammunition; why not think about your own Health for your family's well being.

Some of us have been in the shooting environment since the late 1940's, we know.
Think you are safe in 2013?
You will learn through Life's experience.

Gun safety and Health knowledge go hand in hand.


Gun range under fire over lead in blood of workers (http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020353191_gunrangeleadxml.html)
February 13, 2013 at 9:31 PM LINK

The Mayo Clinic defines lead poisoning (http://www.friedmanrodmanfrank.com/lead-exposure.html)

The Mayo Clinic defines lead poisoning as having a blood lead levels (BLLs) greater than or equal to 10 µg/dL, yet the vast majority of cases remain undiagnosed and untreated because low BLLs are not typically associated with overt symptoms. However, a BLL as low as 10 µg/dL can adversely affect intelligence, learning, behavior, and development. Symptoms of lead poisoning include:
•Anemia
•Decreased muscle and bone growth
•Hearing damage
•Learning disabilities
•Nervous system and kidney damage
•Muscle weakness
•Speech, language and behavior problems
•Brain damage
At extremely high levels (45 µg/dL or higher), lead poisoning can cause seizures, coma, and even death in children. Although a simple blood test can prevent permanent damage, nearly 250, 000 children in the United States are estimated to have elevated BLLs.

...

MI-1911
03-04-2013, 07:28 PM
Like they say it cannot happen to me!

•Brain damage

...
So far this seems to be the only symptom I've suffered. I can't seem to resist the temptation of buying more guns, and ammo, in spite of insane price increases! :doh:

wurm
03-04-2013, 08:34 PM
Ran across this last week.

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-02-exposure-negatively-impacts-meap-scores.html

With young children planned or around I see no problem with being a bit paranoid. I've seen various advice around but most seem to say don't eat, drink or smoke while at the range or before washing up. Use products like D-Wipe by Escatech to wash hands. They make soap and laundry detergent as well if you want to take it that far.

Dedicated range clothes aren't a bad idea, especially if you shoot a lot. Keep a separate pair of shoes and take them off before getting in the car or walking into the house.

G22
03-05-2013, 12:38 PM
I had my lead checked at my last physical when they drew blood.

It was not covered under my insurance, it cost me $5.50

I shoot a decent amount and it came back very low.

Wash your hands with COLD water. Hot water opens up your pores.

elwarpo
03-05-2013, 01:24 PM
The big difference between shooting and other lead related activities, is than while shooting lead is volatilized (turned into a gas or aerosol) and can be inhaled. Lead is a suspected carcinogen.
This is from a MSDS for lead

Section 7: Handling and Storage
Precautions:
Keep locked up.. Keep away from heat. Keep away from sources of ignition. Empty containers pose a fire risk, evaporate
the residue under a fume hood. Ground all equipment containing material. Do not ingest. Do not breathe dust. Wear suitable protective clothing. If ingested, seek medical advice immediately and show the container or the label.

Section 8: Exposure Controls/Personal Protection
Engineering Controls:
Use process enclosures, local exhaust ventilation, or other engineering controls to keep airborne levels below recommended exposure limits. If user operations generate dust, fume or mist, use ventilation to keep exposure to airborne contaminants below the exposure limit.
Personal Protection: Safety glasses. Lab coat. Dust respirator. Be sure to use an approved/certified respirator or equivalent. Gloves.

OSHA usually uses a timed average for exposure, meaning they average results over 8 hours. So the range can be over the limit for a few hours during a busy period as long as the 8 hour average is below limits. Also, lead builds up in your system, so exposure is additive. lead causes many problems.... beware.

MichiganShootist
03-05-2013, 02:08 PM
The one friend that had levels so high it required transfusions... he was at 40 when his blood was first tested.... He was the safety officer at a weekly indoor IDPA match.

In that role he would walk down range right after the shooter was done to score targets. That put him right where the vaporized lead was. He was having dizzy spells and terrible head aches. He lost a couple months of work too.

I was at 15.. I had to stay off the indoor ranges and take some meds that help flush the system. In 6 months I was okay.

I personally believe all indoor shooting (even in a modern range), the handling and cleaning of brass cases, the tumbling process, and handling lead when reloading are the biggest risk activities for shooters.

Last thought... many indoor ranges sweep up the brass either after every shooter or from time to time. That just fills the air with particles. Sweeping should be done when the range is empty and by someone wearing a mask. (not just one for painting-- one rated for lead)

cableman22b
03-05-2013, 06:06 PM
It pays to be safe.

clintsfolly
03-11-2013, 01:38 PM
lead bullets have very little to do with lead blood levels but the primers are the big thing!!! Clint

reshp1
03-20-2013, 01:31 PM
Just to follow up on this, I did go get my levels tested and they came back elevated (14.9). Ugh. :(

I'm having the wife get her's tested to see if it could be from something else enviromental (lead pipes being a possibility) since she doesn't shoot and therefore makes a good control sample. Probably have to stick to outdoor ranges from now on.

langenc
03-24-2013, 11:11 PM
Using a brass cleaner indoor is also a huge source of lead and can hurt your entire family.

Copied from shootists post-page 1

What does this sentence mean?? Brasso?? Tumbling brass?? Ill bet many do this regularly.

MichiganShootist
03-25-2013, 11:35 AM
It means using a tumbler, vibrator etc. to clean fired brass indoors. The brass cases and primers my look nice but those devices fill the air with very fine particles that have a huge lead content.

Once they are in the house the furnace or air conditioner will circulate them throughout the home.

You should also use laytex gloves if hand sorting fired brass too. I sort a lot because of my classes and I use the Dillon sorting basket tool... but I do it outdoors and wear a mask.



None of this did I do before I had lead troubles--- but I learned my lesson.

reshp1
03-25-2013, 01:31 PM
You should also use laytex gloves if hand sorting fired brass too. I sort a lot because of my classes and I use the Dillon sorting basket tool... but I do it outdoors and wear a mask.



Just curious, why latex gloves? I usually just wash my hands carefully afterwards. What mask do you use? Just a dust mask or one with a real filter cartridge?

MichiganShootist
03-25-2013, 02:11 PM
Once you have your hands filthy the lead can be absorbed by the skin... especially when you wash them in warm water.... which opens the pores of your skin.

The mask I use is hepa rated mask. They have to be rated to the same level as those you would use for asbestos or the partictles go straight through.

One rated for painting would be better than nothing but the ones I use are $6.00 and I by one a year... it's worth it to me.

seery
03-25-2013, 11:57 PM
Latex gloves are a good idea when handling your brass.

Pores are nothing more than tiny openings in your skin. They don't have muscles, and that means they can't open or close. It doesn't matter what you do -- there's no way to change the size or your pores.

langenc
08-07-2013, 12:06 PM
Original thread about lead (Pb) but mercury (Hg) was mentioned later.

Recently got together w/ a copuple of high school friends. We mentioned 'playing' w/ Hg in study hall. The only thing we worried about was getting it on/in your watch, non dig in those days.

Now if one was to have Hg a school, it would be evacuated and 3 or 4++ would show up in space suits and decontaminate the place. It would be closed for several DAYS and cost thousands of $$$$.

Lead-copper soldiered w/ Pb is a no no.. Paint is an absolute no no. Lead used to be the expensive part of paint. It was removed and paint went up in price??

Gasoline=no need to discuss.

Both were bad?? I guess they cause some kinds of mental degradations and suppress gray matter developement.

I wonder how that bad compares to alcohol, tobacco and pot that most think should just be legalized??

who dat
08-31-2013, 06:48 AM
Latex gloves are a good idea when handling your brass.

Pores are nothing more than tiny openings in your skin. They don't have muscles, and that means they can't open or close. It doesn't matter what you do -- there's no way to change the size or your pores.
Did you make that up or is that a quote? :lol:

StoneyBones
08-31-2013, 06:55 AM
....

solarguy
08-31-2013, 09:55 AM
The bad news, you absolutely can absorb lead through your skin, especially if the particle size is very fine, like shooters and reloaders are exposed to all the time. You can also inhale it and ingest it.


The good news. Lead that is absorbed through the skin does not appear to go immediately into the blood stream, and it appears that you can also sweat it out, to some extent. Not that this is a good way to treat high blood levels of lead. But interesting none the less. Some of the miners who were exposed to too much mercury were treated by putting them in a sauna...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3238426


People can't make their pores bigger or smaller, that's a common myth. And it turns out it's irrelevant anyway. You can absorb lead through your skin regardless of how "open" or "closed" your pores are. That has more to do with lead particle size and what the lead is combined with chemically.

Everybody should get tested and take appropriate action. The blood test is cheap/affordable, and the treatment (if needed) is fairly successful.

Yes, I am a doctor, and a shooter, and a reloader. I live in an old house with lead paint. I cast lead bullets. I shoot a fair amount.


My blood levels test pretty much off the scale low. Prevention is the best.


HTH,

troy

MI-1911
08-31-2013, 10:08 AM
I finally was tested for lead poisoning. None detected, inspite of my life long exposure. :shrugs:

langenc
08-31-2013, 11:36 AM
When I took 'range safety officer (RSO) it was recommended that cold water be available for shooters towash hand w/ immeiately after shooting.

When in college we would go to the ROTC range and shoot, eat lunch etc. definitely a no no. After classes we went to work for 4 to 6 hrs. all w/ the same clothes!! WOW.

Today you should shoot. When finished wssh hands, change clothes and probably shower. How many do that?

StoneyBones
08-31-2013, 11:50 AM
....

Ra's al Ghul
02-28-2014, 01:58 PM
At the very least I wash my hands after every time I shoot, that goes for both pistol and skeet/trap. I cringe when I watch people just pack up and leave immediately from the range :freak:

langenc
03-05-2014, 12:53 PM
Reread the original post.

I cant seem to imagine where all the lead comes from on fired brass?? Is there some contact, lead and brass?? sure. Loading most jacketted bullets these days there is no lead exposed. Cleand brass has no lead-sdo where is the lead coming from??

I do use as a main CF riflebullets the old Remington Core Lokts-w/ lead timp expose and some Nosler partitions, lead tips.. Once they roar down the bore and my brass is ejected and collected how much lead can remain on them.

Is lead toxic-sure. There is so much less that 50 years ago it is amazing.
No lead gas and the lead laden exhaust, no lead paint, no lead pipes/sweatings, no lead in kids toys paints (eeekkk). Still lead in bullets, sometimes, primers and the resulting smoke and Im hard pressed to find more.

reshp1
03-05-2014, 02:04 PM
I cant seem to imagine where all the lead comes from on fired brass?? Is there some contact, lead and brass?? sure. Loading most jacketted bullets these days there is no lead exposed. Cleand brass has no lead-sdo where is the lead coming from??

It's the primers mostly. There's a fine coating of lead dust from the primers that's on everything. Lots of FMJ aren't fully encapsulated too, to they leave some lead too. On a single shot, it's probably not a concern, but after 10's of thousands of shots, it builds up at the range and gets kicked up. When you clean brass, it can also build up in your tumbler.

DooFighter
03-06-2014, 08:38 AM
I posted this a couple years ago http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=164328

I have not updated the thread but getting my blood tested every June at my annual physical, in 2012 and 2013 I was down from my first test (11). I don't remember the exact level but somewhere 6-8 I think. Again, <9 is considered "acceptable."

I know the little bit I'm getting is from the old range I shoot in. The ventilation needs updating but the club will not/cannot spend the $. I wear a mask every time I shoot now. I get the occasional funny look and/or question about it and I just tell them the abbreviated story, but most of the regulars are used to seeing me with a mask now. No one else has taken up wearing one, though. I usually do not notice the funny taste in my mouth after shooting now that I wear the mask. The mask I wear I buy at Menards for about $12, says it protects against lead exposure in demolition work. It does not have the separate discs, I could not fit one of those under my glasses and with muffs, but does have a valve for exhaling.

DevDoc
04-20-2014, 09:45 PM
My friend even refuses to wear his jacket inside a range for fear of it getting to his children so I would not say that you are alone.