H.B. 5091, 5092 Brandishing

[Tallbear]

HB 5091 of 2013 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-5091)
Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling. Amends sec. 234e of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.234e). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5092'13
Last Action: 10/22/2013 referred to Committee on Judiciary
HB 5092 of 2013 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-5092)
Weapons; other; definition of brandish; provide for. Amends sec. 222 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.222). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5091'13
Last Action: 10/22/2013 referred to Committee on Judiciary

[Walther]

(Gasp!) An actual definition of what constitutes brandishing!

[dhrith]

(Gasp!) An actual definition of what constitutes brandishing!


Correction. What doesn't constitute brandishing. ....;p

[Roundballer]

Correction. What doesn't constitute brandishing. ....;p
No, it is an exemption from brandishing in one law, and definition of the word brandish in another:


Sec. 234e. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not knowingly brandish a firearm in public.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

A peace officer lawfully performing his or her duties as a peace officer.
A person lawfully engaged in hunting.
A person lawfully engaged in target practice.
A person lawfully engaged in the sale, purchase, repair, or transfer of that firearm.
A person who is not prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm and is in lawful possession of an openly carried firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling.
(http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2013-2014/billintroduced/House/htm/2013-HIB-5091.htm)


Sec. 222. As used in this chapter:
<snip>
(c) "Brandish" means to point, wave about, or display in a threatening manner. (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2013-2014/billintroduced/House/htm/2013-HIB-5092.htm)

[bigt8261]

Roundballer is correct and in the end it's both what is and what is not brandishing.

These bills will hopefully cement AG 7101. Right now law enforcement and the courts may, but do not have to, follow 7101. If everything is cemented into a statute, it will be clearer to everyone, and will leave less wiggle room for those looking for a way to pushing people for doing something they personally do not approve of.

[248 Shooter]

Called my reps and shared with followers. It would be nice to see clear definitions instead of interpretation.

[detroitbassist]

Would this become the first law that specifically codifies open carry (in Michigan)?

[dhrith]

Ahh indeed it does in the second.
I scanned it too quick and overlooked it.

:banghead:

[Walther]

Would this become the first law that specifically codifies open carry (in Michigan)?

I think no. Moreover, if they finally decided to write a bill that actually describes brandishing, how far behind can a bill be that specifically codifies OC? Perhaps with some less than desirable language?

[TheQ]

Much discussion here:

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=267827

[DV8r]

Maybe they should write a bill that defines "Common Sense" and use it for these gray ares, not just surrounding guns but all of life's little treasures? Such as bicycle & tricycle helmets, kids car seats, seat-belts, motorcycle helmets, playing kick ball and tag, etc., etc., etc. :phew: :boohoo:

[Raggs]

Maybe they should write a bill that defines "Common Sense" and use it for these gray ares, not just surrounding guns but all of life's little treasures? Such as bicycle & tricycle helmets, kids car seats, seat-belts, motorcycle helmets, playing kick ball and tag, etc., etc., etc. :phew: :boohoo:

What is this common sense you speak of?:confused:

[Tallbear]

House Standing Committee Meeting

Judiciary, Rep. Kevin Cotter, Chair

DATE: Thursday, February 27, 2014

TIME: 9:00 AM

PLACE: Room 521, House Office Building, Lansing, MI

AGENDA:
HB 4155 (Rep. Nesbitt) Weapons; licensing; certain firearm licensing information; exempt from freedom of information act.

HB 5324 (Rep. Jenkins) Weapons; licensing; firearm records; clarify exemption under the freedom of information act.

HB 5325 (Rep. Crawford) Weapons; licensing; definition of firearms records; provide for.

HB 5326 (Rep. McBroom) Weapons; licensing; firearms records; clarify what records are exempt under the freedom of information act.

HB 5327 (Rep. Rendon) Weapons; licensing; firearms records; exempt from freedom of information act and provide for disclosure only under certain circumstances.

HB 5328 (Rep. Cotter) Weapons; licensing; firearm records; clarify what is exempt under the freedom of information act.

HB 5329 (Rep. Pettalia) Criminal procedure; sentencing guidelines; sentencing guideline for certain firearm licensing information; provide for.

SB 610 (Sen. Green) Weapons; firearms; manufacture, possession, or transfer of certain short-barreled shotguns or rifles; allow.

HB 5091 (Rep. Johnson) Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling.

HB 5092 (Rep. Dillon) Weapons; other; definition of brandish; provide for.

HR 199 (Rep. Shirkey) A resolution to urge the state of Illinois to recognize Michigan concealed pistol license holders as being automatically legal to carry concealed handguns in the state of Illinois.

[Tallbear]

HB 5091 of 2013 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-5091)
Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling. Amends sec. 234e of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.234e). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5092'13
Last Action: 2/26/2014 Analysis File Added
HB 5092 of 2013 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-5092)
Weapons; other; definition of brandish; provide for. Amends sec. 222 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.222). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5091'13
Last Action: 2/26/2014 Analysis File Added

[who dat]

So what does this mean?:

Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners
Yesterday
LEGISLATIVE UPDATE, PART 2: HB 5091 and HB 5092, which would codify "brandishing" in statutory law will be up for the first time in House Judiciary Committee tomorrow. The bills originated with Michigan Open Carry, Inc. MCRGO is neutral on the bills. While MCRGO supports MOC's intent with the package, we are concerned that opening up largely settled case law on the issue that is favorable to gun owners presents opportunities for unfavorable legislative changes.

[bigt8261]

HB 5091 of 2013 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-5091)
Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling. Amends sec. 234e of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.234e). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5092'13
Last Action: 2/26/2014 Analysis File Added
HB 5092 of 2013 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-5092)
Weapons; other; definition of brandish; provide for. Amends sec. 222 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.222). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5091'13
Last Action: 2/26/2014 Analysis File Added

These links are no longer valid to get the current language. MOC has been working with the sponsors to get better language. This morning a substitute bill was offered and unanimously adopted for each bill. You may find sub language here:

Amendment H-1 for 5091 (http://rrfaae.com/dump/MOC/H03891%2713%20%28H-1%29.pdf)
Amendment H-1 for 5092 (http://rrfaae.com/dump/MOC/H03299%2713%20Star%20%28H-1%29.pdf)

We (MOC) expect the bills to be voted on and passed out of committee next week.

[TheQ]

So what does this mean?:

Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners
Yesterday
LEGISLATIVE UPDATE, PART 2: HB 5091 and HB 5092, which would codify "brandishing" in statutory law will be up for the first time in House Judiciary Committee tomorrow. The bills originated with Michigan Open Carry, Inc. MCRGO is neutral on the bills. While MCRGO supports MOC's intent with the package, we are concerned that opening up largely settled case law on the issue that is favorable to gun owners presents opportunities for unfavorable legislative changes.


Read: MCRGO's lawyer (Steve Dulan) thinks an Attorney General Opinion is settled case law -- it isn't. They are afraid the language of the bill will get changed to something that is less favorable at the last minute in the legislative process -- but then again this is the risk on ANY bill. If the bills take an unfavorable turn late in the legislative process, we will torpedo them.

I could say the same thing about the NRA's bill to exempt registration information from FOIA -- it's already settled Supreme Court Case law, why risk the change?

[Tallbear]

Judiciary, Rep. Kevin Cotter, Chair

DATE: Thursday, March 6, 2014

TIME: 9:00 AM

PLACE: Room 521, House Office Building, Lansing, MI

AGENDA:
HB 5091 (Rep. Johnson) Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling.

HB 5092 (Rep. Dillon) Weapons; other; definition of brandish; provide for.

HR 199 (Rep. Shirkey) A resolution to urge the state of Illinois to recognize Michigan concealed pistol license holders as being automatically legal to carry concealed handguns in the state of Illinois.

SB 749 (Sen. Schuitmaker) Crime victims; other; definition of a victim; include in certain circumstances.

HB 4915 (Rep. Lori) Crime victims; other; crime victim's rights fund; extend sunset.

[TheQ]

Judiciary, Rep. Kevin Cotter, Chair

DATE: Thursday, March 6, 2014

TIME: 9:00 AM

PLACE: Room 521, House Office Building, Lansing, MI

AGENDA:
HB 5091 (Rep. Johnson) Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling.

HB 5092 (Rep. Dillon) Weapons; other; definition of brandish; provide for.

HR 199 (Rep. Shirkey) A resolution to urge the state of Illinois to recognize Michigan concealed pistol license holders as being automatically legal to carry concealed handguns in the state of Illinois.

SB 749 (Sen. Schuitmaker) Crime victims; other; definition of a victim; include in certain circumstances.

HB 4915 (Rep. Lori) Crime victims; other; crime victim's rights fund; extend sunset.


MOC expects these bills to be reported out by the committee on 3/6, in a substituted form.

[nmuskier]

Does not apply to:


(a) A peace officer lawfully performing his or her duties as a

peace officer.

(b) A person lawfully engaged in hunting.

(c) A person lawfully engaged in target practice.

(d) A person lawfully engaged in the sale, purchase, repair,

Should there be a clause covering people lawfully defending themselves, another individual, or their property?

[richtherake]

Substitute for House Bill No. 5091 (as linked in reply #16 of this thread)

Sec. 234e. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not WILLFULLY AND knowingly brandish a firearm in public.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to EITHER of the following:
(a) A piece officer lawfully performing his or her duties as a peace officer.
(B) A PERSON LAWFULLY ACTING IN SELF-DEFENSE OR DEFENSE OF ANOTHER UNDER THE SELF-DEFENSE ACT, 2006 PA 309, MCL 780.971 TO 780.974

Couple that with this definition of Brandishing (also linked in reply #16 of this thread):

"BRANDISH" MEANS TO INTENTIONALLY POINT, WAVE ABOUT, OR DISPLAY IN A THREATENING MANNER THAT WOULD INDUCE FEAR IN A REASONABLE PERSON.

and I think it looks pretty good and is definitely an improvement over what we have now.

Great job guys. I hope it moves forward.

[Leader]

Judiciary, Rep. Kevin Cotter, Chair

DATE: Thursday, March 6, 2014

TIME: 9:00 AM

PLACE: Room 521, House Office Building, Lansing, MI

AGENDA:
HB 5091 (Rep. Johnson) Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling.

HB 5092 (Rep. Dillon) Weapons; other; definition of brandish; provide for.

HR 199 (Rep. Shirkey) A resolution to urge the state of Illinois to recognize Michigan concealed pistol license holders as being automatically legal to carry concealed handguns in the state of Illinois.

SB 749 (Sen. Schuitmaker) Crime victims; other; definition of a victim; include in certain circumstances.

HB 4915 (Rep. Lori) Crime victims; other; crime victim's rights fund; extend sunset.


OT but this NEEDS support too.

[who dat]

Substitute for House Bill No. 5091 (as linked in reply #16 of this thread)

Sec. 234e. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not WILLFULLY AND knowingly brandish a firearm in public.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to EITHER of the following:
(a) A piece officer lawfully performing his or her duties as a peace officer.
(B) A PERSON LAWFULLY ACTING IN SELF-DEFENSE OR DEFENSE OF ANOTHER UNDER THE SELF-DEFENSE ACT, 2006 PA 309, MCL 780.971 TO 780.974

Couple that with this definition of Brandishing (also linked in reply #16 of this thread):

"BRANDISH" MEANS TO INTENTIONALLY POINT, WAVE ABOUT, OR DISPLAY IN A THREATENING MANNER THAT WOULD INDUCE FEAR IN A REASONABLE PERSON.

and I think it looks pretty good and is definitely an improvement over what we have now.

Great job guys. I hope it moves forward."BRANDISH" MEANS TO INTENTIONALLY POINT, WAVE ABOUT, OR DISPLAY IN A THREATENING MANNER THAT WOULD INDUCE FEAR IN A REASONABLE PERSON. Is that particular addition necessary? To me, it is redundant and adds subjectivity to an already subjective wording of "threatening manner".

[brass hat]

"BRANDISH" MEANS TO INTENTIONALLY POINT, WAVE ABOUT, OR DISPLAY IN A THREATENING MANNER THAT WOULD INDUCE FEAR IN A REASONABLE PERSON. Is that particular addition necessary? To me, it is redundant and adds subjectivity to an already subjective wording of "threatening manner".
Yes because antigun morons think carrying in a holster in plain sight is brandishing and threatening to them and would gladly have you arrested and prosecuted for it. The rest of the world,like us believes it's ridiculous, irrational and unreasonable to think an openly carried gun is brandishing or somehow threatening in and of itself.

[richtherake]

Agreed. I like the wording as is.

[Leader]

"BRANDISH" MEANS TO INTENTIONALLY POINT, WAVE ABOUT, OR DISPLAY IN A THREATENING MANNER THAT WOULD INDUCE FEAR IN A REASONABLE PERSON. Is that particular addition necessary? To me, it is redundant and adds subjectivity to an already subjective wording of "threatening manner".

Every one of those anti's believe they are "reasonable" and anyone that isn't intimidated and in fear of a gun in the hands of a non leo is irrational.

[bigt8261]

Keep in mind the reasonable person standard is the same standard we use in the Self Defense Act.

I will also say that we are working on moving the intentionally portion from the action to the causing fear portion.

You may intentionally display, but you need to intend to cause fear for it to be brandishing.

[bigt8261]

MOC has received word that HB 5091 & HB 5092 were reported out of the House Judiciary Committee today with unanimous support.

[TheQ]

Keep in mind the reasonable person standard is the same standard we use in the Self Defense Act.

I will also say that we are working on moving the intentionally portion from the action to the causing fear portion.

You may intentionally display, but you need to intend to cause fear for it to be brandishing.

The language (which Tom is alluding to), will be introduced in the Senate Judiciary committee. The prosecutor will be required to prove the person brandished with the INTENT to cause fear in another -- intention will have to be proved as well as action.

[ninjatoth]

Substitute for House Bill No. 5091 (as linked in reply #16 of this thread)

Sec. 234e. (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not WILLFULLY AND knowingly brandish a firearm in public.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to EITHER of the following:
(a) A piece officer lawfully performing his or her duties as a peace officer.
(B) A PERSON LAWFULLY ACTING IN SELF-DEFENSE OR DEFENSE OF ANOTHER UNDER THE SELF-DEFENSE ACT, 2006 PA 309, MCL 780.971 TO 780.974

Couple that with this definition of Brandishing (also linked in reply #16 of this thread):

"BRANDISH" MEANS TO INTENTIONALLY POINT, WAVE ABOUT, OR DISPLAY IN A THREATENING MANNER THAT WOULD INDUCE FEAR IN A REASONABLE PERSON.

and I think it looks pretty good and is definitely an improvement over what we have now.

Great job guys. I hope it moves forward.

i'm glad that they added the self defense portion, my hope is that the day I need to use my gun in self defense that brandishing it will be all I need to do with it. It would be dumb if it was legal to shoot a home invader or whatever, but pointing it at him and yelling would send me to jail because I had restraint.

[Tallbear]

HB 5091 of 2013 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-5091)
Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling. Amends sec. 234e of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.234e). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5092'13
Last Action: 3/6/2014 referred to second reading
HB 5092 of 2013 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-5092)
Weapons; other; definition of brandish; provide for. Amends sec. 222 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.222). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5091'13
Last Action: 3/6/2014 referred to second reading

[bigt8261]

As we mentioned on Thursday, the brandishing definition bills that we have been pushing PASSED the Michigan House. Not only did they pass, but they passed with overwhelming bipartisan support.

HB 5091 - PASS - 104-5
HB 5092 - PASS - 105-4

Michigan Open Carry would like to extend our thanks to the two sponsors. Rep. Joel Johnson (R-Clare) and Rep. Brandon Dillon (D-Grand Rapids)

Now the bills will head to the Senate where MOC expects similar support. Follow the link to see who voted against each bill.

Official Legislative Update:
http://us4.campaign-archive2.com/?u=710075bba75b914b805e1861a&id=6ab143bed3

[TheQ]

i'm glad that they added the self defense portion, my hope is that the day I need to use my gun in self defense that brandishing it will be all I need to do with it. It would be dumb if it was legal to shoot a home invader or whatever, but pointing it at him and yelling would send me to jail because I had restraint.


Just to be clear, the level of "reasonable and honest" fear of life/limb you'd have to "Brandish", is the same you'd have to have in order to use deadly force. So if you're carrying out an act of self-defense using deadly force, and the person fleas before you have the chance to take the shot, you couldn't be charged with Brandishing -- if (under the circumstances) that same jury would have found you could have lawfully carried out that use of deadly force.

[Tallbear]

HB 5091 of 2013
Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling. Amends sec. 234e of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.234e). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5092'13
Last Action: 3/18/2014 REFERRED TO COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY

HB 5092 of 2013
Weapons; other; definition of brandish; provide for. Amends sec. 222 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.222). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5091'13
Last Action: 3/18/2014 REFERRED TO COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY

[who dat]

HB 5091 of 2013
Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling. Amends sec. 234e of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.234e). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5092'13
Last Action: 3/18/2014 REFERRED TO COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARY

HB 5092 of 2013
Weapons; other; definition of brandish; provide for. Amends sec. 222 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.222). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5091'13
Last Action: 3/18/2014 REFERRED TO COMMITTEE ON JUDICIARYSo where does the carry in waistband or pocket fit in this? It apparently isn't exempted under 5091 although isn't brandishing under 5092.

[bigt8261]

So where does the carry in waistband or pocket fit in this? It apparently isn't exempted under 5091 although isn't brandishing under 5092.

Those two things do not need to be exempted because they would not fall under the definition of brandishing.

HB 5092: "BRANDISH" MEANS TO POINT, WAVE ABOUT, OR DISPLAY IN A THREATENING MANNER WITH THE INTENT TO INDUCE FEAR IN ANOTHER PERSON.

[sse]

"BRANDISH" MEANS TO INTENTIONALLY POINT, WAVE ABOUT, OR DISPLAY IN A THREATENING MANNER THAT WOULD INDUCE FEAR IN A SCARED RABBIT.

[TheQ]

So where does the carry in waistband or pocket fit in this? It apparently isn't exempted under 5091 although isn't brandishing under 5092.

It seems you are looking at the original bills. The bills have been modified since introduction. Look at the bills as they were passed by the House -- that is the current language.

[who dat]

I was looking at Tallbear's post #34. If there's one more current, I'll try and find it.

My question was mainly directed at 5091 and is not related to brandishing. I'm aware or the definition of brandishing.

It seems that the stand alone definition of carrying is limited to holstered or slung. On the face of 5091, there is a loophole that could cause somebody to get jacked up if carrying with a pocket clip, tucked in a waistband, or in any pocket without a "holster".

ETA: Is there even wording regarding holster or sling in the final bill and if so, where is it? I ask because it's not here: HB-5091, As Passed House, March 13, 2014

[bigt8261]

I was looking at Tallbear's post #34. If there's one more current, I'll try and find it.

My question was mainly directed at 5091 and is not related to brandishing. I'm aware or the definition of brandishing.

It seems that the stand alone definition of carrying is limited to holstered or slung. On the face of 5091, there is a loophole that could cause somebody to get jacked up if carrying with a pocket clip, tucked in a waistband, or in any pocket without a "holster".

The holstered or slung language no longer exists. MOC worked with the sponsors to amend BOTH bills in committee. Please see the versions as passed by the house.

HB 5091 as passed by the House (https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2013-2014/billengrossed/House/pdf/2013-HEBH-5091.pdf)

HB 5092 as passed by the House (https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2013-2014/billengrossed/House/pdf/2013-HEBH-5092.pdf)

[who dat]

The holstered or slung language no longer exists. MOC worked with the sponsors to amend BOTH bills in committee. Please see the versions as passed by the house.

HB 5091 as passed by the House (https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2013-2014/billengrossed/House/pdf/2013-HEBH-5091.pdf)

HB 5092 as passed by the House (https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2013-2014/billengrossed/House/pdf/2013-HEBH-5092.pdf)

Thanks.

[kryl]

This looks like it would no longer be illegal to shoot an air rifle in your backyard (or dwelling )in those towns that have an ordinance against shooting a firearm in your backyard or dwelling.

[bigt8261]

This looks like it would no longer be illegal to shoot an air rifle in your backyard (or dwelling )in those towns that have an ordinance against shooting a firearm in your backyard or dwelling.

HB 5091 and HB 5092 have no effect on this. Only display intended to cause fear.

[TheQ]

This looks like it would no longer be illegal to shoot an air rifle in your backyard (or dwelling )in those towns that have an ordinance against shooting a firearm in your backyard or dwelling.

Discharge ordinances are not preempted. See MCL 123.1102. Air rifles are not firearms and thus are not preempted.

[bigt8261]

Also 123.1104 (if it were a firearm)

"This act does not prohibit a city or a charter township from prohibiting the discharge of a pistol or other firearm within the jurisdiction of that city or charter township."

[TheQ]

Also 123.1104 (if it were a firearm)

"This act does not prohibit a city or a charter township from prohibiting the discharge of a pistol or other firearm within the jurisdiction of that city or charter township."

Since 1102 doesn't mention discharge, that would be assumed -- but 1104 makes it explicit.

[Raggs]

TheQ "no gun bills will make it off of the Senate floor (other than 610 and the NRA's FOIA package) until after the elections"

What happens to this bill if as you predict it doesn't get signed by RINO Rick? It will have to be reintroduced after the election?

[kryl]

Since 1102 doesn't mention discharge, that would be assumed -- but 1104 makes it explicit.

I thought that I read that an air rifle is not a firearm according to one of these bills

[wizzi01]

TheQ "no gun bills will make it off of the Senate floor (other than 610 and the NRA's FOIA package) until after the elections"

What happens to this bill if as you predict it doesn't get signed by RINO Rick? It will have to be reintroduced after the election?

Do you really have to spew crap every time TheQ posts(not just on this forum)? You should take it to pms or just be quiet.

[Divegeek]

What happens to this bill if as you predict it doesn't get signed by RINO Rick? It will have to be reintroduced after the election?

The legislature will have almost two months after the elections before the bill will expire. They have to get it to the nerd's desk by t the end the year. Preferably they would do out at least 2 weeks before Christmas so that the pocket veto would not in play.



Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[bigt8261]

The legislature will have almost two months after the elections before the bill will expire. They have to get it to the nerd's desk by t the end the year. Preferably they would do out at least 2 weeks before Christmas so that the pocket veto would not in play.

^ this

[TheQ]

TheQ "no gun bills will make it off of the Senate floor (other than 610 and the NRA's FOIA package) until after the elections"

What happens to this bill if as you predict it doesn't get signed by RINO Rick? It will have to be reintroduced after the election?

If the Governor doesn't sign it within 14 days, it becomes law automatically (provided the legislature is still in session).

[Tallbear]

COMMITTEE: Judiciary

DATE: Tuesday, April 22, 2014

TIME: 2:30 p.m.

PLACE: Room 110, Farnum Building, 125 W. Allegan Street, Lansing, MI 48933

PHONE: Tony Mosesso (373-5323)
Committee Clerk



AGENDA

SB 834 Sen. Pavlov Weapons; licensing; firearm records; clarify exemption under the freedom of information act.

SB 881 Sen. Hansen Weapons; licensing; firearms records; clarify what records are exempt under the freedom of information act.

HB 5091 Rep. Johnson Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling.

HB 5092 Rep. Dillon Weapons; other; definition of brandish; provide for.

HB 5325 Rep. Crawford Weapons; licensing; definition of firearms records; provide for.

HB 5327 Rep. Rendon Weapons; licensing; firearms records; exempt from freedom of information act and provide for disclosure only under certain circumstances.

HB 5328 Rep. Cotter Weapons; licensing; firearm records; clarify what is exempt under the freedom of information act.

[Tallbear]

HB 5091 of 2013
Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling. Amends sec. 234e of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.234e). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5092'13
Last Action: 4/21/2014 Analysis File Added

HB 5092 of 2013
Weapons; other; definition of brandish; provide for. Amends sec. 222 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.222). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5091'13
Last Action: 4/21/2014 Analysis File Added

[Tallbear]

HB 5091 of 2013
Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling. Amends sec. 234e of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.234e). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5092'13
Last Action: 4/23/2014 REFERRED TO COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

HB 5092 of 2013
Weapons; other; definition of brandish; provide for. Amends sec. 222 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.222). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5091'13
Last Action: 4/23/2014 REFERRED TO COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

[Tallbear]

HB 5091 of 2013
Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling. Amends sec. 234e of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.234e). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5092'13
Last Action: 4/23/2014 Analysis File Added

HB 5092 of 2013
Weapons; other; definition of brandish; provide for. Amends sec. 222 of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.222). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5091'13
Last Action: 4/23/2014 Analysis File Added

[Tallbear]

HB 5091 of 2013
Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling. Amends sec. 234e of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.234e). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5092'13
Last Action: 12/15/2014 PLACED ON ORDER OF THIRD READING WITH AMENDMENT(S)

[bigt8261]

The tiebar was broken and 5091 is now moving forward without 5092 in the Senate. 5092's brandishing definition was amended into SB 965 in the House. It's a bit round-a-bout but we expect end result to effectively be the same.

[Tallbear]

HB 5091 of 2013
Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling. Amends sec. 234e of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.234e). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5092'13
Last Action: 12/16/2014 laid over one day under the rules

[Tallbear]

HB 5091 of 2013
Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling. Amends sec. 234e of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.234e). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5092'13
Last Action: 12/17/2014 bill ordered enrolled

[Roundballer]

Vetoed by the Governor 12/30/2014

2013-HB-5091 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%282wdxxp55u3ij1pzjdvgnfv45%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-5091&query=on)

[LibertyComrade]

"Better a Republican than a Democrap!!!!1one"

[Divegeek]

Vetoed by the Governor 12/30/2014

2013-HB-5091 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%282wdxxp55u3ij1pzjdvgnfv45%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2013-HB-5091&query=on)

What was his excuse this time? :eyeroll:

[langenc]

At least he didn't just get to set on he pot.

[Tallbear]

HB 5091 of 2013
Weapons; other; brandishing a firearm; exempt the carrying of a firearm that is holstered or carried on a sling. Amends sec. 234e of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.234e). TIE BAR WITH: HB 5092'13
Last Action: 12/30/2014 vetoed by the Governor 12/30/2014

[GLOCKME]

Wow, just wow!!
I thought that this was a fairly "easy" bill for the "Nerd" to sign to say "See,I can help you guys out"!!
I knew he was no friend but he doesn't even want to throw us a bone!!

[alclarkey]

What's the likelihood of a veto override?

[esq_stu]

wow, that law should not have been in any way controversial

[Divegeek]

What's the likelihood of a veto override?
Zero, for 2 reasons. #1 they can't because the 2014 legislative session has ended and the 2015 crew isn't allowed to override vetoes from the previous session. #2 the current republicans in Lansing have refused to override a veto Snyder to perpetuate the image of party unity.

[esq_stu]

What was his excuse this time? :eyeroll:http://www.michigan.gov/documents/snyder/HB_5091_veto_letter_477946_7.pdf

[45/70fan]

Between Obama, Snyder, Boehner, Mc Connell and the cajoneless Republicans in the US Congess and Mi state legislatures as a gun owner, I feel totally abanded by my governments.

[Roundballer]

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/snyder/HB_5091_veto_letter_477946_7.pdf
And that is the problem with trying to lump so much into one bill like 789 or the group of tie-barred bills on air rifles. You lose some good legislation because of what gets "amended" into the bills.

[langenc]

Couple yrs ago a gun orgn, this one maybe, was going to get all gun legislation to be 'one issue/problem. Then pass up/down and wed know where the problem(s) lie.

Who will readmit brandishing legislation and MOVE it to the govs desk, like it or not. Im going to ask my reps as soon as they get around and I meet them??

[bigt8261]

And that is the problem with trying to lump so much into one bill like 789 or the group of tie-barred bills on air rifles. You lose some good legislation because of what gets "amended" into the bills.

The reason 5092 was lumped into 965 is because 5092 was sponsored by a Dem and Richardville refused to move a Dem bill.

Look for this legislation and the air gun stuff to come back next session and move very quickly. It is already in the works and we already have commitments from all leadership including the Gov. This veto was NOT an ideological veto. As much as I would like burn the governor, I can't on this one.

[JM4859]

Zero, for 2 reasons. #1 they can't because the 2014 legislative session has ended and the 2015 crew isn't allowed to override vetoes from the previous session. #2 the current republicans in Lansing have refused to override a veto Snyder to perpetuate the image of party unity.

How does number 2 make sense in their minds? So republicans vote for this bill then the republican governor vetoes it...wouldn't common sense say that in itself diminishes the image of party unity? I guess asking for common sense in politics is where I probably went wrong.

[bigt8261]

It's a long story but you should read it. Here is the full story on what happened with the brandishing bills.
--------------------------------------
Michigan Open Carry, Inc's attempt to define what it means to "brandish" in Michigan has resulted in a veto from Governor Snyder, though the situation is complicated and not as bad as it sounds. Read on for the full story.

http://www.miopencarry.org/news/2015/01/Brandishing-Bills-Vetoed

[Roundballer]

It's a long story but you should read it. Here is the full story on what happened with the brandishing bills.
--------------------------------------
Michigan Open Carry, Inc's attempt to define what it means to "brandish" in Michigan has resulted in a veto from Governor Snyder, though the situation is complicated and not as bad as it sounds. Read on for the full story.

http://www.miopencarry.org/…/20…/01/Brandishing-Bills-Vetoed


Page not found
The requested page "/%E2%80%A6/20%E2%80%A6/01/Brandishing-Bills-Vetoed" could not be found.
You can't copy it from where someone else has posted it, you have to copy it from the URL of the page, else you don't get the whole URL.

I'd like to see as much information as possible. On 2A rights, not all Dems are libretards. If Richardville dropped the ball on this one just because of a set of party blinders, he needs to go.

[bigt8261]

You can't copy it from where someone else has posted it, you have to copy it from the URL of the page, else you don't get the whole URL

Yep, sorry. My fault. Fixed.

[Roundballer]

Yep, sorry. My fault. Fixed.
Thank you.

This gives some encouragement:


This is because arrangements have already been made to move an 8 bill "Airgun-Brandishing" package early and quickly next session. There is new leadership in both the House and the Senate and both, along with the Governor's office, have reportedly signed off and committed.

We are once again feeling optimistic, though we are not taking anything for granted. We will be working diligently to ensure that all commitments are lived up to. Expect to see new bills submitted early on and, if promises are kept, moved quickly to the Governor.

But we all have heard this before. At least the leadership is changing. It should not be about kowtowing to the Gov, it should be about giving the people what they need and fixing bad law.

Then again we had several promises about fixing the problem that we have with measuring OAL, and nothing yet, not even an AG opinion, which was what they were going to go after first.

[DP425]

Well, it deff isn't the end-state we all wanted, but our laws are confusing enough as it is. I think the current plan of action- assuming it is actually executed, is a solid plan and makes much more sense than passing only half of the bills... leaving parts of the law contradictory.

[bigt8261]

I know we've heard it before. I wish I could provide more but I can't.

If partisanship hadn't gotten in the way, we would probably have a definition for brandishing right now.

[G36 Shooter]

I will be following this and letting my State Rep. (Hank Vaupel) know we need these reforms. 2A March April 29.