AK74 Magwell

[Joeywhat]

Anyone here opened up the magwell on an AK74 single stack? I'm about to do it...just need the high cap mags as a template. Anything to look out for? I was going to either start with a die grinder then finish up with a dremel, or just doing the whole thing with it.

Any tips, hints or tricks? Just trace the mag outline onto the receiver and start cutting?

[RifleGuy]

Got access to a mill, or at least a drill press? You can get much cleaner results than using a hand grinder.

[Joeywhat]

I do have access to a drill press, although it's in pretty rough shape...how would you use the drill press anyways?

[RifleGuy]

Block the receiver solidly into a vice, mount your cutting bit into the press, then us the press to move the cutter. Really, you need a 2 axis table like a mill, but can fake it with a cobbled fram to slide the vice along. Something to keep the cutter at a constant depth. Cutting by hand will produce a wavy surface, no matter how careful you are.
If you end up using the dremel or die grinder, leave the surface a bit proud, finish by hand with abrasive paper backed by a solid (and flat!) block. A lot more time consuming, but a much better end result.

[Joeywhat]

OK, I'll see if I can setup something like that. The press is pretty ghetto, so we'll see...

[TFin04]

I've done it completely with a dremel. I was able to take measurements from a factory double stack gun though (it was a quality US made Nodak receiver).

Tracing the mag itself will not be big enough. You need to have a bit of play in there.

Beware of the small L Brackets that are tack welded to the sides of the receiver. They stop the single stack mag from wobbling. You will need to remove these. You can cut them or pry them from the tack weld, but beware that it may pull the weld all the way through the receiver and leave a small hole. Won't really hurt anything though. I pried them off the one I did but it was a beater gun for a buddy of mine. He shoots it a lot and wasn't too worried about it.

[Joeywhat]

Well, in the event that I'm not able to do it, anyone in the metro detroit area do this sort of thing for a reasonable fee?

I'd rather pay someone to do a good job then have myself do a crap one...

[customizedcreationz]

Yeah you can bring it by and I can do it for you.

Not a big deal. Bring that XD for polishing and some cash and I ll let you walk with a Custom P6 too !! LOL.

But seriously if you want it done, I ve done several and you can drop it off , go grab some dinner around the corner and come back to it already for hi caps.
:mg:

[Joeywhat]

...I might just take you up on that...the AK part, that is!

Trust me, if I wasn't buying a house in a few months, that Sig would've been mine when I first saw the ad :mischeif:


You might get a PM from me in a few days...

[MrBi11]

Please educate me....


Doesn't section 922 (r) stating:

It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes

linked to Section 478.39 stating:

Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun
using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph (c) of this
section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under
section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily
adaptable to sporting purposes.
(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:
(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution
by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or
agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political
subdivision thereof; or
(2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of
testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the
provisions of Sec. 478.151; or
(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into
or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the
replacement of any part of such firearm.
(c) For purposes of this section, the term imported parts are:
(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8 ) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18 ) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

[T.D. ATF-346, 58 FR 40589, July 29, 1993]

Make it an illeaglly manufactured firearm if you have more than 10 imported parts when you open up the magwell?

wouldn't you need to swap out a bunch of stuff to US made parts [ie:grips, handgards etc.] to make it okay?


I'm not bashing, I want to know!

Thanx

[Joeywhat]

I've already got the US parts, I just need to put them in.

[MrBi11]

I've already got the US parts, I just need to put them in.

So in answer to my question.... my understanding is correct, just opening the mag well would create an evil item?

[Joeywhat]

So in answer to my question.... my understanding is correct, just opening the mag well would create an evil item?

Sure. I'm not positive if all single stack AK's are 100% import parts, or if there are some with US parts as well. Mine is 100% romanian, so the parts are needed.

[Tedfs]

So in answer to my question.... my understanding is correct, just opening the mag well would create an evil item?


What I have gathered from these dumb laws is this.

Some guns are imported as single stack versions with a thumb hole stock to get around some of the U.S. parts compliance issues and are sold as "Sporters"

The full capacity rifles have the required count, or more than required, of U.S. parts and can be sold as any other normal rifle would.

Keep in mind you can't use more than 10 imported parts from the ATF list.


1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings,
forgings or stampings
2) Barrels
3) Barrel extensions
4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
5) Muzzle attachments
6) Bolts
7) Bolt carriers
8) Operating rods
9) Gas pistons
10) Trigger housings
11) Triggers
12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates


So those imported magazines count as 3 parts by themselves and can make an imported rifle thats close to the parts count go over and then be illegal.
If you use that "like new" barrel that came with the kit, that's 4 imported parts. It goes on and on...

ATF passed these laws in order to stop the flow of full auto parts into civilian hands, end of story. Those parts kits are de milled machine guns and while they can't be reassembled into a functional weapon as they are, ATF feels safer knowing Joe Blow doesn't have the ability to manufacture a machine gun in his home workshop from all those imported parts he has laying around.

It's all scare tactics, the ATF wants you to be scared of breaking their laws and don't mind confusion over them.

[paulb]

[QUOTE=Tedfs]What I have gathered from these dumb laws is this.


Keep in mind you can't use more than 10 imported parts from the ATF list.


1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings,
forgings or stampings
2) Barrels
3) Barrel extensions
4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
5) Muzzle attachments
6) Bolts
7) Bolt carriers
8) Operating rods
9) Gas pistons
10) Trigger housings
11) Triggers
12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates


So those imported magazines count as 3 parts by themselves and can make an imported rifle thats close to the parts count go over and then be illegal.
QUOTE]

A typical AK will have 16 of the listed parts so you will usually have to replace 6 of the parts on a foreign made gun to be compliant. It is best to "not" count the magazine parts when adding up your compliance parts because simply changing a magazine can make the gun illegal. When you're building one the parts you usually change to US made parts are:

Receiver
Muzzle attachment
Trigger
Hammer
Disconnector
Gas piston

If as in this case the gun is already built with a foreign receiver then you need to change out some other part such as the pistol grip etc... The reason you usually change these parts is it will not change the outward appearance of the gun while still maintaining 922 compliance.

[CallmeDave]

I'm so confused. If I bought say a single stack from Dunams if I convert that to a highcap magazine that goes over the legal part count?
If I bought a double stack form Dunams it would be legal? I thought there were imported AK's so are they Illegal or do they have American made parts?
Sorry for the questions but I'm hoping to buy an AK sometime.

[Joeywhat]

I'm so confused. If I bought say a single stack from Dunams if I convert that to a highcap magazine that goes over the legal part count?
If I bought a double stack form Dunams it would be legal? I thought there were imported AK's so are they Illegal or do they have American made parts?
Sorry for the questions but I'm hoping to buy an AK sometime.

In short, if it has a high cap magwell, it needs no more then 10 imported parts. If you are buying it at store and it's already accepting high caps, it's been converted already (probably by Century). If you buy a low cap model, they can be 100% imported, as long as it can't accept larger mags.

If you're just buying from some dude, make sure that the magwell wasn't just opened up on a full import model...at least not without adding some US parts in. I doubt any reputable gun shop will sell a rifle that is not legal, so I wouldn't worry about that.

[CallmeDave]

In short, if it has a high cap magwell, it needs no more then 10 imported parts. If you are buying it at store and it's already accepting high caps, it's been converted already (probably by Century). If you buy a low cap model, they can be 100% imported, as long as it can't accept larger mags.

If you're just buying from some dude, make sure that the magwell wasn't just opened up on a full import model...at least not without adding some US parts in. I doubt any reputable gun shop will sell a rifle that is not legal, so I wouldn't worry about that.

Thanks for the reply. I have been looking all over the web for an answer, you explained it clearly and easy. To be honest some of the gun law stuff goes over my head fast . . . it must be the lack of common sense in the law's that just baffles me haha.:p

[who dat]

For further confusion, the ATF told me you simply cannot make something into something which cannot be imported at the time you convert it.

[wombat12]

I have not personally inspected one, but I have it on good authority that all single stack WASRs sold in at least the past three years have the US trigger group and piston. Easy enough to check- look for Tapco or a "C" mark on the side of the trigger. A WASR single stack would start with 14 parts if 100% Romanian (normal AK has 16; less flash hider, pistol grip =14). If the single stack has the US trigger group (three parts) and piston,it has the magical 10 imported parts. If converting a 100% imported WASR single stack, the easiest way is to replace parts is to replace thumbhole stock with US stock set (try Amazon for good pricing), and use US mags. That will make you better than compliant.

Good instructions on opening mag well:
http://www.ak47.net/lite/topic.html?b=4&f=79&t=68410

[TFin04]

I have not personally inspected one, but I have it on good authority that all single stack WASRs sold in at least the past three years have the US trigger group and piston. Easy enough to check- look for Tapco or a "C" mark on the side of the trigger. A WASR single stack would start with 14 parts if 100% Romanian (normal AK has 16; less flash hider, pistol grip =14). If the single stack has the US trigger group (three parts) and piston,it has the magical 10 imported parts. If converting a 100% imported WASR single stack, the easiest way is to replace parts is to replace thumbhole stock with US stock set (try Amazon for good pricing), and use US mags. That will make you better than compliant.

Good instructions on opening mag well:
http://www.ak47.net/lite/topic.html?b=4&f=79&t=68410

The WASR2 I opened up did not have a US trigger group. Not sure on the piston as there are no markings.

[wombat12]

The WASR2 I opened up did not have a US trigger group. Not sure on the piston as there are no markings.

I believe the WASR2 predates the most recent ban, and does have more than 10 imported parts. A good site for info on the full range of Romanian AK type rifles and great gunsmithing guides is:

http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/

[TFin04]

Not sure on the exact dates, but it was purchased from Dunhams a few months ago and they are constantly in and out of stock of them. If I had to make assumptions, it came from Century pretty recently.

[wombat12]

Not sure on the exact dates, but it was purchased from Dunhams a few months ago and they are constantly in and out of stock of them. If I had to make assumptions, it came from Century pretty recently.

Check the linked site: go to AK types and look at WASR-2. Is yours hi cap and pistol grip stock? If so, it has compliant parts to be 922r legal.

[TFin04]

Check the linked site: go to AK types and look at WASR-2. Is yours hi cap and pistol grip stock? If so, it has compliant parts to be 922r legal.
Maybe you misunderstood my first post.

The WASR2 came with a single stack mag well and the dragonov style stock. I opened up the mag well myself and added the proper US parts. It did not come with any from Dunhams, like your first post suggests.

[wombat12]

OK, curiosity got the best of me. Went to Dunhams at lunch and looked over all their single stacks (I've bought a few rifles from the salesman there, so he humored me). Both 5.45x39shad original triggers; three of four 7.62x39s had original, the other had a Tapco. Salesman said one he bought a couple months ago was also Tapco. Knowing that some of the original Romanian triggers suffered from "trigger slap", I'm wondering if the rifles with Tapco triggers were returned to Century for repair, and had Tapco triggers installed.

Here' my take on opening a single stack to double stack and staying 922r compliant. The rifle, with no mag in the well will have ten imported parts.
1) 7.62x39. This one is easy for those of us not mechanically inclined. Just buy a Thermold, USA made poly mag ($12.95 from IO,Inc) and you are good to go. You can also use a US made stock set and Tapco slant muzzle break ( dremeling off the muzzle nut). This will only remove one imported part (the Draganov style stock), so still requires a USA mag.
2) This one is not for the faint of heart. The problem is that I'm not aware of any reasonably priced 5.45x39 USA mags.
To make the rifle compliant with imported mags, you'll have to replace the trigger group with a USA made set. If you replace the stock with a pistol grip type, at least two of the three pieces will have to be US parts.

[paulb]

1) 7.62x39. This one is easy for those of us not mechanically inclined. Just buy a Thermold, USA made poly mag ($12.95 from IO,Inc) and you are good to go. You can also use a US made stock set and Tapco slant muzzle break ( dremeling off the muzzle nut). This will only remove one imported part (the Draganov style stock), so still requires a USA mag.
2) This one is not for the faint of heart. The problem is that I'm not aware of any reasonably priced 5.45x39 USA mags.
To make the rifle compliant with imported mags, you'll have to replace the trigger group with a USA made set. If you replace the stock with a pistol grip type, at least two of the three pieces will have to be US parts.

It isn't hard to replace the trigger group, gas piston, muzzle brake or stock/pistol grip. You shouldn't use magazine parts as 922 compliance parts, what happens if you sell the gun and the person who buys it puts an imported magazine in it?

[wombat12]

You shouldn't use magazine parts as 922 compliance parts, what happens if you sell the gun and the person who buys it puts an imported magazine in it?

The BATF will swoop down on the buyer's house, gut the inside, put his children in foster care, sell all his worldly goods at auction, and throw the buyer in jail for 20 years. Seriously, unless you have a meth lab or taking part in another illegal activity, your chances of running afoul of BATF are slim to none. The exception would be if you were to buy single stacks in quantity, modify them to hi cap and sell them at a profit, you could run into problems for MANUFACTURING non compliant weapons. While surfing a multitude of forums on the web, I have never seen an instance where an individual has been prosecuted for violation of 922r that didn't involve more serious charges. That being said, all my semi-autos are compliant- not because I fear a BATF raid, but because I am a law abiding citizen.

[TFin04]

OK, curiosity got the best of me. Went to Dunhams at lunch and looked over all their single stacks (I've bought a few rifles from the salesman there, so he humored me). Both 5.45x39shad original triggers; three of four 7.62x39s had original, the other had a Tapco. Salesman said one he bought a couple months ago was also Tapco. Knowing that some of the original Romanian triggers suffered from "trigger slap", I'm wondering if the rifles with Tapco triggers were returned to Century for repair, and had Tapco triggers installed.

Here' my take on opening a single stack to double stack and staying 922r compliant. The rifle, with no mag in the well will have ten imported parts.
1) 7.62x39. This one is easy for those of us not mechanically inclined. Just buy a Thermold, USA made poly mag ($12.95 from IO,Inc) and you are good to go. You can also use a US made stock set and Tapco slant muzzle break ( dremeling off the muzzle nut). This will only remove one imported part (the Draganov style stock), so still requires a USA mag.
2) This one is not for the faint of heart. The problem is that I'm not aware of any reasonably priced 5.45x39 USA mags.
To make the rifle compliant with imported mags, you'll have to replace the trigger group with a USA made set. If you replace the stock with a pistol grip type, at least two of the three pieces will have to be US parts.

The only problem with this theory is US made AK mags don't work worth a damn. I'd rather replace some parts inside to make the gun easier to shoot and change out the furniture to something lighter (polymer) or something better looking (Walnut, Beech, whatever).

[wombat12]

The only problem with this theory is US made AK mags don't work worth a damn. I'd rather replace some parts inside to make the gun easier to shoot and change out the furniture to something lighter (polymer) or something better looking (Walnut, Beech, whatever).

Have to agree with you for most of them, but Thermold mags are first class. Same people that make the M16 mags for the Canadian military. They are lightweight, durable, and surefeed, and well priced.

[TFin04]

Have to agree with you for most of them, but Thermold mags are first class. Same people that make the M16 mags for the Canadian military. They are lightweight, durable, and surefeed, and well priced.

Hmph. Maybe I should show this post to the stack of 5 Thermold mags in the corner of my closet that wont feed a damn thing, regardless of ammo or gun they're used in. :D

My $9 steel surplus mags work great, even covered in rust.

[Joeywhat]

I ended up taking a bit off the bolt today...and it helped. The non-modified mag will now let the bolt cycle with no rounds in it, but with a full mag it still stops the bolt.

The modified mag seems to cycle normally, now. Hopefully I can get it out this weekend and put a few hundred rounds through it....give the AR a go as well :minigun: