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SeeTee
01-16-2014, 02:31 AM
MGO at the Outdoorama 2014, Feb 27~Mar 2

At the Suburban Collection Showplace 46100 Grand River Drive Novi, MI 48374 http://showspan.com/OUT/

Discount coupon- good for $2 off weekday admission

http://i59.tinypic.com/3160qw2.jpg


It is that time of the year again to call for volunteers, since many members have worked events for MGO, I will not drag out the post, If you are new to MGO or have not worked a event before and want to volunteer or want more information feel free to pm me with any questions you might have.

This event earns volunteers shift credits, MGO member Shift credits earned can be used as entry's for the MGO Gun of the year drawing, official policy can be read here; 24684

A big Thank You to all that helped out last year, all of you did a great job!


Here is a show plan on where to enter the building and to aid in locating the MGO booth, it is in a new spot this year. 24685

The new booth # is 5523


Directions to the Suburban Collection Showplace 29-OUT-map-dir-13.pdf (http://www.migunowners.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=20444&d=1360000737)

As we have done in the past, volunteers are welcome to bring a gun to display while they are working the booth, we will supply gun locks and a cable to anchor them to the table.


As usual I will be there for all shifts.

I need 1 person to help with set-up and anybody additional who would like to learn how to set-up the booth are welcome.

Set-up SeeTee, Detroitbassist,

Set-up will be Wednesday the 26th, we need be there between 10:30 am~ 11 am


Thursday February 27, 2014 set-up & show time 1pm to 9:30

Shifts

(1) 1pm to 6 pm Kaeto, SeeTee

(2) 5:30pm to 9:30pm RaoulDuke, Jgreen, SeeTee


Friday February 28, 2014 12 noon to 9:30
Shifts

OOPS- 12noon to 2pm SeeTee, Detriotbassist (4pm )

(3) 2pm to 6pm Garbo, OpEngineerVet (4:30,) SeeTee

(4) 5:30pm to 9:30pm -tedalton, CnA, mideerslinger, SeeTee


Saturday March 1 , 2014 10 am to 9pm
Shifts

(5) 10am to 2pm - Kilt Guy, Magnum Man, MiniMag, SeeTee

(6) 1:30 pm to 5:30pm- Kilt Guy, tedalton, debdalton,Seetee

(7) 5:00pm to 9pm- Kilt Guy, tedalton, debdalton, Travisthared, SeeTee


Sunday March 2, 2014 10am to 5pm
Shifts

(8 10am to 2:00pm dmd7765, XDM 40cal, mideerslinger, TomServo434, SeeTee

(9) 1:30pm to 5:30pm mideerslinger, TomServo434, wolfeman5, SeeTee

(includes the pack up)

Kaeto
01-18-2014, 08:56 PM
The links to the event policy, and booth location pdfs are broken.

SeeTee
01-18-2014, 10:50 PM
I just checked all the links, showspan IS broken, the other three links work for me, running windows 7 & firefox.

I'll get on the showspan link.


Update- fixed showspan link, checked all links with win7 & ie10, win7 & firefox they work for me.

Please let me know if anybody has a problem viewing the links.

Kaeto
01-18-2014, 10:58 PM
I click on the links and it tells me I don't have permission to view the page

CnA
01-18-2014, 11:00 PM
I click on the links and it tells me I don't have permission to view the page

Same here.

SeeTee
01-18-2014, 11:03 PM
That will happen if you are not logged in, but apparently you are, I would suggest you check with Photo Tom or Ziggy to resolve the issue.

I really can't say why it doesn't work for you.

update -pm sent to forum admin. to check into the problem.

They still work for me.

mikeb32
01-18-2014, 11:20 PM
I just checked, They are all working for me.

SeeTee
01-18-2014, 11:30 PM
I think the problem is fixed now thanks to a tip from Ziggy.

Kaeto, CnA, please check all the links to see if they are working now.

Mike, I think you as a mod, and I as a AC member have different permission's that is why it works for us.
The problem may have been caused because I had cut & pasted from the AC forum, I needed to reload the attachments while in this sub-forum.

Thanks for letting me know guy's, let me know if they are working for you or not.

CnA
01-18-2014, 11:49 PM
The links work now.

SeeTee
01-19-2014, 12:12 AM
Chuck, thank you for checking.

Kaeto
01-19-2014, 12:52 PM
Works for me too.

ncracer409
01-21-2014, 08:28 AM
Works for me too

jgreen
01-22-2014, 11:14 AM
PM sent for volunteering.

wwjmaj
01-22-2014, 02:01 PM
PM sent for volunteering.

THANK YOU for volunteering AND becoming an MGO Member. Your payment upgrade is in process according to the Membership Chair sorry you had difficulty giving pp your forum id.

:cheers:

mikeb32
01-22-2014, 02:04 PM
THANK YOU for volunteering AND becoming an MGO Member. Your payment upgrade is in process according to the Membership Chair sorry you had difficulty giving pp your forum id.

:cheers:

It is being processed as we speak....huh, Type!!!

SeeTee
01-22-2014, 08:05 PM
PM sent for volunteering.

Reply sent

SeeTee
01-30-2014, 12:28 PM
Less then a month to go!

We still need help with set-up and have shift's open.

Now is the opportunity to participate in an event, meet & work with fellow MGO people & to go beyond the the keyboard, + You get to have a good time and see the show!

Any forum members wanting to step-up to a MGO membership? here is a path to earn that with the first shift you work.

TomServo434
02-08-2014, 08:48 PM
PM sent for volunteering

Garbo
02-11-2014, 09:55 AM
I'm about 80% sure I can be there for set up but cant commit 100%. But I'll be there if I can

telephoneman
02-11-2014, 05:53 PM
pm sent

SeeTee
02-12-2014, 10:18 AM
Telephoneman, your mail box is full, please make room. Thank you.

OpEngineerVet
02-15-2014, 06:12 PM
I am interested in volunteering. Could someone please PM on what I need to do to sign up. I work around the corner from the show place and could volunteer for a night shift. I have a rifle I built that I could display as well. Thanks.

SeeTee
02-15-2014, 07:49 PM
I am interested in volunteering. Could someone please PM on what I need to do to sign up. I work around the corner from the show place and could volunteer for a night shift. I have a rifle I built that I could display as well. Thanks.

PM sent.

SeeTee
02-21-2014, 02:25 PM
Less then a week away!

Here is a Discount coupon- good for $2 off weekday admission, you can copy and print out.


http://i59.tinypic.com/3160qw2.jpg

cmike
02-22-2014, 09:05 PM
I just checked all the links, showspan IS broken, the other three links work for me, running windows 7 & firefox.

I'll get on the showspan link.


Update- fixed showspan link, checked all links with win7 & ie10, win7 & firefox they work for me.

Please let me know if anybody has a problem viewing the links.
I think you are doing great with your activism. :salute:

SeeTee
02-26-2014, 08:19 AM
A year passes like nothing, it's set-up day again!!

Tomorrow it's showtime!!

I'll see everybody soon at the show, any last questions, pm me today, I will check in later tonight.

If at anytime after today you need to contact me just call, All volunteers should have received a pm with my contact #.


A big thank you to all helping out this year!!

mikeb32
02-26-2014, 03:34 PM
Update From OutDooRama


Well we maneuvered the Trailer through, Boats and Trailers, and People and got the MGO Trailer to our spot inside the Showplace.

The MGO Booth is now in the Process of being set up for the Show which starts Tomorrow and runs through this Sunday.

A Special Thanks to SeeTee (Carl) and DetroitBassist(Ken) who are setting up the booth and arranging everything.

The only thing we need now is................YOU!!!!!!!

SeeTee
02-26-2014, 09:38 PM
Long Day, we finely left after 7pm!
Just a few little things to do tomorrow, setting up the literature and merchandise on the tables.

A big thank you to Ken, Detroitbassist, who put a lot of work & artistic input into making the booth what it is.


Just a quick pic as we left it.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2d0c7kx.jpg

mikeb32
02-26-2014, 10:22 PM
Looks good guys!!

SeeTee
02-27-2014, 12:31 PM
On my way,

Its SHOW TIME!!!

mideerslinger
02-27-2014, 02:35 PM
Looks good cant wait

Magnum Man
02-27-2014, 03:47 PM
Long Day, we finely left after 7pm!
Just a few little things to do tomorrow, setting up the literature and merchandise on the tables.

A big thank you to Ken, Detroitbassist, who put a lot of work & artistic input into making the booth what it is.


Just a quick pic as we left it.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2d0c7kx.jpg
Right next to the bar! Should be a high traffic area. Nice job on the booth setup.

mikeb32
02-27-2014, 05:49 PM
*****URGENT UPDATE*****


For everyone planning on attending and for those working the booth at Outdoorama this weekend, I just received a call from Carl (SeeTee) stating that they have been told that there are NO Guns Allowed in OutDoorama and that anyone who is in attendance that is observed with a firearm will be asked to leave and if they don't comply the authorities will be called!!

They are using the "This is an Entertainment Venue, that has a 2,500 seating capacity argument"

Based on Carl's statement, this is the first time in our 5 years of having a booth there that this rule has been in effect.

Sorry to be the Bearer of bad news guys, but it is what it is.

tedalton
02-27-2014, 06:48 PM
Then in my opinion we should pack up our booth and gtfo.

mikeb32
02-27-2014, 06:58 PM
Then in my opinion we should pack up our booth and gtfo.

That was my first "Gut" reaction as well, but then I thought about it a little more.

We have a lot of time and money tied up in this show, if we just packed up and left now we would have no chance of recouping some of our investment through the sales of merchandise and memberships.

This show is by far the most expensive show that MGO does throughout the year, so I would say that even though the rules to the game have changed, this year, we stick it out, stay the path, and then get the rules straight before we even think about reserving our spot for next year.

If these are going to be the rules we have to play by, it is very easy for my vote to be cast!!

xxarea83xx
02-27-2014, 07:40 PM
Saw this on Facebook. I won't be attending

tedalton
02-27-2014, 07:56 PM
I understand what you are saying Mike, but as a general rule I do not support places that don't support my rights. I will still go for my shifts, but if this were known beforehand I would not have volunteered.

zigziggityzoo
02-27-2014, 08:07 PM
So since when do they have a fixed seating capacity?

Magnum Man
02-27-2014, 08:09 PM
Wow I can't believe this. They should refund all of our fees since they gave us no notice of the new rules. What a slap in the face. How much money are we talikng about.

dmd7765
02-27-2014, 08:10 PM
The seating capacity is irrelevant, they have the right to deny

zigziggityzoo
02-27-2014, 08:15 PM
The seating capacity is irrelevant, they have the right to deny

Yes, but they're hiding behind state law to do so, per Mike.

To me, there's a huge difference between "We can't let you carry, the law won't let us" and "We aren't letting you carry."

fozzy71
02-27-2014, 08:17 PM
If the booth is paid for and a refund won't happen I would suggest you throw good money after bad and make new back drops that explain why the MGO booth is empty and give the contact info for the organizer/location so those who object to the policy can complain. And obv leave flyers so those who like the fact that MGO left the booth empty on principle know how to find the forum or join/donate.

Magnum Man
02-27-2014, 08:40 PM
Here are some numbers to voice your displeasure with this decision.

Suburban Showplace: 1-248-662-0012 During show hours.

1-248-348-6400 Ask for Blair

Show Producer: Henry Boucher 1-616-299-6089

bradymsu
02-27-2014, 08:41 PM
Two years ago, at the request of one of our volunteers, I called ShowSpan, the company that operates both Outdoorama and the Ultimate Sports Show in GR and asked about open and concealed carry. They told me that DeVos does not prohibit carry but the Novi Expo Center does. I have advised our volunteers of that every year since. A number of these places have no carry policies to help protect their legal exposure in the event of a lawsuit resulting from a shooting -not because they are politically against carry. Meijer, similarly, has a little known policy against carry but it is rarely ever enforced unless there is a complaint from another customer. I am not aware of anyone who has ever been asked to leave Outdoorama for carrying. MCRGO participates in Outdoorama because given the amount and the demographics of the guests, it makes sense for us to be there to fight for our cause. The National Rifle Association, Michigan Gun Owners and MUCC are there as well for those same reasons. The early Christians didn't restrict themselves to preaching the gospel only in places where their message was welcome. Similarly, we can't afford not to be pragmatic in preaching our shared message. It's that political pragmatism that has allowed us collectively to achieve shall-issue concealed carry, the Castle Doctrine and Stand Your Ground among other advancements in recent years.

Michigan Gun Owners has a great booth at the event. It makes MCRGO's and the NRA's look amateur. I stopped by your booth after setting up ours and donated some Molon Labe bracelets for your volunteers. Best wishes for a successful show and we'll see you in Grand Rapids in three weeks.

-Brady, MCRGO

tedalton
02-27-2014, 09:00 PM
Yes, but they're hiding behind state law to do so, per Mike.

To me, there's a huge difference between "We can't let you carry, the law won't let us" and "We aren't letting you carry."
That's what I told Mike. We need to try to pin them down on their reason. If they actually think the seating capacity is the reason we can argue that with them. If we can get them to admit that they just don't want guns there then we know where they stand and we can remind them about the eastern sports and outdoor show from last year.

Magnum Man
02-27-2014, 09:16 PM
That's what I told Mike. We need to try to pin them down on their reason. If they actually think the seating capacity is the reason we can argue that with them. If we can get them to admit that they just don't want guns there then we know where they stand and we can remind them about the eastern sports and outdoor show from last year.
The woman I talked to (who was relaying information from someone else) claimed that is was due to seating capacity. When I informed her that it was fixed seating she came back with the excuse that alcohol was being sold there.

mikeb32
02-27-2014, 09:20 PM
We will be getting to the bottom of this, but we will do it in a Professional way, and not the way they sprung this on us.

RaoulDuke
02-27-2014, 11:13 PM
I am guessing it was open carrying that triggered this all?

I know the management. I put 2 rifles and a pistol on the MGO table last year...

I will get the answer for you right from ownership but it will have to wait until tomorrow.

Flooding them with calls isn't going to acomplish anything.

OpEngineerVet
02-28-2014, 12:11 AM
So, can I bring my rifle to display or not? Thanks. I'll still be there for my shift as well. Not happy about them pulling this last minute stunt anymore than everyone else. Let's at least be more professional than they were to us.

adam9er
02-28-2014, 12:27 AM
So, can I bring my rifle to display or not? Thanks. I'll still be there for my shift as well. Not happy about them pulling this last minute stunt anymore than everyone else. Let's at least be more professional than they were to us.

I was there yesterday at the NRA booth. I did see multiple booths with firearms on display. I would think that we are still able to have them on display but not on our person. :shrugs:

SeeTee
02-28-2014, 12:31 AM
Hi Guy's

I just got home about 11p catching my breath, long day again and an interesting one.

I guess it was one guy OC and one guy "printing" so we covered both bases!!

There no statement of no guns in the contract with Showspan, nor the website and nowhere in any advertising that I have seen, there is no signage on any door of a gun free zone and no notice of seating capacity anywhere.

In the past we have CC & OC and seen patrons of the event do the same, much to the denial that it never happened before as was said by one of the House "security" T-shirt, SPSC or Showspan personal, I am not sure who he is with. IMHO he was a little rude.

I will not type it all out here, we can all talk about it at the meet & greet or another time.

First if any volunteer wants to stay home, I am fine with that and hold nothing against you, I respect your decision what ever it may be, you are all great people, no problem about feelings, if you and not going to be there for your shift just please call me and let me know.

I have talked with the people at other booth's MCRGO & NRA, to pass along the information I learned, they were as surprised too! one booth worker was happy to be leaving anyway, his shift was over.

We did talk to a lot of people today, had questions asked and answered, people were happy for the information, we had a very positive response from the public, 4 new memberships too.

We handed out a lot of 2A fliers and also fliers for the meet & greet, they were well received too, thanks to dmd7765 for printing them up!

We could leave in protest (did that in a band long ago) anything we leave in the empty place it indicate why (except the empty space ) will do doubt removed.

If we stay, we can tell everybody about what we know, (we know many were carrying there today ) I am sure the reason they do not make public notice of the fact that this is a " criminal enterprise zone" is that some will stay away and they and we know that will impact the box office, how much no one will never know or admit to.

If they say we can't talk to people, then we have another civil rights issue about free speech, I didn't see anything posted about that either.


We are GTG to bring a unloaded cased firearm to display, we have gun locks at the table and a tether so no chance of a grab and go.


btw, Brady thank you for the compliments on the MGO booth, a lot of time & work went into by the volunteers to make it happen and thanks for the bracelets too they are / will be passed onto the volunteers & sorry I missed seeing you at the show.

jgreen
02-28-2014, 08:27 AM
I want to thank SeeTee for giving me a warm welcome at the booth last night. As a newb, I didn't know quite what to expect. I was standing right there when all of this went down, and this is my take on the issue.

Showspan is not the culprit in all of this. After talking to the event organizer last night after the show closed, it's clear to me that he doesn't care if we carry or not, but the owner of the building and liquor license does. The bigger issue here is that they are NOT consistent with enforcing this. I felt as if SeeTee and Kaeto were singled out because their guns were visible and/or partly visible. We spoke to at least a dozen "customers" that were carrying last night. The bigger problem was with the Mall Cop supervisor that came up to "Help", and threatened SeeTee with arrest if he didn't get rid of the gun or leave.

We definitely took the high road, but not without telling them exactly how we felt about it. Aside from this incident, it was a great show and there is a lot of interest in or organization. I couldn't ask for a more professional group to be a poart of.

mikeb32
02-28-2014, 08:36 AM
Thanks for the update JGreen.......And Thanks for helping out at the booth.

OpEngineerVet
02-28-2014, 08:54 AM
I'm already at work, didn't bring it with me since I didn't know if I could be it or not. Oh well, maybe I can get the wife to bring it out to me haha!

SeeTee
02-28-2014, 09:05 AM
Thanks for the words Jon, it was nice to meet and work with you, you did just fine and took right to it!


Just a note guy's I do not have internet access at the show and can't read anything posted on the forum, that includes any pm, so if you need to contact me call or text, right now I am headed to the shower.

mikeb32
02-28-2014, 11:57 AM
I just got off the phone with Blair Bowman, Who is the Head Honcho at the Suburban Showcase.

In a Nutshell, He said that Suburban Showcase is a PFZ he cited the reasons below and I'm not sure we have anything to stand on to argue with them.

I asked why there is nothing on their web site to notify people of this, and he said it is not required for them to post or notify them.

He said they are a PFZ:

1) They have a seating capacity of 15,000.......When I mentioned "Fixed Seating" he came back with "The law states nothing about the seating being fixed.

2) The sale of alcohol is a Primary source of income at Outdoorama. When I asked if the sale of alcohol, by the glass accounted for more than 50% of their income, he countered with "It would be up to you or anyone else to prove it doesn't"

3) We are a Privately owned facility and we have a No Firearms Policy.
When I asked, How is the public supposed to know that? He countered with "It is the CPL holders duty and responsibility to know the laws pertaining to them carrying a Firearm"

He also stated that their policies have not changed in the last 21 years and if we have been carrying in Previous years, we were just lucky we were not caught.

I am not sure where we go from here, but i am certainly not ready to reserve the booths for next year at this point in time.
__________________
"Tell Me No Lies, I'll ask you No Questions"

tedalton
02-28-2014, 12:03 PM
Sounds like it's time to let them know we will not be attending next year, and will be actively campaigning against the venue. We also need to contact showspan and let them know we would be happy to attend their show at a different venue, but we will not attend or support them at suburban collection.

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 12:34 PM
If they are claiming they are a PFZ I wouldn't roll the dice with Novi PD and this clown: http://www.freep.com/article/20140203/NEWS03/302030093/Novi-judge-Mackenzie-new-allegations

Where is the fixed seating language coming from? 28.425o (2) (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

So is the only standing issue here the open carry by a CPL holder?

zigziggityzoo
02-28-2014, 12:34 PM
According to their reasons, Open carry with CPL would still be lawful.


As a private property they can ask people to leave if they didn't know the private property policy beforehand - but that's about it.

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 12:40 PM
According to their reasons, Open carry with CPL would still be lawful.


As a private property they can ask people to leave if they didn't know the private property policy beforehand - but that's about it.

He says they have no policy so maybe they have an ill informed lawyer or need to come out and say "we have a no open carry policy"?

Looking for clarification before I ask for clarification through, um, more friendly channels.

Seems like they think they are doing a CPL holder that is printing a favor.. and may be... Novi PD would be the answer to that.

dmd7765
02-28-2014, 12:43 PM
According to their reasons, Open carry with CPL would still be lawful.


As a private property they can ask people to leave if they didn't know the private property policy beforehand - but that's about it.

As a private property they can ask you to leave at anytime, whether or not you knew about it before hand, open carry or concealed is irrelevant. And if you don't leave, they can call the police and have you arrested for Trespass.

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 12:46 PM
As a private property they can ask you to leave at anytime, whether or not you knew about it before hand, open carry or concealed is irrelevant. And if you don't leave, they can call the police and have you arrested for Trespass.

This is true but its not what ownership is saying... reading between the lines:

1. "You can't legally concealed carry here, we are doing you a favor by telling you before the PD arrests you". They firmly believe they are a PFZ.

2. They don't know a CPL can open carry OR they have a policy but don't "have a policy".

I think they are correct on #1.

I think they are ill informed on #2.

Magnum Man
02-28-2014, 01:05 PM
I find it hard to believe that MGO did not verify that CC/OC was permissable in previous years. IMHO we should demand a refund, make a stand and pack up the display and leave the facility.

dougwg
02-28-2014, 01:23 PM
If they feel it's a PFZ then there should be NO GUNS THERE AT ALL!

screw them

Pack it up and get as many others as we can to also leave!

dougwg
02-28-2014, 01:25 PM
I have 2 free admission tickets at the shop for anyone willing to stand on the side of freedom and also about 40 buy one get one free ticket...

pick up at ATEi

dougwg
02-28-2014, 01:36 PM
I'll leave work right now and come out to help break down the booth.

And I want MCGRO and NRA to do the same!

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 01:43 PM
If they feel it's a PFZ then there should be NO GUNS THERE AT

The PFZ only applies to CPL law. If it is a PFZ under the law that's not their fault. they can still legally have gun shows and allow people to display weapons but as you know a CPL holder is violating the law, not their rules, if they are a PFZ.

That said, not allowing CPL holders to open carry seems to be very much their ignorance or their decision. Don't know which yet.

Magnum Man
02-28-2014, 01:45 PM
I'll leave work right now and come out to help break down the booth.

And I want MCGRO and NRA to do the same!
I can be there in a couple hours. We should all pull out our displays and alert the media.

tedalton
02-28-2014, 01:48 PM
What about talking to showspan and asking them to "exert some influence" maybe?

CnA
02-28-2014, 02:29 PM
Since I'm already scheduled to take off work to man the booth, I'll show up about 3:45, but to only help pack. We should not be there and MGO should get a refund for paying for costs. Period. I can't in good conscience stay and man the booth.

I normally bring an AR to display, but not now.

I realize mikeb32 said,

"This show is by far the most expensive show that MGO does throughout the year, so I would say that even though the rules to the game have changed, this year, we stick it out, stay the path, and then get the rules straight before we even think about reserving our spot for next year."
Sorry, this is bowing down and taking it. Gun owners have been far to passive and that's why these turds get away with it. We need to pack up, leave, and put up some signs stating why. Next step is considering if a small claims lawsuit to recover costs due to an undisclosed policy would be winnable.

I also normally go early and buy stuff there, but not this time. I'll be telling the vendors I refuse to do business to the firearm policy.

CnA
02-28-2014, 03:03 PM
How about we put up a bunch of these in the booth?
I can print out a couple 8.5 x 11 sheets and bring them up.

Magnum Man
02-28-2014, 03:10 PM
How about we put up a bunch of these in the booth?
I can print out a couple 8.5 x 11 sheets and bring them up.
:score: :thumbup: :thup: :thumbup: :flag:

dougwg
02-28-2014, 03:17 PM
:yeahthat:

RogueLeader
02-28-2014, 03:31 PM
Or, you can use this as an educational opportunity for the public, about the absurdity of some of MIs laws concerning the ownership and carrying of a firearm, even after going through the hoops to get a CPL.

That is, demonstrate the need for organizations like MGO to stand up for gun owner rights. Organizations who want to work to fix the problems with PFZs and special classes exempt for PFZs. Work to simplify the laws, not make them ore complex. Simplify them so that that apply fairly to all. Simplify them to remove confusion over what is legal and not legal; and to remove the confusing laws that some companies like to cower behind.

right2bear
02-28-2014, 03:54 PM
Since I'm already scheduled to take off work to man the booth, I'll show up about 3:45, but to only help pack. We should not be there and MGO should get a refund for paying for costs. Period. I can't in good conscience stay and man the booth.

I normally bring an AR to display, but not now.

I realize mikeb32 said,

"This show is by far the most expensive show that MGO does throughout the year, so I would say that even though the rules to the game have changed, this year, we stick it out, stay the path, and then get the rules straight before we even think about reserving our spot for next year."
Sorry, this is bowing down and taking it. Gun owners have been far to passive and that's why these turds get away with it. We need to pack up, leave, and put up some signs stating why. Next step is considering if a small claims lawsuit to recover costs due to an undisclosed policy would be winnable.

I also normally go early and buy stuff there, but not this time. I'll be telling the vendors I refuse to do business to the firearm policy.


I agree 100% And think that if MGO stays it's showing weakness by folding to the anti crowd.

Kilt Guy
02-28-2014, 04:19 PM
A few years ago Woods & Water would not allow us to carry but we stayed and had a good show. We meet a ton of people at this show and as much as it sucks I think we will hurt our selves more than we will hurt them. The Novi Gun & Knife show does not allow OC or CC yet we still go. I will be there tomorrow for all three of my shifts with empty holster on my hip and if asked why I will tell them. :twocents:

Magnum Man
02-28-2014, 04:30 PM
A few years ago Woods & Water would not allow us to carry but we stayed and had a good show. We meet a ton of people at this show and as much as it sucks I think we will hurt our selves more than we will hurt them. The Novi Gun & Knife show does not allow OC or CC yet we still go. I will be there tomorrow for all three of my shifts with empty holster on my hip and if asked why I will tell them. :twocents:

What changed W&W's mind and persuaded them to allow carry? The empty holster is a good idea.

Kilt Guy
02-28-2014, 04:33 PM
A few years back the W&W weekend fell on 9-11 and they were worried. About what I am not sure. I know that I have carried at W&W every year before and after.

mikeb32
02-28-2014, 04:40 PM
A few years ago Woods & Water would not allow us to carry but we stayed and had a good show. We meet a ton of people at this show and as much as it sucks I think we will hurt our selves more than we will hurt them. The Novi Gun & Knife show does not allow OC or CC yet we still go. I will be there tomorrow for all three of my shifts with empty holster on my hip and if asked why I will tell them. :twocents:

Well said, Sir!


I have been off the Forums for a few hours, had to go see my favorite rib Dr.

I am in the Process of contacting each Board Member to make a decision one way or the other.

Just to clarify my post from earlier about my conversation with the head honcho.

There is "No Firearms" allowed in the venue, what so ever.

No Concealed carry, No Open Carry, and No Open Carry with a CPL.
I just got off the phone with SeeTee, and he said if we pull out and post signs as to why we left, they will be taken down within minutes of being put up.
He also said, that they are explaining to everyone coming to our booth, why they have "Empty" Holsters.

Just maybe with the exhibition of empty holsters being displayed and the explanation as to why there empty, this could become a fantastic explanation of why Michigan Firearms laws need to be changed.

I am just a small part of MGO and will abide by what ever decision we make.

Just to edit with a suggestion.

CNA can you make up a bunch of those signs and take them with you, with the verbage added to say " Because of this Venue's Policy on Firearms this will be MGO's last participation in OutDoorama"

Ruger
02-28-2014, 04:46 PM
I just got off the phone with Blair Bowman, Who is the Head Honcho at the Suburban Showcase.

In a Nutshell, He said that Suburban Showcase is a PFZ he cited the reasons below and I'm not sure we have anything to stand on to argue with them.

I asked why there is nothing on their web site to notify people of this, and he said it is not required for them to post or notify them.

He said they are a PFZ:

1) They have a seating capacity of 15,000.......When I mentioned "Fixed Seating" he came back with "The law states nothing about the seating being fixed.

2) The sale of alcohol is a Primary source of income at Outdoorama. When I asked if the sale of alcohol, by the glass accounted for more than 50% of their income, he countered with "It would be up to you or anyone else to prove it doesn't"

3) We are a Privately owned facility and we have a No Firearms Policy.
When I asked, How is the public supposed to know that? He countered with "It is the CPL holders duty and responsibility to know the laws pertaining to them carrying a Firearm"

He also stated that their policies have not changed in the last 21 years and if we have been carrying in Previous years, we were just lucky we were not caught.

I am not sure where we go from here, but i am certainly not ready to reserve the booths for next year at this point in time.
__________________
"Tell Me No Lies, I'll ask you No Questions"

Then will there be no more gun shows there?

mikeb32
02-28-2014, 04:49 PM
No, I asked about that too.

His response to that was: The gun show sponsor is responsible for making sure that there are No Loaded Firearms in the Venue and that any brought in or carried in are unloaded in the discharge can upon entry and zip tied through the chamber.

CnA
02-28-2014, 06:18 PM
The Ohio Department of Natural Resources are there carrying their firearms even though they are out of their jurisdiction.

CnA
02-28-2014, 06:24 PM
Well said, Sir!


--snip--

CNA can you make up a bunch of those signs and take them with you, with the verbage added to say " Because of this Venue's Policy on Firearms this will be MGO's last participation in OutDoorama"

I left before I saw this. Dropped off 15 copies of these just in case the BOD made the decision to leave.

I can head up there again tomorrow morning with whatever wording the BOD wants. Just let me know.

mikeb32
02-28-2014, 06:29 PM
Thanks, I should be back home in a few hours, I will get with you then

partdeux
02-28-2014, 08:22 PM
Man the booth with the posted flyers so they don't remove them

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 10:22 PM
So still... the only beef here is a CPL holder not being allowed to open carry?

The LEO has reciprocity. LEO are exempt from PFZs under Michigan Law.
It is against MI law for a CPL to concealed carry at Suburban.

I was unaware that open carry by CPLs in a PFZ being stopped by a guy named Blair who is probably parroting a lawyer was reason to be unreasonable and seek clarification or take the time to advise Suburban.

Boycott what you want. As usual MGO will stab at its nose to spite its face.

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 10:24 PM
Then will there be no more gun shows there?

PFZs only affect CPL holders.

mikeb32
02-28-2014, 10:25 PM
So still... the only beef here is a CPL holder not being allowed to open carry?

The LEO has reciprocity. LEO are exempt from PFZs under Michigan Law.
It is against MI law for a CPL to concealed carry at Suburban.

I was unaware that open carry by CPLs in a PFZ being stopped by a guy named Blair who is probably parroting a lawyer was reason to be unreasonable and seek clarification or take the time to advise Suburban.

Boycott what you want. As usual MGO will stab at its nose to spite its face.

I guess I would like to know your point in this statement?
I was the one who talked to Blair Bowman.
I was the one who reported what he told me.
Could you please clarify your statement of how MGO could have done things better?

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 10:33 PM
I guess I would like to know your point in this statement?
I was the one who talked to Blair Bowman.
I was the one who reported what he told me.
Could you please clarify your statement of how MGO could have done things better?

Blair has corporate counsel up his ass.
Corporate counsel is wrong about CPL holders open carrying.
Blair is not in a position to override counsel.
By law, not by Blair, a CPL holder cannot carry there, the guy that printed screwed up.

So that leaves Suburban to decide about open carry...

They don't want a policy.

Maybe instead of the usual "get bent" everyone chills out for a day and instead of blowing up their phones and telling them to chow bag supplies them with theinfo (that has happened) that They need to adopt policy or acknowledge a CPL holder can open carry in the venue.

LEO carrying has 0 to do with this in or out of jurisdiction. They have reciprocity including PFZs so corporate counsel says let them carry... by law.

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 10:36 PM
You have an opportunity to TRY to win an ally or take up the usual boycotts rule ideology. Do what you see fit.

tedalton
02-28-2014, 10:42 PM
Blair has corporate counsel up his ass.
Corporate counsel is wrong about CPL holders open carrying.
Blair is not in a position to override counsel.
By law, not by Blair, a CPL holder cannot carry there, the guy that printed screwed up.

So that leaves Suburban to decide about open carry...

They don't want a policy.

Maybe instead of the usual "get bent" everyone chills out for a day and instead of blowing up their phones and telling them to chow bag supplies them with theinfo (that has happened) that They need to adopt policy or acknowledge a CPL holder can open carry in the venue.

LEO carrying has 0 to do with this in or out of jurisdiction. They have reciprocity including PFZs so corporate counsel says let them carry... by law.
According to what Mike said earlier Blair told him they have a no firearms policy.

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 10:51 PM
According to what Mike said earlier Blair told him they have a no firearms policy.

No, they have a no loaded firearms policy, maybe, per Blair... after Blair was pushed, cornered.

Again, CPL carry is not legal there.

So all that leaves you with is open carry. Is it possible, for a single person here, to understand that blair has 1/10th the knowledge tha average user here has? That he carries huge insurance polices? That attorneys are involved? That the last thing he wants is trouble? (like most of us at work?)

AND that if you chill out you can convey the ACTUAL LAW to him or his counsel?

Look, if it takes 72 hours for an official answer from a company that large MGO should accept that and not hammer the hell out of him.

If they decide on a no firearms policy, officially, then screw them. PEriod. Dont be so trigger happy.

Does MGO try to woo anyone or is it always "Agree or get bent"... like Obama?

mikeb32
02-28-2014, 10:52 PM
I guess that is why I am so confused about his statement.

Blair Bowman stated, one more time:

They have a "No Firearms Policy"

No Concealed Carry
No Open Carry
No Open Carry with a CPL

I don't think I left anything out, Did I?

tedalton
02-28-2014, 10:55 PM
No, they have a no loaded firearms policy, maybe, per Blair... after Blair was pushed, cornered.

Again, CPL carry is not legal there.

So all that leaves you with is open carry. Is it possible, for a single person here, to understand that blair has 1/10th the knowledge tha average user here has? That he carries huge insurance polices? That attorneys are involved? That the last thing he wants is trouble? (like most of us at work?)

AND that if you chill out you can convey the ACTUAL LAW to him or his counsel?

Look, if it takes 72 hours for an official answer from a company that large MGO should accept that and not hammer the hell out of him.

If they decide on a no firearms policy, officially, then screw them. PEriod. Dont be so trigger happy.

Does MGO try to woo anyone or is it always "Agree or get bent"... like Obama?
You need to make up your mind. It's either thay don't have a policy, or they have a "no loaded firearms" policy. It can't be both.

mikeb32
02-28-2014, 10:57 PM
No, they have a no loaded firearms policy, maybe, per Blair... after Blair was pushed, cornered.

Again, CPL carry is not legal there.

So all that leaves you with is open carry. Is it possible, for a single person here, to understand that blair has 1/10th the knowledge tha average user here has? That he carries huge insurance polices? That attorneys are involved? That the last thing he wants is trouble? (like most of us at work?)

AND that if you chill out you can convey the ACTUAL LAW to him or his counsel?

Look, if it takes 72 hours for an official answer from a company that large MGO should accept that and not hammer the hell out of him.

If they decide on a no firearms policy, officially, then screw them. PEriod. Dont be so trigger happy.

Does MGO try to woo anyone or is it always "Agree or get bent"... like Obama?

Nobody is hammering anyone, Nobody is Pushing anybody, Not even Blair.

I commented last night that I would find out what the policy is on Carrying a firearm inside the "Suburban Collection Showplace" during Outdoorama, to prevent any of the Boycott, in your face behavior that you are speaking of, and as VP of this Organization, I believe that is one of my duties to inform the Membership of their Policy.

I find it funny that you want to sit behind your keyboard, criticizing what and How we have done things. Even going to such lengths as telling us what Blair said.....Maybe I should check my phone for bugs.

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 10:58 PM
I guess that is why I am so confused about his statement.

Blair Bowman stated, one more time:

They have a "No Firearms Policy"

No Concealed Carry
No Open Carry
No Open Carry with a CPL

I don't think I left anything out, Did I?

Clearly he is confused.

CPL is illegal there. No question.
The clearly don't have a no firearms policy as they agreed to allow displays per SeeTee and have gun shows.

I'd give the open carry issue take more than 24 hours to work out.

I know their management. They are the furthest from MGO enemies as you can get. No one will give them a second to breathe and Blair needs to STFU for a minute.

People have a natural reaction, when pressed over and over in a very short period to say F U. We all know this.

Like I said, do what you want. I already said if they cant figure it out, as a corporation, in a fair time, screw them. You want answers on the spot and dude is confused...

Not sure that calls for all out war on them by MGO.

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 11:00 PM
Nobody is hammering anyone, Nobody is Pushing anybody, Not even Blair.


Ask them how many people have contacted them about this...

mikeb32
02-28-2014, 11:02 PM
You seem to have all the answers already, why don't you fess up?

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 11:06 PM
You seem to have all the answers already, why don't you fess up?

I have. Give it a minute. Not everything in life is a now or never proposition.

If people can't acknowledge these kinds of polices are complex and have many layers and relax for a minute they will get nowhere and be relegated.

For the last time, if they stand their ground, SCREW THEM. But damn is the knee jerk at MGO ridiculous.

mikeb32
02-28-2014, 11:15 PM
I have. Give it a minute. Not everything in life is a now or never proposition.

If people can't acknowledge these kinds of polices are complex and have many layers and relax for a minute they will get nowhere and be relegated.

For the last time, if they stand their ground, SCREW THEM. But damn is the knee jerk at MGO ridiculous.

My knees are firmly attached and are not jerking.
I was there Wednesday at set-up, I was on the phone yesterday with Carl when they were told "Put your Guns Away or leave" and if you don't leave with your guns we will call the police.

I was on the phone with Blair this morning to find out the Policy.

I fail to see where anything has been "Knee Jerk" on my part.

So your telling me that tomorrow everything is going to be "Magically" taken care of and Open Carry with a CPL will be acceptable?

Forgive me for being a bit skeptical, and btw you didn't answer my question about how many calls they have had from MGO.

I don't want to argue with you, But as an Officer of this Organization I feel I have done nothing Knee Jerk in this matter, and was very Professional in my conversation with Blair.

A "Knee Jerk" Reaction, in my opinion, would have been us saying " Ok guys, Lets go Tear down the Booth" We have never said that, I said last night, "Let me find out what their policy is and I will report back.

It seems like you are insisting that I/We handled the situation completely wrong.

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 11:19 PM
So your telling me that tomorrow everything is going to be "Magically" taken care of and Open Carry with a CPL will be acceptable?


Its not magic, its cool heads and information. MGO has traditionally had a very good relationship with Rock/Suburban.

Just say "By law, all this is about is open carry by CPLs" and lets see where it goes.

OR tell me, by law, how a CPL holder can concealed carry there. Tell me by law why the LEO cannot open carry there.

mikeb32
02-28-2014, 11:24 PM
Its not magic, its cool heads and information. MGO has traditionally had a very good relationship with Rock/Suburban.

Just say "By law, all this is about is open carry by CPLs" and lets see where it goes.

OR tell me, by law, how a CPL holder can concealed carry there. Tell me by law why the LEO cannot open carry there.

According to them, and this is the part that you are not seeming to grasp:

THERE IS NO CARRY OF ANY KIND IN SUBURBAN COLLECTION SHOWPLACE.

Leo's are Open Carrying There Currently, For Example, The State of Ohio DNR.

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 11:31 PM
According to them, and this is the part that you are not seeming to grasp:

THERE IS NO CARRY OF ANY KIND IN SUBURBAN COLLECTION SHOWPLACE.

Leo's are Open Carrying There Currently, For Example, The State of Ohio DNR.

This is so circular.

Its a PFZ.
A uniformed Ohio LEO (amongst many others) is allowed, by law, to open carry in MI. They need their lawyers to advise them a cPL holder can OC. Then they should be called on to adopt a plicy.

"there is no concealed carry here, by law, unless you are PFZ authorized (like CnAs cop)... not by our policy at Suburban, but by Michigan law" FACT

Blane the dick that printed or we wouldn't even be addressing this.

"You cannot open carry here as a civilian" <-- The problem

They are misinformed OR they have adopted a policy. Give it a minute. Blair is not the final arbiter.

Regardless... I was unaware that MGO was boycotting any business that doesn't allow open carry. Can you clarify sir?

Suburban can be a good ally. MGO can't hurt Suburban... they make their loot off of women's shows and sewing shows...

XDM 40 cal
02-28-2014, 11:33 PM
What a Cluster BEEP!...

Um, what a slap in the face to NRA, MGO, MCRGO....

The last two/Three show I did, Never did I have any issue CCing, and or Bring in my AR15, and My Alaskan... granted there is no ammo for either... Yet last year I bet there was many that were CCing, yea I seen the beer , but It like Arts beats and eats , just indoors.. IMO .

If this is there new rules then I think MGO should and do what has been suggested, Not return to this Venue.. Switch to a Fun shoot? ..New shooters and experience shooters too.

Seems to me that they have made there position clear...

fozzy71
02-28-2014, 11:39 PM
..........

Its a PFZ.
...

that is debatable imo

mikeb32
02-28-2014, 11:42 PM
Listen, I have told you everything that I have gone through in the last 3 days leading up to this point in time.

MGO the Organization does not control what it's Membership chooses to do or not do.

I am simply stating what I have done in the past 3 days concerning OutDoorama.

I did not choose to talk to Blair, they told me when I called to find out their Policy that Blair is the Man that is in charge of Policies and would have to call me back, That happened and I reported My findings back to the Membership.

Like I said earlier in this post, MGO does not endorse or support everything that the Membership decides to do, on their own.
To my knowledge, and since I have been around I have not seen MGO endorse any Boycotts that I can remember, Or for that matter, comment on what businesses to not patronize.
I could be mistaken, as I am speaking from memory.

It just seems that your criticism is being pointed at the wrong guy.

I will always hold my positions at MGO in great esteem, but this conversation with you and your "Riddle Logic" is really starting to get me to rethink my position!

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 11:44 PM
that is debatable imo

This is was adopted in late 2012 and is not ambiguous:

(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

Dude shouldn't have been printing and AGAIN, no CPL issue would have been brought up.

The easy CPL solution is to walk up to a novi cop patrolling the show and ask because they are whos going to enforce. Easy answer to who's riles for CPL Suburban is playing by.

If MGOs policy is to boycott places that don't allow open carry state that here and now.

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 11:45 PM
It just seems that your criticism is being pointed at the wrong guy.



No, you are internalizing me questioning what MGO does next.

zigziggityzoo
02-28-2014, 11:46 PM
IMO it's about the hypocrisy, not the fact that they ban open carry.

They cater to firearms owners and are hostile toward the same people they cater to.

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 11:48 PM
They cater to firearms owners and are hostile toward the same people they cater to.

Who was hostile? What was the nature of the hostility?

mikeb32
02-28-2014, 11:50 PM
No, you are internalizing me questioning what MGO does next.

I am done with this Game of Riddles, if you want to help out, get off your keyboard and come out and help, if not, just stay at home!

What does MGO do next?

Well the booth is still there, so obviously it wasn't tore down, or did you already know that?

Have a nice evening, I hope you find all the answers to the "Riddles" that you seek........They won't be coming from me anymore.

RaoulDuke
02-28-2014, 11:52 PM
I am done with this Game of Riddles, if you want to help out, get off your keyboard and come out and help, if not, just stay at home!

What does MGO do next?

Well the booth is still there, so obviously it wasn't tore down, or did you already know that?

Have a nice evening, I hope you find all the answers to the "Riddles" that you seek........They won't be coming from me anymore.

Sorry I missed Thursday, I am the president of a different 501c3 that had a meeting.

Tell me what you want... Open carry at Suburban?

dougwg
03-01-2014, 01:09 AM
My god ....why the hell don't both of you talk on a damn phone?

There is way too much lost in typing.

right2bear
03-01-2014, 06:41 AM
Didn't anyone check if carrying and displaying at the venue was ok AHEAD OF TIME?

CnA
03-01-2014, 08:50 AM
Didn't anyone check if carrying and displaying at the venue was ok AHEAD OF TIME?

No need to. There are no signs prohibiting firearms or declaring it a PFZ at the Surburban collection.

johnzilla
03-01-2014, 09:00 AM
Didn't anyone check if carrying and displaying at the venue was ok AHEAD OF TIME?

To my knowledge, MGO has always displayed a few firearms in safe, locked condition in its booth at Outdoorama. Or at least has done so for the last 4-5 years. Carry of any kind by an individual is another issue entirely.

Granted, maybe someone should have checked first if anything changed regarding the display of firearms in the booth, but having a booth at Outdoorama has been a pretty standard thing for MGO for many years.

SeeTee
03-01-2014, 09:06 AM
I can only check in once at he end of a long day, too much is going on to keep up with, multiple issues are getting crossed up along with people at each other & I am not a referee.

I don't want to close the thread, how about people catch their breath for a day, take it to pm and or exchange phone # by pm and talk if need be.

For the record display on the the table has not, is not, the issue or the problem, not in the past or now.

A simple post with update information has gone off the rails.

RaoulDuke
03-01-2014, 09:36 AM
No need to. There are no signs prohibiting firearms or declaring it a PFZ at the Surburban collection.

No sign is required for State mandated PFZs as the term applies to CPL holders. (You know this CnA)
Firearms are not prohibited and are on display.

No one has open carried at the MGO booth in the past. <--- Edit, not true.

My question is simple. Is all you want from suburban is to allow Civilian open carry during Ourdoorama? Because its the only issue here that is under their control.

tedalton
03-01-2014, 09:40 AM
No one has open carried at the MGO booth in the past.


That is just flat out untrue.
<----- this guy has, and wasn't the only one.

RaoulDuke
03-01-2014, 09:48 AM
That is just flat out untrue.
<----- this guy has, and wasn't the only one.

My apologies... I haven't seen it.

I can only ask so many times what the goal is. Do want Suburban to say "Its OK to Open carry here?" Do you want some for of apology?

What is it that MGO is seeking from Suburban and I will take it back to managment, including Blair

zigziggityzoo
03-01-2014, 10:11 AM
Yes, but they're hiding behind state law to do so, per Mike.

To me, there's a huge difference between "We can't let you carry, the law won't let us" and "We aren't letting you carry."

As I said, I want clarification.

If they have no policy whatsoever, I want to know that.

If they have a policy on firearms, I want to know what it is.

I know what state law says, and I don't want to hear that from them. I want to know THEIR stance, not what the law says.

RaoulDuke
03-01-2014, 10:15 AM
As I said, I want clarification.

If they have no policy whatsoever, I want to know that.

If they have a policy on firearms, I want to know what it is.

I know what state law says, and I don't want to hear that from them. I want to know THEIR stance, not what the law says.

I am going as their friends to try shape that stance. I won't even bring up MGO.

From what I understand Blair said:

1. You cannot concealed carry here. We are a PFZ under Michigan law (for one legit reason (capacity) and one questionable one (beer/booze sales).
2. You can display unloaded firearms.
3. You CANNOT open carry here CPL or not. (an by implication a LEO can)
4. We have no policy. (when it clearly appears they do or are suddenly confused about open carry laws).

Am I missing anything?

XDM 40 cal
03-01-2014, 10:16 AM
As I said, I want clarification.

If they have no policy whatsoever, I want to know that.

If they have a policy on firearms, I want to know what it is.

I know what state law says, and I don't want to hear that from them. I want to know THEIR stance, not what the law says.

Agreed, Zig ...

partdeux
03-01-2014, 10:30 AM
1. You cannot concealed carry here. We are a PFZ under Michigan law (for one legit reason (capacity) and one questionable one (beer/booze sales).

Maybe I missed it, why do they think they are a PFZ?

XDM 40 cal
03-01-2014, 10:53 AM
Maybe I missed it, why do they think they are a PFZ?

They think they fall under the 2500 seating rule.. yea right..

zigziggityzoo
03-01-2014, 10:57 AM
They think they fall under the 2500 seating rule.. yea right..

They might. Case law isn't really clear on this one.

adam9er
03-01-2014, 11:01 AM
Maybe I missed it, why do they think they are a PFZ?

They are claiming that they are an entertainment facility with a capacity of over 2,500 and that over 51% of their revenue comes from liquor by the glass sales.

The two days I was there I did not see any lines at the bars, nor did I see an drink in everyone's hand so I highly doubt that they sold more liquor than what they take in for parking. As for "entertainment facility" of over 2,500, I would like to know what they think their actual capacity is. Here is something I found relating to seating capacity. http://diamondbanquetcenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/SCS-Info-Packet.pdf

zigziggityzoo
03-01-2014, 11:07 AM
so the Diamond Center attached has 2000+ seats.

All they need are 500 seats in the Showplace and they have hit the exception.

I think it's fair to say they are a likely PFZ for that reason.

RaoulDuke
03-01-2014, 11:51 AM
so the Diamond Center attached has 2000+ seats.

All they need are 500 seats in the Showplace and they have hit the exception.

I think it's fair to say they are a likely PFZ for that reason.

First answer: They believe they are a PFZ because the MSP told them (via their attorney) that they are and entertainment complex with greater than 2500 capacity. "physical seats" are not relevant per the MSP.

I have nothing on the open carry but am working on it. I am not talking to Blair.

Kaeto
03-01-2014, 11:57 AM
The law also states they have to post that they have the seating capacity.

zigziggityzoo
03-01-2014, 12:41 PM
The law also states they have to post that they have the seating capacity.

Not true. It says HOW they must post if they do post.

If they do not post, then the prosecutor must prove that you KNOW or you SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that seating capacity exceeded 2500 individuals.

RaoulDuke
03-01-2014, 01:06 PM
The law also states they have to post that they have the seating capacity.

The capacities are posted, per the fire Marshall, but it does not use the word "seating". It says "maximum capacity" for each of the halls. I believe the law states that if a CPL holder can reasonably assume the capacity is over 2500 the sign is irrelevant to eh CPL holders potential charges.

Freetime
03-01-2014, 02:08 PM
It's hard to believe it has taken 14 pages to come to a simple solution! If you can't carry there and you don't want to go because of that issue, THEN DON'T GO! MGO has a booth for this year so finish the show this year, as no way you're getting a refund! Find out what the policy is for next year and then decide if MGO will participate or not, when all the facts are known!! Now wasn't that simple!!!! Damn this place is unbelievable, too much BS about such a simple solution! It seems like there's way too many drama queens on these forums most of the time.

CnA
03-01-2014, 04:07 PM
Dropped of some sign's this morning at the booth. When we were leaving, my wife couldn't remember one of the guy's name and referred to him as the guy in the skirt.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

mikeb32
03-01-2014, 04:15 PM
Thank you Sir!

dmd7765
03-01-2014, 05:07 PM
Sorry I missed Thursday, I am the president of a different 501c3 that had a meeting.

Tell me what you want... Open carry at Suburban?

Yes!- And have them pass this policy on to those that have shows there.

dmd7765
03-01-2014, 05:24 PM
My apologies... I haven't seen it.

I can only ask so many times what the goal is. Do want Suburban to say "Its OK to Open carry here?" Do you want some for of apology?

What is it that MGO is seeking from Suburban and I will take it back to managment, including Blair

Open carry at their venue, no matter the show, Outdoorama, Gun Show, whatever.

A pm to Mikeb32 that you have someone other than Blair to talk to would have been a good idea. When MGO calls the showplace and asks who to talk to and are given to Blair, then we assume he is the man in power. It is possible that MGO leadership would like to talk to this unknown power at the Collection.

bradymsu
03-01-2014, 06:30 PM
I just got home from Sen. Green's gun panel in the Thumb. The event went well, standing room only. Thanks to Jim Makowski for representing MGO on the panel.

Speaking as MCRGO, I'm chuckling reading the "controversey" over Outdoorama. Showspan, the company that operates Outdoorama told us several years ago that Suburban Collection Showplace has a no carry policy. However, Suburban Collection Showplace leaves it up to Showspan to enforce that policy and to my knowledge Showspan has never asked any of our volunteers if they were carrying concealed and never asked any of them to take their firearms out to their vehicle. Suburban Collection Showplace has never put up any signs and there isn't any "no carry" provision in exhibitor agreement. It's highly doubtful that the venue would be found to be a PFZ under state law and to my knowledge, they never claimed it was until Thursday of this week when pressed for a reason.

Most of us carry for self defense. Some of us carry to make a political point. Usually, these two reasons for carrying are compatible. But sometimes, as in this case, they aren't. A person carrying concealed should be careful not to print. A person carrying openly has an extra obligation to know if open carry is welcome in a private establishment before carrying there or at the very least respect that it's not if asked to leave.

It seems rather easy to read between the lines that Showspan is simply asking that they don't want to see anyone carrying. That's very understandable given their obligation under their contract with Suburban. Pushing the issue is counterproductive both to the purposes of carrying for self defense and to promoting concealed carry outside the home. Tens of thousands of gun owners are walking through Outdoorama this weekend. To not carry our message to those people by boycotting the largest outdoor show in the state would be incredibly foolish. The biggest beneficiaries of a boycott would be Moms Demand Action, Mayors Against Legal Guns and armed criminals.

I understand why Michigan Open Carry isn't at Outdoorama. They've never attended Outdoorama and weren't planning on attending this year. They can't open carry at the show. Their focus is solely open carry. That isn't the case for MGO and MCRGO. We have a much broader mission and the leadership of our organizations has a responsibility to be pragmatic in carrying that out.

fozzy71
03-01-2014, 06:58 PM
I just got home from Sen. Green's gun panel in the Thumb. The event went well, standing room only. Thanks to Jim Makowski for representing MGO on the panel.

Speaking as MCRGO, I'm chuckling reading the "controversey" over Outdoorama. Showspan, the company that operates Outdoorama told us several years ago that Suburban Collection Showplace has a no carry policy. However, Suburban Collection Showplace leaves it up to Showspan to enforce that policy and to my knowledge Showspan has never asked any of our volunteers if they were carrying concealed and never asked any of them to take their firearms out to their vehicle. .......

So you know they have a policy and admit that you and/or your attendees carried against that policy. Classy...

bradymsu
03-01-2014, 07:14 PM
So you know they have a policy and admit that you and/or your attendees carried against that policy. Classy...

I never said either I or our volunteers carry at Outdoorama. I advise our volunteers that the venue has a policy against carry. I don't ask our volunteers whether they carry. If I asked them, I'd expect them to tell me "None of your business." or "Do you see a gun on me?" which is the same answer I'd expect any CPL holder to give me if I asked if they were carrying.

Kilt Guy
03-02-2014, 08:42 AM
Despite the events about carrying at the show, Outdoorama was a HUGE success yesterday. Although a little loud at times due to the air dogs our location was excellent. We sold a lot of merchandise and memberships and the ability to take credit cards helped with this. At last count last night I do believe some where around 38 new paid members and a couple of these were for three years. I am sure See Tee will give a final count after the show.

I was also talking to some of the FNRA people and in years past they had members dressed as cowboys complete with holsters and guns. Nothing was ever said then just like those of us who OC in past years. What changed I am not sure but to leave this event over this would be a big mistake.

Kilt Guy

XDM 40 cal
03-02-2014, 09:29 AM
Despite the events about carrying at the show, Outdoorama was a HUGE success yesterday. Although a little loud at times due to the air dogs our location was excellent. We sold a lot of merchandise and memberships and the ability to take credit cards helped with this. At last count last night I do believe some where around 38 new paid members and a couple of these were for three years. I am sure See Tee will give a final count after the show.

I was also talking to some of the FNRA people and in years past they had members dressed as cowboys complete with holsters and guns. Nothing was ever said then just like those of us who OC in past years. What changed I am not sure but to leave this event over this would be a big mistake.

Kilt Guy
AWESOME Kilt! I agree with you, we do well at this event, but as our core message is to allow Everyone that is legal to Carry a firearm , should be able where it allowed.... :deal2:

dmd7765
03-02-2014, 03:39 PM
Another great day today even with the issues, thanks SeeTee and all the volunteers

RaoulDuke
03-02-2014, 04:57 PM
Open carry at their venue, no matter the show, Outdoorama, Gun Show, whatever.

A pm to Mikeb32 that you have someone other than Blair to talk to would have been a good idea. When MGO calls the showplace and asks who to talk to and are given to Blair, then we assume he is the man in power. It is possible that MGO leadership would like to talk to this unknown power at the Collection.

They aren't going to allow open carry at the Women's show, etc and it is likely they will enforce a no open carry policy, for civilian, at all events and that Blair isn't going to put it on paper. Do what you like with that info. Blair is in charge but it doesn't mean hes unswayable by the rest of his management team. At the end of the day I asked over and over if this was only about open carry because I didn't join MGO to fight that battle and to boycott every place that doesn't allow it.

I don't have someone for people I don't know to talk to to try to sway their boss, Blair. I know two of their high level managers that were getting clarification without it sounding like it was coming from MGO but rather his own team and letting him know they were hearing "chatter" he should clear up. Honestly, one of them was less than impressed with the individual that decided to DOUBLE open carry "because he had the right".

The thing I think Blair owes here is to grow a pair and state that they have a no open carry policy. I think that is a business ethics issue to say you don't have a policy when you do. On a personal note, I'd also like to know the name of the person/officer at MSP that advised they are a PFZ.

RaoulDuke
03-02-2014, 05:03 PM
Pushing the issue is counterproductive both to the purposes of carrying for self defense and to promoting concealed carry outside the home. Tens of thousands of gun owners are walking through Outdoorama this weekend. To not carry our message to those people by boycotting the largest outdoor show in the state would be incredibly foolish. The biggest beneficiaries of a boycott would be Moms Demand Action, Mayors Against Legal Guns and armed criminals.

I understand why Michigan Open Carry isn't at Outdoorama. They've never attended Outdoorama and weren't planning on attending this year. They can't open carry at the show. Their focus is solely open carry. That isn't the case for MGO and MCRGO. We have a much broader mission and the leadership of our organizations has a responsibility to be pragmatic in carrying that out.

:thumbup:

I think the vast majority of membershipg at MGO is against any further gun legislation at the state or federal level.
I think the vast majority support repealing many federal and state gun control laws.
I think a wide majority would like to see PFZs eliminated. (my original reason for joining)

I question what % of membership is concerned with boycotting businesses that don't allow open carry or pressuring private business owners to allow open carry. I don't think its a majority.

This is something the BoD should figure out. What MGO's priorities are and are not and proceed from there.

dmd7765
03-02-2014, 05:35 PM
They aren't going to allow open carry at the Women's show, etc and it is likely they will enforce a no open carry policy, for civilian, at all events and that Blair isn't going to put it on paper. Do what you like with that info. Blair is in charge but it doesn't mean hes unswayable by the rest of his management team. At the end of the day I asked over and over if this was only about open carry because I didn't join MGO to fight that battle and to boycott every place that doesn't allow it.

I don't have someone for people I don't know to talk to to try to sway their boss, Blair. I know two of their high level managers that were getting clarification without it sounding like it was coming from MGO but rather his own team and letting him know they were hearing "chatter" he should clear up. Honestly, one of them was less than impressed with the individual that decided to DOUBLE open carry "because he had the right".

The thing I think Blair owes here is to grow a pair and state that they have a no open carry policy. I think that is a business ethics issue to say you don't have a policy when you do. On a personal note, I'd also like to know the name of the person/officer at MSP that advised they are a PFZ.

Open carry was my selection due to them deciding they were a PFZ, leaving open carry as the only other available carry option. Whether they are a PFZ is irrelevant since they are private property and can dictate their own policy. MGO members now know they have a policy and can make decisions for themselves as to whether they attend functions at SCS.

RaoulDuke
03-02-2014, 05:41 PM
Open carry was my selection due to them deciding they were a PFZ, leaving open carry as the only other available carry option. Whether they are a PFZ is irrelevant since they are private property and can dictate their own policy. MGO members now know they have a policy and can make decisions for themselves as to whether they attend functions at SCS.

Thats fair.

Now, will MGO, as an organization, boycott Outdoorama due to the no open carry policy?

dmd7765
03-02-2014, 05:54 PM
Thats fair.

Now, will MGO, as an organization, boycott Outdoorama due to the no open carry policy?

I am sure the BOD will discuss our future participation in the show at some point. Whether it is in the short term I do not know. The BOD looks at our attendance in events on a case by case basis.

RaoulDuke
03-02-2014, 06:21 PM
I am sure the BOD will discuss our future participation in the show at some point. Whether it is in the short term I do not know. The BOD looks at our attendance in events on a case by case basis.

Again, fair. If its a no go for MGO because of OC I would be happy to know as it doesn't align with my personal priorities nor ideas of how MGO should operate.

As an aside, I don't think its appropriate for non-board members to be dropping signs at the MGO booth asking people to boycott the show, venue or whatever if they were actually displayed at the booth. Unless that is MGOs official position, as decided by the duly elected board those flyers should have been handed back or respectfully discarded. I don't want my money supporting that individual's position. And I think that's fair too.

dramey82
03-02-2014, 06:22 PM
I am sure the BOD will discuss our future participation in the show at some point. Whether it is in the short term I do not know. The BOD looks at our attendance in events on a case by case basis.
Now an opinion from someone on the outside looking in:

Was this effort to inform, recruit and sign up new members a success?

Other than having a firearm on your hip were there any disappointments?

Knowing now what is to be expected next year can't this be approached in a different way? that is unless things change.

Maybe more literature and discussion with visitors about the PFZ's could replace that firearm, meaning instead of complaining, fight the battle on their front with information.

If choosing not to attend this venue next year is the decision I'm sure you'll have all of our support, I just hope it's not a great opportunity that has been lost!

RaoulDuke
03-02-2014, 06:49 PM
Maybe more literature and discussion with visitors about the PFZ's ...

At last year's Outdoorama MGO had a petition at the booth to eliminate PFZs. IT was a good ice breaker.

dmd7765
03-02-2014, 06:50 PM
Again, fair. not attending because of attendance is different than not attending because of OC policy though so if its a no go because of OC I would be happy to know as it doesn't align with my personal values.

As an aside, I don't think its appropriate for non-board members to be dropping signs at the MGO booth asking people to boycott the show, venue or whatever if they were actually displayed at the booth. Unless that is MGOs official position, as decided by the duly elected board those flyers should have been handed back or respectfully discarded. I don't want my money supporting that individual's position. And I think that's fair too.

Attendance, money invested, general feeling of how the show went will definitely be discussed. I also believe that no carry option will also be talked about. I think that the uproar was the fact that there was a policy change and we were not notified in advance of the show. I worked the 10am-2pm shift today, and did not see any signs displayed. I believe they were made in anticipation of a possible official position which never materialized.

I agree that SCS has an obligation to make there policy known.

My personal position is you can't only go where "your crowd" is, you may have to go to venues and areas where your opinion might be in the minority to get your position heard by others. I am an MOC member myself and I do carry openly about 75% of the time. But I do change my carry as I see fit depending on circumstances.

RaoulDuke
03-02-2014, 07:00 PM
Attendance, money invested, general feeling of how the show went will definitely be discussed. I also believe that no carry option will also be talked about. I think that the uproar was the fact that there was a policy change and we were not notified in advance of the show. I worked the 10am-2pm shift today, and did not see any signs displayed. I believe they were made in anticipation of a possible official position which never materialized.

I agree that SCS has an obligation to make there policy known.

My personal position is you can't only go where "your crowd" is, you may have to go to venues and areas where your opinion might be in the minority to get your position heard by others. I am an MOC member myself and I do carry openly about 75% of the time. But I do change my carry as I see fit depending on circumstances.

From strictly an ethics standpoint, Blair needs say there is a no OC policy. I 100% support that stance asI think many others would/do.

If MGOs goal is to gain membership and raise awareness from people that arent already hardcore 2A educated MGO has to go places, a lot of places, where their are gun owners, hunters, etc. that aren't necessarily 2A educated at places that don't know the laws or don't support certain pieces. Honestly, a large portion of the public (that could be won over) is uncomfortable with OC at a place like Suburban, I don't agree with them, but its a fact and MGO must consider that when deciding priority and policy.

A big problem in a lot of this is that people think that the president of a Conference center is as educated on Michigan law as some people here and hes not. Frankly, this thread shows even some MGO members don't know the full ins and outs of CPL law or that its ambiguous.

The goal is education... not forced conformity or a club house attitude... right? I think we have to avoid the "OH MAN THEY DON'T SUPPORT ALL OF OUR POSITIONS LETS RUN" at all costs.. But thats just me.

dmd7765
03-02-2014, 07:17 PM
I think most of members are well versed on the law, however the law is grey not black and white. And because it's grey each person must decide for themselves what they are comfortable doing.

jgreen
03-03-2014, 12:08 PM
I have a couple of things to say on the show and how MGO handled themselves.

1. The show was pretty good. This was the first time I've ever attended Outdoorama, and in spite of the Open Carry issues with the building management, the show was pretty good.

2. Volunteering with MGO was really awesome. I met several very nice people, and I was accepted and made to feel comfortable right from the moment that I got there. I mention this because if anyone is on the fence about volunteering for an event, don't hesitate. It's a great way to get out and meet fellow members, especially if your a newbie like me.

3. MGO is the definition of professionalism and tact. This was the case with the folks that were there volunteering at the show that I had the chance to meet. I will definitely be volunteering again.

4. It is clear that this weekend at the Outdoorama was a success for MGO, and I personally think it would be a mistake to boycott this event in the future. Although I don't agree with SCS policy, I think that the good out weighs the bad in this situation.

SADAacp
03-03-2014, 02:18 PM
I have a couple of things to say on the show and how MGO handled themselves.

1. The show was pretty good. This was the first time I've ever attended Outdoorama, and in spite of the Open Carry issues with the building management, the show was pretty good.

2. Volunteering with MGO was really awesome. I met several very nice people, and I was accepted and made to feel comfortable right from the moment that I got there. I mention this because if anyone is on the fence about volunteering for an event, don't hesitate. It's a great way to get out and meet fellow members, especially if your a newbie like me.

3. MGO is the definition of professionalism and tact. This was the case with the folks that were there volunteering at the show that I had the chance to meet. I will definitely be volunteering again.

4. It is clear that this weekend at the Outdoorama was a success for MGO, and I personally think it would be a mistake to boycott this event in the future. Although I don't agree with SCS policy, I think that the good out weighs the bad in this situation.

I didn't attend this Outdoorama nor have I ever been to one. However, and IMHO, folks have to draw the line somewhere.

Based on what I've read thus far and to include the image, it appears considerable amount of time and money was spent to make this event happen/succeed. Again, IMHO, for this event, I do believe it was a wise choice to stay and not fold up the tents and vacate the premises. I would definitely suggest to reconsider any future events at this location.

MOC had a booth set up at GTC several years ago and the inbred from Hazard who apparently was in charge of the gun show wouldn't allow OC eventhough the off-duty trooper who was teaching CPL classes at the show was OK to OC with a thigh rig -- CC was OK. The point being, what good is it and what kind of a message does it send to those who are not as informed as the members of an grassroots, OC, etc, organization that are not allowed to carry, OC and/or CC?

XDM 40 cal
03-03-2014, 07:21 PM
I didn't attend this Outdoorama nor have I ever been to one. However, and IMHO, folks have to draw the line somewhere.

Based on what I've read thus far and to include the image, it appears considerable amount of time and money was spent to make this event happen/succeed. Again, IMHO, for this event, I do believe it was a wise choice to stay and not fold up the tents and vacate the premises. I would definitely suggest to reconsider any future events at this location.

MOC had a booth set up at GTC several years ago and the inbred from Hazard who apparently was in charge of the gun show wouldn't allow OC eventhough the off-duty trooper who was teaching CPL classes at the show was OK to OC with a thigh rig -- CC was OK. The point being, what good is it and what kind of a message does it send to those who are not as informed as the members of an grassroots, OC, etc, organization that are not allowed to carry, OC and/or CC?

Up till this ODR CC and OCING was see and done.... It will be up to the BOD if MGO go's back in 15...

SeeTee
03-06-2014, 05:41 PM
As usual for me I am running a little behind after a event

First of all, big thank you to all the volunteers. We had several new volunteers this year that really took to setting up, working & closing the booth, we could not have done it without you, everybody put in a extra effort to make the show a success.

The Saturday crew, set a record for all things MGO, way to go guy's !

Success, records, yes & we couldn't haven't done it without being there

At the show, we talked to more people than ever before about issues & the recent issue surrounding loaded guns at the Outdoorama, they all agreed with us!

Firearm education, answered a lot of questions and as an example we saved several CPL holders, unnecessary retaking of classes and renewal courses to get their license renewed.

In fact KiltGuy saved one lady $250 that she was ready to pay for two classes for herself & daughter to renew their CPL, she bought a MGO membership in thanks.

I did the same for a gentleman on the first day, he was very thankful, he didn't buy a membership but I wasn't wearing a kilt either! But he will remember he found the correct information at the MGO booth and will talk that up in a good way, what will he say about the people that told him he had to spend a fair amount of $$$ needlessly?

Many people from all walks of life, men, women, young and old, thanked us for being there, it is the Outdoorama, but it is also the Cottage & Lakefront living show in the same room, so it's not all a “preaching to the choir” audience as some think.

We added 30+ new members, + a few renewals for a total of 34 and 3 shift upgrades to MGO membership.

Sold a lot of merchandise, as some may or not not know, MGO merchandise is priced just a little above cost, so it is about getting our name out there more than it is about making money.

One last thing, in the last two weekends, between the efforts at the Novi Gun show (no loaded guns there either) and the Outdoorama, over 50 new paid members will be arriving along with over 250 new signed forum members, so a lot of new screen names will be showing up, not all will post in the introduction threads, so when you see them post in other areas, welcome them, continue the good will we started at the show when we met & talked with them.

A Last few pictures
http://i60.tinypic.com/2qv8lfq.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/29bes9k.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/20kp3a.jpg

XDM 40 cal
03-06-2014, 10:26 PM
:salute: To all... sorry I wasn't there, Seetee you did a great job...

SeeTee
03-07-2014, 01:18 AM
:salute: To all... sorry I wasn't there, Seetee you did a great job...

I hope you get better soon, as you know from being there many times before, it takes a crew to make it all happen, but thanks!