Muzzle up "powder shake"

[DooFighter]

I shoot an informal league at a small club and we have a new loose cannon. Shooting a revolver he cants the gun up to the ceiling between every shot and gives it a shake back and forth (50 rounds a week). I know why he's doing it but imo I don't care if it gains him 10 or 2 points, it's unsafe. If for no other reason than we don't need to patch holes in the roof, jeez. I complained to a range officer tonight and he's going to bring it up at the board meeting of the club. When we press this guy to knock it off, specifically what do you think would be the best way to explain that what he's doing is not safe. There is the potential in my mind that while he shakes the gun he could drop it. I guess that's enough. I can just tell this guy is not going to abide easily though, he's a know-it-all dip***** and the good ole boys don't always like to rock the boat.

Thanks.

[Jungle George]

Just speaking for the range rules where I shoot:

All muzzles MUST be pointed downrange at all times including packing and unpacking of the firearm. Up in the air is not downrange.

If he is using a dense powder and is trying to have more consitant velocities then he should use a filler. I use Bullseye and it only fills the case up about 25% full, never had any issues even without filler. Also if he uses wad cutters and sets them flush or near flush with the case mouth then he will be using up a bunch the empty room in the case.

Lots of ways to accomplish what he's trying to do.

[DooFighter]

Well, we had a league meeting, asked him to discontinue this practice and he didn't have a problem with it, so problem solved. He did state that he thought his shooting may suffer a bit from not doing it and I called BS (in a gentler manner than BS).

[Dabears!]

what does one gain from shaking your gun? I havent heard of this.
doesnt the gun shake plenty on its own from RECOIL lmao

glad he agreed to stop.

[plumbum]

I used shoot ppc at the matches with some of the best ppc shooters in the state. I have never seen anyone do the muzzle shake...lmao

Sounds like a new dance move for you tube

[Jungle George]

In cartridges such as 38 special there is a significant amount of headspace. This is especially true when using a powder such as Bullseye. The principal is that if you tilt the cartridge up just prior to shooting and then slowly bring it back down the powder will be physically oriented in a consistent manner relative to the primer. This in turn is supposed to generate more consistent velocities.

I personally have never noticed a difference although there are others who swear by it. I can see it making a difference in benchrest shooting but unless you are REALLY good I don't think it would matter.

[DV8r]

In cartridges such as 38 special there is a significant amount of headspace. This is especially true when using a powder such as Bullseye. The principal is that if you tilt the cartridge up just prior to shooting and then slowly bring it back down the powder will be physically oriented in a consistent manner relative to the primer. This in turn is supposed to generate more consistent velocities.

I personally have never noticed a difference although there are others who swear by it. I can see it making a difference in benchrest shooting but unless you are REALLY good I don't think it would matter.
I'm no expert on this but logic tells me that a hotter primer would be a good substitute for shaking if the point is to get all powder burned in an equal time frame.

[Jungle George]

I'm no expert on this but logic tells me that a hotter primer would be a good substitute for shaking if the point is to get all powder burned in an equal time frame.

When it comes to precision shooting another tenant is that you should use the least amount of primer that will get the job done. That is because it is believed that the opportunity for variability is greater with primers than with powders. Just a tiny amount of primer makes a huge difference whereas the powder can be controlled more effectively. In addition, having consistent pressure curves round after round is what precision shooters are going for. That curve can vary depending on where the powder is physically located in the case when it is ignited. Ideally the case mouth should release the bullet at the same point in the pressure curve.

Again, I'm simply repeating the mantra. When it comes to offhand shooting you have to be pretty good for this stuff to make much of a difference in your score. I consider myself to be better than average and I haven't found what I consider to be a statistically significant difference.

[DV8r]

When it comes to precision shooting another tenant is that you should use the least amount of primer that will get the job done. That is because it is believed that the opportunity for variability is greater with primers than with powders. Just a tiny amount of primer makes a huge difference whereas the powder can be controlled more effectively. In addition, having consistent pressure curves round after round is what precision shooters are going for. That curve can vary depending on where the powder is physically located in the case when it is ignited. Ideally the case mouth should release the bullet at the same point in the pressure curve.

Again, I'm simply repeating the mantra. When it comes to offhand shooting you have to be pretty good for this stuff to make much of a difference in your score. I consider myself to be better than average and I haven't found what I consider to be a statistically significant difference.Interesting, but I have discovered that what one "believes" and what can be proven is often three different things. :)

Logic tells me that IF I can ignite every grain of powder at a nearly identical time AND I have the same amount of powder and the bullet release force is equal then the pressure should be the same, varying only by the difference of the load in the primer.

[sca037]

I'm new to revolvers (been shooting semiautos indoors since 1986), and have observed after depleting what is in the cylinder.....folks tipping the barrel straight up when releasing the spent shells onto the table.

Is this technique also a concern?

Thanks,
Brian

[Jungle George]

Interesting, but I have discovered that what one "believes" and what can be proven is often three different things. :)

Logic tells me that IF I can ignite every grain of powder at a nearly identical time AND I have the same amount of powder and the bullet release force is equal then the pressure should be the same, varying only by the difference of the load in the primer.

The problem occurs when the primer is hot enough to unseat the bullet prior to getting the powder properly ignited. There is a surprising amount of power in a primer. For example I shoot glue stick bullets in 45 ACP. Using just a primer I get 450 fps. The Aquilla super colibri 22 LR bullets get 500 fps with only a primer. It's all a matter of timing and balance.

[Walther]

Again, I'm simply repeating the mantra. When it comes to offhand shooting you have to be pretty good for this stuff to make much of a difference in your score.

Let me help: When it comes to offhand shooting, you'd have to be nearly perfect for it to make a difference.

In truth, I don't know a single person who is capable of shooting as well as their gun. The human factor is going to contritube WAY more to someone's score than shaking their gun back and forth. What a bunch of hooey.

[TacticalSolution]

I've tried it with 45 Colt using small volume powder, and all my stuff fires the same without doing it through the crony. Tipping the gun up to set the powder is old school backyard ******** using old school components.

[partdeux]

Without having any knowledge of how the controlled explosion really works, I could be talked into uneven forces being applied to the bullet base with it wanting to start wobbling. I'd imagine it would not take very long for it to stabilize in the barrel. Some reloaders absolutely swear by concave bullet bases for higher accuracy. I know my ability to shoot is far far less then the bullet or guns capabilities :)

[cwo4uscgret]

I have been shooting for 50+ years and have never, ever seen anyone do this...

[jmoser]

I used to load real light 148 WC loads with WW231; got a lot of unburned powder flakes jamming under the star extractor during ejection and then binding the cylinder after reloading.
Switched to WST and have never had an issue again. [All with Federal small pistol std primers.]
I load down to 1.6 gr for short line loads; no need to monkey with fillers or shaking; all my loads are 'X ring' capable.
Its all in the load development - never should be a need to mechanically manipluate the gun/cartridge for good ignition.

[langenc]

In 22 benchrest shooting there is, at times, a movement to place the firing pin at 6 oclock instead of 12. Theory is the it will then start the primer closer to the powder which will be on the bottom of the round.

If tried to piont the bullet up, before loading each round to do somewhat the same thing. Any difference?? I cant say.

[crankythunder]

In our winter indoor bullseye league, all the range officers watch for the guy pointing the gun to the ceiling and ask them to refrain. Most of the ranges have signs that say " As of March 1, 2014, we have 7 holes in the ceiling. Please do not put the eighth one in."

Its tuff cause back in the prehistoric caveman times, when we had to club our terridyactle before collecting it for dinner, we raised our club over our head and brought it down to the target. Today, its in our DNA to point our weapon at the sky and bring it down to the target which does not work when shooting firearms at indoor ranges.

Its a difficult habit to get out of. Most shooters I have talked with understand and make a conscious effort to keep their muzzle down range during matches.

Regards,
Cranky