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View Full Version : This will likely be the most asked question in the new optics forum.



detroitbassist
03-17-2014, 03:56 PM
And I'll be the first to ask it...

Having sunk nearly all my loose cash into my first ever AR15 build, I'm left with little to put toward optics. I've already decided to learn the rifle with iron sights first, which I am. But when the time comes in a couple months the question is:

What do you think is the red dot that will give me the most bang for the buck ($200 or less)?

I'd like to add magnification that flips out when not in use, but it needn't be part of the original purchase.

Batman
03-17-2014, 04:13 PM
Why a red dot? What is the intended use of the gun? Also, how old are you and how good are your eyes?

happy_gunner
03-17-2014, 04:18 PM
Wow, that a the question.

I guess part of the answer is another question...how do you use the rifle? The reason for the question is this: if this is a range rifle that is gently used at the range, gets transported in a padded case, and then sits in the gun safe at home, then you may be able to get away with something like a SightMark since it won't be bounced around. However, if this is a competition AR, training AR, or otherwise somewhat used and abused AR then the sub $200 red dot optics might not hold up very long simple because of their price point.

You might be better off saving up a bit more and looking for a used quality red dot like a vortex or older models red dots, such as an EoTech 512, that will give you both the price you need as well as the durability.

Dsully
03-17-2014, 04:19 PM
I have to say it... Save your money up for quality. You may get by with a less expensive red dot for awhile but you'll end up buying again and wishing you just bought an aimpoint in the first place. A buddy of mine just went though the same thing. He didn't listen to me and bought something cheaper. After, countless times of going to the range to find out the battery died, he forked up the money and bought an aimpoint. Look around because there's good deals for used aimpoints if you are patient.

intheburbs
03-17-2014, 04:20 PM
The general rule of thumb is spend more on glass than the rifle.

That being said, Vortex gives you pretty good bang for the buck.

Pyzik
03-17-2014, 04:22 PM
I'll also echo that it's generally better to save a little more and get the better product.
Now that I've said that, I'll also say I'm a hypocrite in this situation as I saved up money for a better AR and was left with very little to spend on an optic (and I wanted one sooner than later).
The plan is to get a nicer one down the road.

Here is a great comparison of the most popular red dots under $200

“Budget” Red Dot Sight Comparison – Part 1 (http://www.thebangswitch.com/budget-red-dot-sight-comparison-part-1/)
“Budget” Red Dot Sight Comparison – Part 2 (http://www.thebangswitch.com/budget-red-dot-sight-comparison-part-2/)

I personally went with the Primary Arms Micro for the time being and have found it to be a good bargain.
Battery life is only like 1000 hours but the batteries are cheap.
The lens and the dot itself are clear and crisp, though there is a very light green tinge when looking through the optic (it's very light).

detroitbassist
03-17-2014, 04:31 PM
Why a red dot? What is the intended use of the gun? Also, how old are you and how good are your eyes?

I'm thinking red dot for the quick acquisition everyone talks about, which I experienced when I tried another shooters gun which had a red dot installed.
Intended use will likely be limited to sub 100 yard ranges, mostly plinking. Possibly small-medium sized game animals once I'm more at home with the platform.
I'm turning 43 in a couple weeks, and the eyes which were always clear & quick to focus at any range are starting to peer through reading glasses inside of a foot or so... but no astigmatism, if that's what you were getting at.

I had originally been thinking about a traditional scope (3-9x40), but a different rifle fills that role, and I'd like to get to know the red dot style optic on the platform they seem so well paired with.

chosos
03-17-2014, 11:11 PM
And I'll be the first to ask it...

Having sunk nearly all my loose cash into my first ever AR15 build, I'm left with little to put toward optics. I've already decided to learn the rifle with iron sights first, which I am. But when the time comes in a couple months the question is:

What do you think is the red dot that will give me the most bang for the buck ($200 or less)?

I'd like to add magnification that flips out when not in use, but it needn't be part of the original purchase.

For starters... I find flip out magnification to be bulky. I had a really nice swiss glass (dm optics) in a samson flip to side mount, and i never used it. It was extra bulk, and dont forget... It Also makes your dot even larger, so it makes pinpoint accuracy hard

The vortex red dots come with screw on magnifiers, but they also kill your field of view. It is a neat add on, but they are almost worthless, because you end up only being able to see out of like 30% of the optic.

If you must have a magnifier, see if you can find a used larue po boy magnifiers on ebay or something. It is actually a hensoldt/zeiss tank magnifier, but the glass is great and just get a qd or screw on mount for it. A flip to side is wasted $ if you're on a budget.

The Primary arms micro dot will do exactly what you need, for less than your price point. Get the qd 1/3 co witness riser for it, and you're good to go until you decide to upgrade to premium glass, if you even want to.

For the price, nothing else comes close to the package that you get from primary arms (~$120 shipped with qd 1/3 co-wittness mount)

Here is what ive owned... And have time looking down the range with.
Sightmark red dot 4 color reflex
Sight mark red dot aimpoint comp clone
Primary arms red dot (comp clone)
Primary arms micro dot
Vortex strikefire
Vortex sparc
Burris fast fire ii
Eotech 512
Docter red dot
Aimpoint micro
Trijicon srs
I know i'm forgetting a couple...

When i started out, i was on a tight budget, too. I went through most of the popular "budget" red dot optics. The vortex isnt bad, but i sold all of mine. It just wasn't worth spending nearly double the price. Plus, i broke a strikefire, so now i'm biased, but vortex support was awesome.

With the extra $ you'd spend on the vortex, i think you're better off getting the primary arms and saving the extra cash for an aimpoint (but only if you *need* it for the long battery life or you plan on taking your rifle off to war with you). The primary arm micro dot will also hold damn near 100% resale value, so you wont take a loss if/when you decide to upgrade.

The primary arms red dot 30mm scope is cheap, but all of those aimpoint comp type red dots add a lot of extra beef to your ar. It blocks your vision, and adds weight. Its personal preference, but i tend to favor aimpoint micro's.

http://www.primaryarms.com/Primary-Arms-Micro-Dot-With-Removable-Base-p/md-06.htm

For $29 the qd mount is worth it.

As sully said... With cheap optics, battery life sucks - so carry extras.

tyler79durdan
03-18-2014, 06:41 AM
I ran Eotech + 45 degree offset iron sights. I could use the irons for CQB. I was amazed at how accurate the 45's were. I could throw empty boxs(50) of .22 ammo out a few yards and stack holes in the box(after rolling a few feet of course :) ) EoTech 512 is a little large for my taste now but what a great setup. The 45 degree roll takes some practice to get right, but once its memorized, you wont have any issues using them tactically. No regrets.

I also switched my EoTech out for a while with a cheap BSA tactical scope(because of battery replacement costs). The scope gave me fairly good results. Either way... I have to advocate 45's in conjunction with any glass you add.

Dsully
03-18-2014, 07:00 AM
I've been wanting to try those

TomE
03-18-2014, 07:21 AM
My next budget red dot I'm trying is the Gen I Vortex SPARC for $124 shipped.
I've tried and sold off a Firefield,a Sightmark and a Strikefire.I didn't use any of them long enough to really test them,I just didn't like them.

Imshootin
03-18-2014, 07:31 AM
Buy once, cry once. The Aimpoint Pro has been available for under $400 quite a bit lately. Get a quality optic. You won't regret it in the long run.

chosos
03-18-2014, 07:55 AM
Buy once, cry once. The Aimpoint Pro has been available for under $400 quite a bit lately. Get a quality optic. You won't regret it in the long run.

If he has a $400 budget, the Aimpoint Pro is a solid buy.

I also have a set of 45 offsets on one of my setups - its really slick once you get used to it. I still prefer co-witnessing with my red dots if I have a choice, though. For anything that isn't a red dot, 45 offsets are a really nice alternative.



My next budget red dot I'm trying is the Gen I Vortex SPARC for $124 shipped.
I've tried and sold off a Firefield,a Sightmark and a Strikefire.I didn't use any of them long enough to really test them,I just didn't like them.

Where are you getting the sparc for $129 shipped?

detroitbassist
03-18-2014, 12:37 PM
Thanks for all the great advice so far, especially the links from pyzik, the critical thinking about flip magnification from chosos, & 45 degree irons point from tyler79durdan. @Dsully, difference in quality at the higher price point isn't lost on me, but with not much of anything coming in right now, $200-300 more is huge to me. The idea is to have a medium-term solution which, while it may be supplanted by a high-end optic in the future, is sufficiently usable to retain as a worthy backup.

The Primary Arms micro is looking really good for the price, and I'm also open to used optics as a method for increasing the quality available in my price range. The 45 degree irons aren't so much an option on this build unless I change pricey things on the upper (which would cut into the optic budget), however I will be trying them on the flat top build that's next (well down the road).

I have to admit, now that chosos got me thinking about it, that my desire for magnification is a holdover from my experience on the traditional style rifles. I still remember the experience of shooting through my dad's scope for the first time after being used to leaf sights. It was, even as a kid, a huge eye opener as to how precision shooting wasn't magic, but it sure felt like it once I had a scope mounted & sighted in on that .22 (god I wish I still had that 1st gun).

After real thought on the subject, I do think that I will use the magnification often enough to warrant having it. If eye relief is such that it could be mounted after the red dot (especially one with a smaller footprint), wouldn't that fix the problem of multiplying the dot size? Also, with a multi-reticle optic, would the + reticle be finer than the dot? I realize that none of them will give me crosshairs, but is it noticeably closer to that?

chosos
03-18-2014, 01:13 PM
if you are set on some type of magnifier as you will use it enough to justify it - have you considered another option. A 1x-4x scope? Not as fast for close quarters as a true red dot, but more user friendly (for me anyhow) than a flip to side magnifier.

http://www.primaryarms.com/Primary-Arms-1-4X-24-Illuminated-Scope-PA14X-p/pa14x.htm

Pyzik
03-18-2014, 01:26 PM
if you are set on some type of magnifier as you will use it enough to justify it - have you considered another option. A 1x-4x scope? Not as fast for close quarters as a true red dot, but more user friendly (for me anyhow) than a flip to side magnifier.

http://www.primaryarms.com/Primary-Arms-1-4X-24-Illuminated-Scope-PA14X-p/pa14x.htm

Beat me to it.

fr3db3ar
03-18-2014, 03:37 PM
I ran Eotech + 45 degree offset iron sights. I could use the irons for CQB. I was amazed at how accurate the 45's were. I could throw empty boxs(50) of .22 ammo out a few yards and stack holes in the box(after rolling a few feet of course :) ) EoTech 512 is a little large for my taste now but what a great setup. The 45 degree roll takes some practice to get right, but once its memorized, you wont have any issues using them tactically. No regrets.

I also switched my EoTech out for a while with a cheap BSA tactical scope(because of battery replacement costs). The scope gave me fairly good results. Either way... I have to advocate 45's in conjunction with any glass you add.

I have some but haven't figured them out yet. Do you run yours right or left?

Shyster
03-18-2014, 04:15 PM
For your price point Vortex is absolutely perfect.

detroitbassist
03-18-2014, 05:06 PM
Which Vortex do you recommend?

Also, is there such a thing as a magnifier with long enough eye relief to be placed after the red dot or is 2 inches or so pretty much the limit?

Thanks all, by the way, for patience with regard to red dot noob questions. I'm not experienced with them yet, and the fact that nobody is speaking to me like an idiot is one of the reasons I appreciate this community so much. Hooray MGO!

Dsully
03-18-2014, 05:12 PM
There are some decent people left in this world :)

Pyzik
03-18-2014, 05:15 PM
I have some but haven't figured them out yet. Do you run yours right or left?

I'd imagine if shooting right handed, placing them to the right would be most ergonomic.

It's tapatalk's fault.

Deadmeat3344
03-18-2014, 05:48 PM
Vortex sparc. Either gen 1 or 2. Gen 2 takes a more common battery (2032 vs the thicker one the gen 1 has) and better controls. Nothing wrong with the gen 1. It will be significantly cheaper than the gen 2.

tyler79durdan
03-18-2014, 10:13 PM
I have some but haven't figured them out yet. Do you run yours right or left?

Im right handed and shoot right strong. The sights are set up;rear sight as close to the rear of the rail as possible(generally under a scope riser or mount), while the front is as far forward as possible near the muzzle(like a free float with top rail). The actual technique is elbow tight while on center line optics, then 45 whole arm/gun combo to actuate 45's BUIS. It becomes very quick and natural after about 50 tries(much less hundreds). Good Luck. They are fun.

fr3db3ar
03-19-2014, 07:59 AM
Im right handed and shoot right strong. The sights are set up;rear sight as close to the rear of the rail as possible(generally under a scope riser or mount), while the front is as far forward as possible near the muzzle(like a free float with top rail). The actual technique is elbow tight while on center line optics, then 45 whole arm/gun combo to actuate 45's BUIS. It becomes very quick and natural after about 50 tries(much less hundreds). Good Luck. They are fun.
I'm still confused, do you have yours on the left side of the gun or on the right?

chosos
03-19-2014, 10:02 AM
I'm still confused, do you have yours on the left side of the gun or on the right?

Can't speak for him, but I shoot right and have mine on the right side.

I'm left handed, but shoot right handed, and have right eye dominance.

Pyzik
03-19-2014, 03:29 PM
Don't know if you've made your decision yet, but this might help.

Pretty darn good deal and right along the lines of what you're looking for.

http://www.primaryarms.com/Vortex-StrikeFire-Bright-Red-Dot-PA-Magnifier-Bund-p/sf-rd-ar15-bundle.htm

Vortex StrikeFire Red/Green Dot w/cantilever mount & Primary Arms 3x Magnifier w/mount for $136+shipping.

chosos
03-19-2014, 04:14 PM
Don't know if you've made your decision yet, but this might help.

Pretty darn good deal and right along the lines of what you're looking for.

http://www.primaryarms.com/Vortex-StrikeFire-Bright-Red-Dot-PA-Magnifier-Bund-p/sf-rd-ar15-bundle.htm

Vortex StrikeFire Red/Green Dot w/cantilever mount & Primary Arms 3x Magnifier w/mount for $136+shipping.


wow, that is a really solid deal, especially since it comes with the mounts for both.

detroitbassist
03-19-2014, 04:56 PM
@pyzik: that seems great, hope the sale is still on when I'm ready to buy. In the meanwhile, I'm sure that others in a similar position will avail themselves of the bargain (just leave a set for me lol).

I'll check further into the Vortex setup along with several others during this pre-cash period of "research obsession" (a condition which should be treated with google & a credit card).

bolonytony24
03-19-2014, 08:27 PM
And I'll be the first to ask it...

Having sunk nearly all my loose cash into my first ever AR15 build, I'm left with little to put toward optics. I've already decided to learn the rifle with iron sights first, which I am. But when the time comes in a couple months the question is:

What do you think is the red dot that will give me the most bang for the buck ($200 or less)?

I'd like to add magnification that flips out when not in use, but it needn't be part of the original purchase.

id recommend the vortex strikefire. nice glass for the price. check PSA and some other online dealers for one that goes on sale.

chosos
03-20-2014, 06:12 AM
@pyzik: that seems great, hope the sale is still on when I'm ready to buy. In the meanwhile, I'm sure that others in a similar position will avail themselves of the bargain (just leave a set for me lol).

I'll check further into the Vortex setup along with several others during this pre-cash period of "research obsession" (a condition which should be treated with google & a credit card).
The combo posted is a *great bargain*, but with that said, it has the red/green strikefire. That model wasnt as desireable as the red only version because the dot wasnt as bright, hence the price.

Still a good deal. Ive owned that exact version and found the dot to be bright enough for my needs.

Pyzik
03-26-2014, 03:36 PM
Matt just posted an update to the Budget Red Dot comparison. Thought I would just toss it here as an update.

The Bangswitch - Budget Red Dot Update (http://www.thebangswitch.com/budget-red-dot-update/)

westcliffe01
03-26-2014, 06:54 PM
I put a red dot on my SKS bullpup and I got the absolute cheapest Bushnell TRS-25 ($99) and using it, I was hitting a 12x12 steel plate at 160 yards time after time. For me with my eyesight, that is a VERY long way for a 1x optic. But given the location (forward of the ejection port) as well as the fact that steel shells eject upwards and forward (not out the side of the action) a 1-4 scope was out of the question. I would certainly have preferred something with a little magnification.

This is not mine (have not taken any pics of it) but same general concept except I stuck with a smaller capacity mag and loading with stripper clips.
http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz168/LKermit/DSCF0028.jpg

detroitbassist
03-28-2014, 12:01 AM
@pyzik, thanks for the link! I'm going to be back in MI and making my decision in a few weeks, so more info is good info!

@westcliffe1, at the risk of derailing my own thread, that is the only wooden bullpup stock I've ever seen & it looks awesome! I know you said that it's not yours, but do you know who made it?

EricF517
04-02-2014, 07:21 AM
And I'll be the first to ask it...

Having sunk nearly all my loose cash into my first ever AR15 build, I'm left with little to put toward optics. I've already decided to learn the rifle with iron sights first, which I am. But when the time comes in a couple months the question is:

What do you think is the red dot that will give me the most bang for the buck ($200 or less)?

I'd like to add magnification that flips out when not in use, but it needn't be part of the original purchase.

I have a very simple answer to the question. BUY ONCE, CRY ONCE

chosos
04-02-2014, 02:03 PM
I have a very simple answer to the question. BUY ONCE, CRY ONCE

That is in no way an answer to his original question.

"What do you think is the red dot that will give me the most bang for the buck ($200 or less)?"

Also, cheap mounts can fail on expensive scopes, so even scope price isn't the deciding factor.

FreePatriot
05-03-2014, 03:24 AM
I klxactly where you are coming from and its hard to find answers on forums many times. It seems like if you aren't spending more on glass than your gun you are shunned. I've had good luck with some of the cheaper brands, but always at least went with brands that had a name. I've used a sightmark and a UTG and both have over 1,000 roundswith them on top of rifles and haven't steered me wrong. After a lot of research though it seems like primary arms is the way to go. One step up would be Vortex. Good luck with your search for the right one.

EricF517
05-10-2014, 02:08 PM
That is in no way an answer to his original question.

"What do you think is the red dot that will give me the most bang for the buck ($200 or less)?"

Also, cheap mounts can fail on expensive scopes, so even scope price isn't the deciding factor.

Exactly! So as I stated before, BUY ONCE CRY ONCE!!!