Just purchased an optics ready Bushmaster - what do you think of the ACOG or the Aimpoint?

[willforu1]

I swore if the price of the AR rifles drop I would pick up another. I found a sale at Dunhams for an optics ready Bushmaster M4 for $799 with a $50 rebate from Bushmaster and a $50 Dunhams gift card. Not bad…now I need optics.

I would like to put good optics on this one. I am thinking of the Trijicon ACOG M4 or the Aimpoint Comp M4 M68. I am trying to justify one of these high price optics. Can someone give me some data or information on why I might chose one of thee over a more moderate priced optics by EO Tech or Vortex?

I would shoot paper targets out to 300 yards (this is the extent of our range) but I would mostly be shooting 100 yards. I would like to try some 3-gun. I have been threatening to coyote hunt. I also like to own some of the very best equipment – especially equipment used by our armed forces.

Any recommendations? Will one optic be able to do it all? Any suggestions? What are the pros and cons of these two scopes? Which is most versatile?

[MJssr]

if you plan on shooting 3-gun, the aim point would work better IMO than the ACOG. Though most 3gun shooters run a variable optic, usually a 1-4x or 1-6x. they will keep it on 1x and run it like a red dot for close targets and they will dial up the magnification for longer shots. In the Vortex line, the Viper PST 1-4x24 or the Razor HD 1-6x24 would be the best compromise. The markey for these style scopes is exploding and pretty much everyone is making their own version. You can spend as little as a couple hundred or 1500+

[willforu1]

Thanks for the comments. I have heard good things about Vortex. What do you get for the high dollar optics such as the Aim Point that you don't get with the Vortex?

[elwarpo]

The higher end scopes will generally have better optics, brighter and sharper red dots and better (more shock proof...) components. You will also see lifetime warranties with the better ones, however even Vortex is offering a lifetime warranty now. At close range you will not seem much of difference, but at longer range or extreme light conditions, you will see the difference. I went from cheap (BSA) red dots to Eotechs and Aimpoints and quickly saw whhy you pay more for them. I have no experience with Vortex so can not comment.

[MI-1911]

I would shoot paper targets out to 300 yards (this is the extent of our range) but I would mostly be shooting 100 yards. I would like to try some 3-gun. I have been threatening to coyote hunt. I also like to own some of the very best equipment – especially equipment used by our armed forces.

For 300 yard target shooting, or coyote hunting, you will not be happy with any of the red-dot sights. Invest in a good scope, such as the Leupold VX-R Patrol.

Leupold VX-R Patrol
http://www.leupold.com/tactical/scopes/vx-r-patrol/

[TomE]

I'll let you know on the Vortex in about an hour,after it arrives and is mounted

My 2-7 x 32 crossfire has decent glass,not so great eye relief,nice BDC reticle.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1032420-REG/vortex_cf2_31037_crossfire_ii_1_4x24_riflescope.ht ml

The Viper has much better glass though

[willforu1]

thanks all

Does anyone have any experience with the Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T 1-3x14mm?

Yes, I am torn if I want a 1X6 or at least 1X4 and keep it on 1 for 3gun and be able to dial up for Coyotes.

So versatility is probably key now that I think about it. I know I have seen Tactical M4's loaded up with all kinds of accessories and they weigh a ton. I think I may want to avoid that.

The Leupold is intriguing to me. And I am always intrigued by the Aim Points and the ACOGs just because our military finds them so useful.

[MI-1911]

Vortex Crossfire II 2-7x32 Dead Hold BDC Reticle PEPR Bundle
http://www.primaryarms.com/Vortex-Crossfire-II-Crossfire-II-2-7x32-Dead-Hold-p/cf2-31003pepr.htm?utm_source=bronto&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Vortrex+Crossfire+II+2-7x32+with+Burris+P.E.P.R.+mount&utm_content=Memorial+Day+Savings+at+Primary+Arms&utm_campaign=Memorial+Day+Sale+2014

[Jim1855]

I'll try to help.

Right now my favorite general purpose glass is the Vortex PST 1-4x24. Running this on a AR. Punches plates to 400 easy and a very wide field of view. 4" or so eye relief and very good glass.

For red dots I like the Aimpoint H or T-1, the new PRO and the older M or M2. These are great, functional and very reliable. The field of view is rather narrow though and 2MOA dots are not really geared to high precision. Generally very fast on target.

I have had a 4x Trijicon, the early ACOG, great glass, great scope but the magnification restricted the field of view. Have also had an Elcan, wonderful optic but a clunky mount. The Leupold Mk4 CQ/T is a nice piece, fairly big, too many rails, great glass, good illumination but small optics and a narrow field of view, nice to use though, sold that one too after it broke and Leupold replaced it.

The image through the scopes is better than the Aimpoints, not really sure why, perception possibly as there are fewer glass elements in the Aimpoints. The scopes seem to gather more light as well.

Field of view. At the same distance the FOV through the 1-4 Vortex at 1x is about 11 feet, at the same distance the Aimpoints have about 3-4 fee FOV. I like the scopes but they are bigger, longer and heavier.

Vortex, I really like this product line and have a bunch of them. Could have bought most of the other brands and selected Vortex.

Jim

[willforu1]

I have heard too many things about the Vortex. I have to go and look at them.

Also, I have a Leupold VX-AR 1-4 on my .450 Mariln for bear hunting. This is a nice scope. I want an illuminated combat reticle but this type is not out fo the question.

I will check out the Vortex

[intheburbs]

These are my two KD rifles:
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s146/variseal/KDrifles_zps6667c2dc.jpg

Top is a 20" AR frankengun with a TA11 ACOG. Bottom is a Ruger SR762 with a Vortex Viper PST1-4X24 that I just bought at the NRA convention. I have about 300 rounds behind each scope.

My observations:

The ACOG has a less cluttered reticle/simpler reticle. It's designed to be zeroed and then left alone. KISS principle.
The Vortex has a more "involved" reticle. It also has adjustment knobs you can zero, so you can dial in some wind dope or elevation, but easily return to zero.
The Vortex has a battery-powered illuminated reticle, the ACOG has tritium for low light and the fiber optic for daylight. Vortex wins in low light, the ACOG wins in daylight.
Both scopes have good glass and present a clear, crisp sight picture. If I had to choose, I'd give a very slight edge to the ACOG.
Both scopes make it pretty easy to make hits out to 400 yards (the farthest I've shot with either). Both seem rock solid and capable of taking abuse.
Price? The Vortex is about half the ACOG, based on "street price," not MSRP.

Conclusion: Both are good scopes. Viper might be a better value. The ACOG is battle-proven and has a pretty impressive track record.

[chosos]

I think one of the most important questions is - realistically - what is your budget?

Eotech, Vortex, Trijicon, and Aimpoint all have items in competing price ranges, so are there specific features you are after? You mentioned 3 gun, so that would makes me want to say buy a 1-4x, 1-6x, 1-8x, or 2-10x or anything in between. Variable 1x scopes also increase your weight and price.

Also, when you go with a higher end variable power scope, you're going to be looking at higher end 30mm scope mounts ($100-$300), so factor that in, as well. You can get away with a non-qd mount and save some $ if you don't need to remove the scope.

If you get really into 3 gun, your $799 ORC will likely transform into a $2500 custom built rifle in a few years. lol. I look at the ORC as a solid rifle, but it is still pretty entry level. If you don't plan on abusing the hell out of it, I'd say grab a Primary Arms 1-4x or 1-6x and see how you like that type of scope. They hold value well, and at ~$130-$200, you won't be out much if you decide to grab a red dot, instead.

The Aimpoint Pro is awesome for the price.
You already have a $50 Dunhams gift card, so you could print a 30% off coupon and buy a cheap Eotech from dunhams.
Primary Arms has great budget 1-4x and 1-6x optics

If you really want quality, just get a Swarovski Z6i and call it a day.

If your cash was my $, I would buy a decent budget optic (Primary Arms or an Aimpoint Pro/Eotech) and buy a nice trigger kit.

[willforu1]

If your cash was my $, I would buy a decent budget optic (Primary Arms or an Aimpoint Pro/Eotech) and buy a nice trigger kit.

Ok, I have been out shopping and I have a few ideas.

The Burris Skultac is one option. For 629$ (I also have over 200$ in gift certs and points) I can have a 1-4X with an illuminated reticle, a 100$ mount, and a fastfire holographic red dot....the best of both worlds. However the reticle on the scope seems a little too big.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Optics/Tactical-Optics%7C/pc/104792580/c/104752080/sc/104623380/Burris-Skull-TAC-Riflescope/1607991.uts?destination=%2Fcategory%2FTactical-Optics%2F104623380.uts&WTz_l=DirectLoad%3Bcat104623380

My other thought was to buy the Leupold 1.5-4X with a firedot reticle for 449$ and buy the same mount and add a similar quick target acquisition sight for 150-250$ later. I think like the reticle much better on the Leupold firedot. I also think the Leupold is a superior brand scope. I already own a 1.5-4 AR without the firedot.
http://www.cabelas.com/custserv/custserv_popup.jsp?pageName=ReticleLeupoldGreenFir edot2

I just thought the Burris Skultac was a good way to get into a really different kind of scope and mount than I am used to.

anyone have experience with either of these?

I would like to start shooting for 600$. Any opinions?

[TomE]

Vortex Crossfire II 2-7x32 Dead Hold BDC Reticle PEPR Bundle
http://www.primaryarms.com/Vortex-Crossfire-II-Crossfire-II-2-7x32-Dead-Hold-p/cf2-31003pepr.htm?utm_source=bronto&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Vortrex+Crossfire+II+2-7x32+with+Burris+P.E.P.R.+mount&utm_content=Memorial+Day+Savings+at+Primary+Arms&utm_campaign=Memorial+Day+Sale+2014
After a couple weeks with the Crossfire II and I'm looking for something better. I have to hold my head at just the right angle to get the target in focus. It's aggravating even for a bench rifle. For hunting it would mean lost game,for defense it could mean loss of the users life with the extra time it takes to get the eye relief just right to see what the heck you are wanting to aim at.

[MI-1911]

After a couple weeks with the Crossfire II and I'm looking for something better. I have to hold my head at just the right angle to get the target in focus. It's aggravating even for a bench rifle. For hunting it would mean lost game,for defense it could mean loss of the users life with the extra time it takes to get the eye relief just right to see what the heck you are wanting to aim at.

Have you tried adjusting the eye relief? If you're not familiar with scopes, eye relief is the distance between your eye, and the scope. Usually you have enough space in your mounts to move the scope further away, or closer to your eye. Then on a flat top AR, you can move the mount itself.

Scope Basics Eye Relief
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUudK3qJdTQ

[TomE]

Have you tried adjusting the eye relief? If you're not familiar with scopes, eye relief is the distance between your eye, and the scope. Usually you have enough space in your mounts to move the scope further away, or closer to your eye. Then on a flat top AR, you can move the mount itself.

Scope Basics Eye Relief
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUudK3qJdTQ
I'm aware of what eye relief is. I found out in 1973 with a Winchester Model 70 in 30/06

[MI-1911]

I'm aware of what eye relief is. I found out in 1973 with a Winchester Model 70 in 30/06

DOH! :freak:

[chosos]

Ok, I have been out shopping and I have a few ideas.

The Burris Skultac is one option. For 629$ (I also have over 200$ in gift certs and points) I can have a 1-4X with an illuminated reticle, a 100$ mount, and a fastfire holographic red dot....the best of both worlds. However the reticle on the scope seems a little too big.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shooting/Optics/Tactical-Optics%7C/pc/104792580/c/104752080/sc/104623380/Burris-Skull-TAC-Riflescope/1607991.uts?destination=%2Fcategory%2FTactical-Optics%2F104623380.uts&WTz_l=DirectLoad%3Bcat104623380

My other thought was to buy the Leupold 1.5-4X with a firedot reticle for 449$ and buy the same mount and add a similar quick target acquisition sight for 150-250$ later. I think like the reticle much better on the Leupold firedot. I also think the Leupold is a superior brand scope. I already own a 1.5-4 AR without the firedot.
http://www.cabelas.com/custserv/custserv_popup.jsp?pageName=ReticleLeupoldGreenFir edot2

I just thought the Burris Skultac was a good way to get into a really different kind of scope and mount than I am used to.

anyone have experience with either of these?

I would like to start shooting for 600$. Any opinions?

I own a burris lrs, which actually came with a pepr mount and the fastfire II. Realistically, you won't use the fastfire, since the scope is 1-4x, so it ends up being dead weight. I actually pulled mine off and ended up using it on another rifle.

I *really* like the burris cq ballistic donut reticle. It is easy to use, and i pick it up instantly. Sort of like my eotechs. I also like that if the batteries die, i still have a non-illuminated reticle.

You should be able to get an lrs and a pepr mount for a whole lot less than $600+. I wouldn't start tossing super high dollar optics on your rifle, util you also start upgrading the rifle. For example, i think you would get more happiness from a burris lrs + geissele trigger than you would from just a burris skulltac. You could also free float your barrel.

I do like the burris ballistic cq donut reticle a whole lot more than the primary arms reticles. If they had the same or similar reticles, i'd say go for the primary arms every time.

One of the coolest reticles i shot through was the ffp swfa ss-hd 1-6x and at 1x the reticle is a donut, and at 6x it becomes a criosshair. If the eyebox worked better for my eyes and it wasn't so damn heavy, i never would have sold it, ever. I now shoot a trijicon tr-24. I actually have 2 of them on rifles - one is in an adm mount and the other in a larue. I still keep a burris lrs on a different rifle, because i've never had an issue with it. It sits in a pepr mount.

If you're on a budget, swfa also makes a ssalt mount with is identical to the pepr mountand is a few bucks cheaper.

What is your realistic budget? Do you want just optics, or are you looking to upgrade the rifle, too? I think if we know a budget and primary purpose of use, we can better help you.

[willforu1]

I own a burris lrs, which actually came with a pepr mount and the fastfire II. Realistically, you won't use the fastfire, since the scope is 1-4x, so it ends up being dead weight. I actually pulled mine off and ended up using it on another rifle.

I *really* like the burris cq ballistic donut reticle. It is easy to use, and i pick it up instantly. Sort of like my eotechs. I also like that if the batteries die, i still have a non-illuminated reticle.


I do like the burris ballistic cq donut reticle a whole lot more than the primary arms reticles. If they had the same or similar reticles, i'd say go for the primary arms every time.

One of the coolest reticles i shot through was the ffp swfa ss-hd 1-6x and at 1x the reticle is a donut, and at 6x it becomes a criosshair. If the eyebox worked better for my eyes and it wasn't so damn heavy, i never would have sold it, ever. I now shoot a trijicon tr-24. I actually have 2 of them on rifles - one is in an adm mount and the other in a larue. I still keep a burris lrs on a different rifle, because i've never had an issue with it. It sits in a pepr mount.

If you're on a budget, swfa also makes a ssalt mount with is identical to the pepr mountand is a few bucks cheaper.

What is your realistic budget? Do you want just optics, or are you looking to upgrade the rifle, too? I think if we know a budget and primary purpose of use, we can better help you.


This is extremely helpful. Your saying that if I get the Skultac with both the red dot and the 1x4 scope I may find myself using only the scope. So instead I ought to conserve the money and purchase just the scope and do a trigger job and float the BBL with what is leftover.

I am partial to the Leupold. What do you think of this reticle for quick target acquisition of their firdot 1.25X4:
http://www.cabelas.com/custserv/custserv_popup.jsp?pageName=ReticleLeupoldGreenFir edot2

Do you think this is good as the Burris CQ ballistic donut?
http://images2.opticsplanet.com/365-240-ffffff/opplanet-burris-ballistic-cq556-reticle.jpg

[chosos]

This is extremely helpful. Your saying that if I get the Skultac with both the red dot and the 1x4 scope I may find myself using only the scope. So instead I ought to conserve the money and purchase just the scope and do a trigger job and float the BBL with what is leftover.

I am partial to the Leupold. What do you think of this reticle for quick target acquisition of their firdot 1.25X4:
http://www.cabelas.com/custserv/custserv_popup.jsp?pageName=ReticleLeupoldGreenFir edot2

Do you think this is good as the Burris CQ ballistic donut?
http://images2.opticsplanet.com/365-240-ffffff/opplanet-burris-ballistic-cq556-reticle.jpg
I don't have any time behind the leupold, so i'm not sure. For quick target shooting, i bet the burris cq donut would be faster because the leupold is still just a crosshair.

I think the skulltac is a waste of $ because i don't think you'd use the red dot very much, but that is based off my own experience.

[willforu1]

I found this review of the Leupold 1.5X4 with the Firedot. If having a scope and a fastfire is a waste I think I may go with the Leupold. I have just had so much luck with Leupold for hunting due to eye relief I am leaning to this 450$ plus mount option.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/02/foghorn/gear-review-leupold-mark-ar-mod-1-1-5-4x20mm-spr/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt6V-vFLpTU

[godzilla44]

From your post when you said if the ARs come down in price, you would get another, so I can assume that you are not made of money. Only you know what you can afford, you are not going into combat, you said shooting paper and targets, for that, a BSA will do everything a LEO will do. A Chevy will get me where I want to go just like a Rolls will. It is a status thing and a name thing. Whatever you choose, I wish you all the best.

[willforu1]

This is what I ordered from Cabelas:

The 1.5X4 with Green firedot
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Leupoldreg-Mark-AR-Mod-1-Riflescope/1573139.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3D searchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProduc ts%26Ntt%3Dleupold%2Bmod%2B1%26x%3D15%26y%3D10%26W Tz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=leupold+mod+1&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products

I will mount the scope on the Leupold Mark 2. I noticed the Mark 4 was twice as expensive as you had to buy two separate pieces. But with the Mod 4 you can mount an accessory just like you can with the Burris P.E.P.R.
http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=1251064&destination=%2Fcheckout%2Fitem_added_to_cart.jsp%3 Fresult%3Dsuccess%26categoryIds%3D104791680%7C1047 52080%7C104535180%7C%26searchPath%3D%252Fcatalog%2 52Fsearch.cmd%253Fform_state%253DsearchForm%2526N% 253D0%2526fsch%253Dtrue%2526Ntk%253DAllProducts%25 26Ntt%253Dleupold%252Bmod%252B1%2526x%253D15%2526y %253D10%2526WTz_l%253DHeader%25253BSearch-All%252BProducts%26productId%3D1573139%26backToPre viousUrl%3D%252Fcatalog%252Fproduct.jsp%253Fproduc tId%253D1573139%26WTz_l%3DChart&WTz_l=CWBAB%3BIK-714014

stay tuned as I will tell you how this system performs.