PDA

View Full Version : Cease fire means hands off your guns!



elwarpo
07-26-2014, 06:45 PM
At least 4 times today I had to tell someone not to touch their gun during a ceasfire. All 4 times people were downrange changing their target. Come on people it is not that difficult. Cease fire, clear your guns and do not touch them until the cease fire is open. This includes, uncasing them, adjusting sights... I guess I just expected better.

zcolt45
07-26-2014, 07:11 PM
Who was in charge of the range?

Range rules:
All shooters stand back from the firing line during a ceasefire. No one is to approach the shooting line/bench until the command range is hot is given, and live fire can resume. Break the rules and the range master can give a warning or ask the participant to leave the area for the day, forfeiting range/match fees for the day.

New/Leaving shooters from the line are given a short period to case/uncase equipment in transition on the line by the range master.

Safety is the ultimate concern for all.

Everyone must be aware of all the rules....

Ruger
07-26-2014, 07:42 PM
At least 4 times today I had to tell someone not to touch their gun during a ceasfire. All 4 times people were downrange changing their target. Come on people it is not that difficult. Cease fire, clear your guns and do not touch them until the cease fire is open. This includes, uncasing them, adjusting sights... I guess I just expected better.

Damn lucky it was you! I know of at least 2 RSO's that are associated with the club that would have asked them to leave the range and never return.

nrich1979
07-28-2014, 08:38 AM
Sorry I understand cease fire to mean set gun down and step out of the box ..

I leave my gun on the bench.. And stand about 6 feet back to give the person the confidence I'm not going to cause an accident..

happy_gunner
07-28-2014, 08:46 AM
You mean people should use common sense, follow instructions, and listen???? Nay I say, nay....

SuedePflow
07-28-2014, 10:07 AM
Of course we all know the rules. But it's easy to see how an ignorant person or a newbie could interpret a "cease fire" for nothing more than what it says - stop firing. Kudos for educating these people though.

TomE
07-28-2014, 10:45 AM
Follow the club's/range's rules a.k.a. the S.O.P.
If it says boot 'em,then boot 'em.

elwarpo
07-28-2014, 11:48 AM
Sorry if I was not clear, this was at the MGO meeting/fun shoot. All were members on here.

XDM 40 cal
07-29-2014, 06:45 PM
Sorry if I was not clear, this was at the MGO meeting/fun shoot. All were members on here.

Wow really, Come on MGO PPL you know the rules, RSO's and anyone that's a shooter...know the 4 rules...

Rootsy
07-31-2014, 03:00 PM
no "insert your ECI and step away from your rifles"??? No ECI mandatory???????

Dirty_Harry
07-31-2014, 03:19 PM
This is shameful!

Pyzik
07-31-2014, 03:21 PM
Sorry if I was not clear, this was at the MGO meeting/fun shoot. All were members on here.
Not defending anyone but there were more than a couple non-members and a couple new shooters.

elwarpo
07-31-2014, 07:03 PM
Agreed.

The reason I was vague on what happened and did not name names was to remind people about safety. At one point I went out to patch targets (I was not the presiding RSO) and came back to see 2 people had put 4 guns on the bench. I was upset that the 5 other people there had not stopped them from handling guns while 3 of us were downrange. This complacency gets people killed.

TomE
07-31-2014, 07:34 PM
Sorry if I was not clear, this was at the MGO meeting/fun shoot. All were members on here.
It doesn't matter who they are,if the range rules say boot them,then boot them.
Shame on the CRSO for not stepping up.

KayL
07-31-2014, 08:36 PM
Sorry if I was not clear, this was at the MGO meeting/fun shoot. All were members on here.

Hmm, who taught the RSO class?

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?258285-MGO-RSO-Class-in-Novi&highlight=range+safety+officer

Draken
07-31-2014, 09:06 PM
Hmm, who taught the RSO class?

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?258285-MGO-RSO-Class-in-Novi&highlight=range+safety+officer

I fail to see how this has any bearing on the current discussion. Elwarpo was doing the right thing...has nothing to do with Jeff teaching a class almost a year ago.

partdeux
08-01-2014, 07:45 AM
I wasn't there, so can't comment on how things were handled.

The safer events I've attended have briefings that are read from a script. Doesn't have to be long, and maybe the CRSO could have a similar briefing with the RSO in attendance.

mikeb32
08-01-2014, 08:02 AM
I wasn't there, so can't comment on how things were handled.

The safer events I've attended have briefings that are read from a script. Doesn't have to be long, and maybe the CRSO could have a similar briefing with the RSO in attendance.

I was there, unfortunately I wasn't at the range as I was attending to MGO duties at the pavilion.

There were at least 7 RSO's at the Range, One of which was a member of the hosting club. I know a Range briefing was given before the firing commenced and I have confidence in the RSO's that they would have ejected anyone who had violated the SOP of the hosting Range, should it have been necessary.

Let's remember "You can't Fix Stupid" You can only keep Educating!!

elwarpo
08-01-2014, 08:11 AM
Hmm, who taught the RSO class?

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?258285-MGO-RSO-Class-in-Novi&highlight=range+safety+officer

I will say this, Jeff taught a good class. I was a RSO in the military, and in Canada, so that was not my first RSO class, in fact i have been doing it for 20+ years. The issue is the following happened.

Cease fire was called
Weapons were made safe and verified by a RSO they were safe.
Range was declared safe and we were allowed to go to the targets
While people were downrange, some (few, not close to the majority) handled weapons.
Others around did not find it wrong for them to handle weapons and said nothing

Two wrongs make an accident

elwarpo
08-01-2014, 08:15 AM
What is past has happened. I wanted to remind people to be safe. I am not bashing anyone, just making sure people who did not know they were doing something unsafe, are now aware of it.

I suggest at the next event, we have a safety talk that spells out what is expected by people on the range.

mikeb32
08-01-2014, 08:20 AM
What is past has happened. I wanted to remind people to be safe. I am not bashing anyone, just making sure people who did not know they were doing something unsafe, are now aware of it.

I suggest at the next event, we have a safety talk that spells out what is expected by people on the range.

Agreed. We are talking about Firearms here and you are correct, mistakes can lead to deadly consequences.
Good Post, Sir.......We need to know when things like this happen so we can rectify them and do everything in our power to prevent them from ever happening again.

KayL
08-01-2014, 09:12 PM
If there were SEVEN RSOs in the room, and not one of them saw or said anything... they were taught wrong.

Tallbear
08-01-2014, 11:18 PM
If there were SEVEN RSOs in the room, and not one of them saw or said anything... they were taught wrong.

It was on an outdoor range.

topgun
08-03-2014, 07:59 PM
In the construction and other major industries, a short safety talk is given to the workers prior to the start of their shift. The topic will deal with safety issues that most likely come up during their work shift. Almost all of the workers know the safety rules, but the safety talk is a reminder so they will stay focused on safety, and be able to go home to their wives/husbands and kids at the end of the day.

I think if you guys are truly serious about range safety like you're saying here, it wouldn't hurt to give a range safety talk to shooters prior to shooting. Even if members should know better like you say, it would only take a few minutes and be a reminder to stay focused. Another thing that would help is safety signage on the range that will get the shooter's attention, and would outline or summarize the safety rules of the range. Everyone from management down to the clean-up people have to buy-in and be committed to safety in order for it to be successful.

It seems that everyone wants to be safe, but few are willing to do what's necessary to really achieve it.

mikeb32
08-03-2014, 08:12 PM
In the construction and other major industries, a short safety talk is given to the workers prior to the start of their shift. The topic will deal with safety issues that most likely come up during their work shift. Almost all of the workers know the safety rules, but the safety talk is a reminder so they will stay focused on safety, and be able to go home to their wives/husbands and kids at the end of the day.

I think if you guys are truly serious about range safety like you're saying here, it wouldn't hurt to give a range safety talk to shooters prior to shooting. Even if members should know better like you say, it would only take a few minutes and be a reminder to stay focused. Another thing that would help is safety signage on the range that will get the shooter's attention, and would outline or summarize the safety rules of the range. Everyone from management down to the clean-up people have to buy-in and be committed to safety in order for it to be successful.

It seems that everyone wants to be safe, but few are willing to do what's necessary to really achieve it.

A Range Safety briefing was held on the Range before shooting commenced.

Not going to offer up any excuses why this happened but after talking to a few of the RSO's and Instructors who were present at the time, here is what I believe happened:

This was at our Annual Meeting/ Election which was held at Post 46 on 7/26/2014. (Outdoor Range)
We had probably 50 or more shooters, some were in the initial group that went to the range and received the safety briefing.

When the cease fire was called all those present on the range adhered to the Command.

A couple of New Shooters, Non members had made their way to the Range during this time and proceeded to lay out their gear on one of the tables, thus prompting this issue.

In the future we will have one or two of Our MGO's monitor the approach to the Range area to prevent this from happening again.

Tallbear
08-03-2014, 08:15 PM
I think if you guys are truly serious about range safety like you're saying here, it wouldn't hurt to give a range safety talk to shooters prior to shooting.
It seems that everyone wants to be safe, but few are willing to do what's necessary to really achieve it.

Range safety instructions where given before shooters were allowed on the firing line. Obviously some shooters didn't think what they where doing was "UNSAFE". They were "reminded" of what was expected of ALL shooters on the line AND behind it.

partdeux
08-03-2014, 08:23 PM
lesson's to be learned for the next event.

topgun
08-04-2014, 05:33 AM
When the cease fire was called all those present on the range adhered to the Command.

A couple of New Shooters, Non members had made their way to the Range during this time and proceeded to lay out their gear on one of the tables, thus prompting this issue.


I don't want to come across as being "picky", but I've seen this happen many times at ranges, where new shooters come in during a cease fire. They are notified that it is a cease fire and to stand back away from the benches. If they appear to approach the benches, someone with a bull horn will notify them to stay away from the benches until the resume handling and shooting order is given.

I wasn't there and don't know how many range officers were there, but at least two are probably needed. Ones job should be limited to watching the benches and shooting area to prevent this sort of thing. And also the members who didn't go to check targets, bear some responsibility for watching for safety violations as well. Like I said earlier, everyone must buy-in and be committed to safety in order for it to be successful.

RogueLeader
08-04-2014, 06:20 AM
I agree with Topgun on the idea that safety is everyone's responsiblity.

I am not an RSO, but there have been a few times at ranges where I pointed out a 'mistake' someone has made and told them why. Depending on the nature and timing, my response has been measured, and I try to avoid embarassing anyone, unless there is an immediate safety concern.

In one instance, at a private range, someone was handling a firearm while I was checking my target; I noticed it as I turned around and they were setting their pistol down. I walked back to my shooting position, while watching them to make sure they did not handle anything else. I took them to the side and explained what they had done, nicely. They thanked me and there were no more issues after that.

DrScaryGuy
08-04-2014, 04:27 PM
In one instance, at a private range, someone was handling a firearm while I was checking my target; I noticed it as I turned around and they were setting their pistol down. I walked back to my shooting position, while watching them to make sure they did not handle anything else. I took them to the side and explained what they had done, nicely. They thanked me and there were no more issues after that.

Heh, that was polite of you. One time I was shooting at THE PIT and a cease fire was called. Everybody was backed up except for one kid in the middle who was still finishing his magazine. Once he stopped, a couple people on both far ends started walking out to change targets. He clearly was not paying attention because he popped in another magazine and fired a shot.The weird part was that he had friends with him that hadn't bothered to make sure he was doing the right thing.
They then heard every last one of us at the site start yelling and saw most of us start running towards them. Well after that one shot and everybody reacting exactly as they should have, their group left within a few minutes because pretty much everybody was backing away from them and giving them a lot of unhappy looks.
The sad part is that I don't think they apologized at all, which we probably would have heard since pretty much everybody had taken off their ears after he finished that first magazine. It's like they thought everybody else screwed up instead of them.

Dabears!
11-25-2014, 05:42 PM
one of the reasons I have yet to attend and most likely will not one of these meet and greets at the range.
too many people to worried about other things instead of safety.
good on catching it man. stay safe

JohnJak
11-26-2014, 12:38 PM
Should have called them out at the range.

langenc
11-27-2014, 11:37 AM
From post #30 above

The sad part is that I don't think they apologized at all, which we probably would have heard since pretty much everybody had taken off their ears after he finished that first magazine. It's like they thought everybody else screwed up instead of them.

They didnt know any different. They had probably done that before and no one said anything.

Jackam
12-02-2014, 02:19 PM
Should have called them out at the range.
I'd be shocked if he didn't. As a matter of fact, I'd bet the farm that he did!

I was on that range that day. Elwarpo was the safest RSO that I have ever encountered.
I was not shooting and had placed my rifle vertical in the gun rack behind the shooters. When a cease fire was called, he politely asked me to place the rifle on the bench before people went downrange.
I thought that was odd, as I would much rather have ALL rifles open and barrels pointed upward instead of directly at people, but I did what he asked.
Congrats to Elwarpo for a great job! You just cannot be too safe!

On a side note: Just why does a shooting club have a rifle/gun rack on the bench behind the shooters if it's not to be used?

kalamazoo
06-05-2015, 06:53 PM
I've seen too many people try to mess with their guns during cease fire, often with someone still down range. Yikes!

Patrick
06-07-2015, 02:19 PM
I've seen too many people try to mess with their guns during cease fire, often with someone still down range. Yikes!

Maybe we should just get rid of the 10 post minimum requirement. Or have a forum where potential sellers can just post to the minimum and not dredge up old threads and post comments like this or like "Sweet", that add nothing. Post 11 for kalamazoo was "1200 rounds of 762x39 for sale". Three hours from first post to the selling post and none of them said anything.

cmike
06-07-2015, 03:07 PM
I have not heard the ceasfire order meaning don't touch your gun.

By definition it means ceasing fire.

It's a good time to reload the magazine and such.

ltdave
06-07-2015, 04:45 PM
no "insert your ECI and step away from your rifles"??? No ECI mandatory???????

hey Root, ECIs are foreign to most everyone outside of the High Power community. could have been handguns too but again, if its not something thats provided at an event or shooters made aware of before hand probably most dont even know what ECI stands for...

on another note, if I am running a line my commands go like this:

cease fire!
make the line safe!
unload, safeties on, magazines out!
then i personally walk the line confirming all of those things...

i then command:

then line is clear, NO HANDLING OF FIREARMS, go forward and change/hang/paste your targets.

but then again, ive been called a range nazi. have yet to have an accident in 24 years...

Dolomite
06-08-2015, 08:33 AM
but then again, ive been called a range nazi. have yet to have an accident in 24 years...I'm sure 99% of experienced shooters and 100% of newbie shooters appreciate clear, concise & consistent safety directions. The shooters in between - the ones who received 15 minutes of gun safety training from their uncle who was in the Air Force reserve, or the ones who just could never follow simple instructions - they are the ones that will 'bark' over just about anything.

Pyzik
06-08-2015, 08:38 AM
Maybe we should just get rid of the 10 post minimum requirement. Or have a forum where potential sellers can just post to the minimum and not dredge up old threads and post comments like this or like "Sweet", that add nothing. Post 11 for kalamazoo was "1200 rounds of 762x39 for sale". Three hours from first post to the selling post and none of them said anything.

This is a good point. I was just coming here to see why this was bumped into my subscription feed.

ltdave
06-08-2015, 09:19 AM
I'm sure 99% of experienced shooters and 100% of newbie shooters appreciate clear, concise & consistent safety directions. The shooters in between - the ones who received 15 minutes of gun safety training from their uncle who was in the Air Force reserve, or the ones who just could never follow simple instructions - they are the ones that will 'bark' over just about anything.


Why do you have to crap on the Air Force Reserve?

Leader
06-08-2015, 09:30 AM
I'm sure 99% of experienced shooters and 100% of newbie shooters appreciate clear, concise & consistent safety directions. The shooters in between - the ones who received 15 minutes of gun safety training from their uncle who was in the Air Force reserve, or the ones who just could never follow simple instructions - they are the ones that will 'bark' over just about anything.

Well, I'm one of the others but don't fit in any of your little groups.
I,m one of the millions of common sense gun owners that know we aren't supposed to shoot people and never have in over 50+ years of gun ownership.

DV8r
06-08-2015, 10:29 AM
I suspect that most are using the ISIS "cease fire" rules where it means only the 'good guys' need to stop shooting?

langenc
06-09-2015, 09:37 AM
The gun was UNloaded!!

About that time remind the person that most gunshot injuries/deaths are caused by UNloaded guns.

I shot a match in NC a few yrs ago.

Cease fire, RSO checks all guns for safety, remove ALL guns to racks behind shooting line. Target changers may now go downrange and change targets.


At Ben Avery range in Phoenix they have elevated stand in middle of about 40 benches. Platform has PA.
They also have red and yellow lines front/rear of benches.

Cease fire-RSO or asst check each gun. Shooters are not between red/yellow lines. When guns are safe shooters may go downrange to do targets.

On the elevated platform is a gal pickle jar 2/3 full of ammo that has been removed from SAFE/UNLOADED guns.

Get between red/yellow on a cease fire and get your a55 chewed.

Renov8
06-09-2015, 11:06 PM
Of course we all know the rules. But it's easy to see how an ignorant person or a newbie could interpret a "cease fire" for nothing more than what it says - stop firing. Kudos for educating these people though.

There is a difference in knowing the rules, than in applying the rules. I am a RSO at my club and I can't tell you how many guys know the protocol, but don't follow it. The reason.....no one to enforce it. Sheer stupidity and laziness, until someone gets hurt. Unfortunately, that is the only way some learn.

jolari
06-10-2015, 04:03 PM
One way to enforce the rule and prevent people from breaking the rules it to institue "engineering controls". At each end of the shooting bench one could have a post that is about 2.5 feet behind the bench. Have a rope/plastic chain attached to one post and a carabiner attached to the other end of the rope/chain. After cease fire is called, RSO takes carabiner/rope in hand and walks the line making sure guns are cleared and safe. Then attach the carabiner/rope to the other post thus making a "fence" that would prevent people from touching their guns. Of course it is not idiot proof but one would have to actually think about going around the fence which should give most people pause to not break the rules. If someone breaks the rule anyway, there should be no argument about sending them packing as they couldn't "innocently" make a mistake.

hunterspirit
06-10-2015, 05:40 PM
I've seen too many people try to mess with their guns during cease fire, often with someone still down range. Yikes!
Newbie makes sense though, seems smarter than some multi K posters

Ferveo
07-20-2015, 07:03 PM
luckily no one was hurt.

Davemercd
07-29-2015, 07:54 PM
I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way but can someone please clarify the main intent/purpose behind not being able to touch or manipulate your firearm after the cease fire command has been given? I know this generally could be perceived as a "dumb question" but allow me to explain myself.

I worked at the Range at Stone Bay down in North Carolina, which is the main Range for Rifle/Pistol Qual for Marines stationed at Marine Corps Base Camp Lejeune. One of our Range commands is indeed Cease Fire. Immediately after the command is called the range goes/is cold. From there, the personnel on the firing line go end to end and make sure that all the weapons are clear and safe. However, the shooters are able to unholster/holster their weapons.

I can understand how this could definitely be a safety concern. I'm just curious as to where this particular set of rules came from (IE. NRA, Range Specific, etc)

partdeux
07-30-2015, 10:48 AM
A gun that is laying on a bench can not have a negligent discharge all by itself.

Maybe someone doesn't properly clear the gun and accidentally or intentionally pulls the trigger, not understanding that it's not cleared.

Not everybody has the same level of safety concern.

If they are untouched, they can't go off.

Leader
07-30-2015, 01:17 PM
A gun that is laying on a bench can not have a negligent discharge all by itself.

Maybe someone doesn't properly clear the gun and accidentally or intentionally pulls the trigger, not understanding that it's not cleared.

Not everybody has the same level of safety concern.

If they are untouched, they can't go off.

If we would just prohibit guns in this country, nobody would ever get shot.

partdeux
07-31-2015, 11:32 AM
If we would just prohibit guns in this country, nobody would ever get shot.

Or better yet track all the ammo sales ;)

Leader
07-31-2015, 12:33 PM
Or better yet track all the ammo sales ;)

Or prohibit ammo too.

Baher20018
12-20-2017, 03:03 PM
This is why I don’t like going to pistol or rifle ranges. Best ran range I’ve been too is Detroit Sportsmen Congress. Lots of eyes watching over everyone.

BuddyChryst
12-21-2017, 03:33 AM
Zombies!!!

Funny, someone earlier in the thread was called out for bumping this old thread just to up their post count to sell. Hmmmm.

PeeDee
12-21-2017, 05:50 AM
This is why I don’t like going to pistol or rifle ranges. Best ran range I’ve been too is Detroit Sportsmen Congress. Lots of eyes watching over everyone.

You are EXACTLY correct!

Some make fun of the 'good ol boy' flavor of DSC, but there is no better and few equals to the safety aspects of the entire organization in all respects. Indoor range rules are 'BEHIND RED LINE' when fire is halted, and STAY there while RO goes from station to station checking all muzzles pointed downrange, magazine wells MT, cylinders swung out and MT, chambers / barrels 'safetied,' no one allowed past red line toward firing stations, and only then will it be called safe to go forward for target change or to pick up one's brass. Outdoors, rules are the same.

Ther is no 'crash and flash 8 hr in-out' CPL course at DSC. Their CPL program is every Wed for IIRC 4 weeks and there was an NRA RO next to EVERY student on the evenings firing commenced; (First session was study of the literature and nomenclature.) Actual firing included standing, kneeling, both hands barricade etc. and safety was stressed thru out.

It is an older club which IMO lends itself to an old fashioned regard to firearms and the accompanying rules of safety.

There are quite a few fine shooters there in all disciplines as well, and I have never met anyone who was not respectful and willing to help without being intrusive. Image is not their forte - safety and mutual respect is.

americanexpress
12-11-2023, 08:07 PM
That is why I joined a private gun club. Keeps the novices away.

Roundballer
12-11-2023, 11:42 PM
Another old thread dug up.

XDM 40 cal
12-12-2023, 04:16 AM
Another old thread dug up.

:yeahthat: :coffee: