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RusticCamper
01-13-2015, 12:01 AM
Hello, I have a question that i am looking at different rifle calibers for hunting, deer/bear and other game. However I am curious as in to is their a formula I can do to tell what caliber best would suit what animal? The issue I see is for example, is when comparing 45-70 gov to a 300 win mag, the Kinetic energy on the 300 is more then the 45-70. However I know just from peoples word of mouth who has hunted bear, and been around more calibers, a 45-70 is more powerful. I guess I am looking for a way to figure out scientifically what calibers perform different compared to to others to make the right choice for a rifle caliber best suited for me. Thank you for your time and i appreciate any direction or information on this you could point or give to me.

Roundballer
01-13-2015, 10:43 AM
I guess I am looking for a way to figure out scientifically what calibers perform different compared to to others to make the right choice for a rifle caliber best suited for me. Thank you for your time and i appreciate any direction or information on this you could point or give to me.

It is not as simple as what you are looking for. If it could be boiled down in a math formula, we would only have about 6 cartridges total, with variances in bullet construction for different purposes.

Best:


Small bore rifle
Large bore rifle
Small bore pistol
Large bore pistol
Heavy shotgun
Light shotgun


The first thing in determining what is the best for you is to decide what you want it to do. You would not choose a 30-30 to make 600 yard shots. It would also not be wise to choose one of several high powered magnums when you will never have a shot over 200 yards. Then, is this just for target work, or do you want it to retain some ability to do something when it gets to the target?

You make your caliber choices based on what your needs are.

MI-1911
01-13-2015, 10:46 AM
There are so many variables that need to be considered. It's not just the caliber, but the bullet weight, and design as well. Other considerations are the average distance your shots will be taken, along with the environment, such as open plains, brush, etc.

MJssr
01-13-2015, 11:48 AM
unfortunately, as MI-1911 stated, the "best or right" caliber depends on the quarry, expected distances you will be shooting, recoil preference, budget constraints, etc.

perhaps if you let us know what you want to do we could offer better suggestions, as it is your post is rather vague.

10x25mm
01-15-2015, 10:45 AM
There is enough overlap in the applicability of hunting cartridges that the selection process becomes qualitative, rather than quantitative. A light cartridge might be perfectly suitable at short range, but only a heavier cartridge would be appropriate at longer range on the same game animal. Here is a good article on an excellent website which delves into the details of this issue:

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Game+Killing+Fundamentals.html

Ol` Joe
01-25-2015, 07:01 PM
The Lyman #47 IIRC has a chapter on game and suitable cartridges and includes a table based on Ed Mantus's "Optimum Game Weight" formula and Taylors "KO" formula. Both formulas are on the web but if a Chart such as Lyman published is I can't say. Both formulas shun kinetic energy as a measure of the bullets "killing power".

RusticCamper
02-23-2015, 08:06 AM
Thank you all for your replies, I apologize as I have been computer-less and was unable to get back until now.

10x25mm
That is a interesting article and thank you for linking it. It did touch on some things I had questions with. In that article this was a primary question of mine : The speed of incapacitation or killing is one method for which the hunter is able to measure a cartridges effectiveness on game in comparison to other cartridges. That is what i am looking to be able to do in more detail even. Again thank you for the link, had very good information, but left me thinking which caliber would be more appropriate for closer hutning 200 and closer, 45-70 or 375 H&H magnum for larger game such as bear and why? If i am catching on, i would assume the 45-70 govt due to the bullets weight due to heavier bullet as to the 375 is lighter? Here is the 2 different i just seen, i know construction is different and the construction of the bullet is key, but 375 doesnt have these kind of contstuction:
Ammo .45-70 Government Cor-Bon Hunter Hard Cast 460 Grain 1650 fps 20 Round Box
Ammo .375 H&H Norma African PH 350 Grain Woodleigh Weldcore FMJ Bullet 2300 fps 10 Rounds
Im more seeking, what rifle is better for up close hunting of large game and penetration.

Has anyone every seen this calculator caller: Energy, Momentum and Taylor KO calculator
The link for it: http://www.n4lcd.com/calc/

I guess in short, I am in search of a better possible formula into the debate of what a caliber offers and differs from one to the next, and the way of finding that out when considering possible calibers for hunting.

For instance here is two separate calibers then I guess my question relies on. .338 Lapua Magnum vs. 375 H&H magnum. I understand for range 338 Lapua Magnum, and for closer shooting the 375 H&H. However both make a 250-300 grain bullets, both make it in the same bullet construction configurations. However the speed which makes sense to me is the 338 always out performs the 375 H&H. The 338 also performs better in kinetic energy I am assuming by velocity as well. I understand many more things go into a bullet on how it will perform then kinetic energy, That is more a less of what I am trying to find out. If large game hunting is the goal, and penetration in needed, and either rifle will be shot from little more or little less than 300 yards, why do more people choose the 375 H&H over the 338 Lapua? Is it based on a principle of the 375 can get a max grain bullet of 350 grains as to the 338 can only get a max of 300? Or is it the possibility you have a better chance of generally getting shots 300 yards and closer. From the research I have done and seen on the 338 Lapua out of the two is superior in range. I also do not ever plan on hunting at the range some people have mastered with the Lapua. However before choosing either I would like to understand what makes the 375 H&H magnum a better rifle the 338 Lapua magnum for large game hunting. Hopefully that is a bit better of what information I am seeking on. If you were going large game hunting, what caliber would you want if those were the only two on the table to choose from and why?

Draken
02-23-2015, 08:38 AM
One of the biggest things people miss is that in order for that all of the energy to be used, it must be transferred inside of the the animal. Any over penetration is lost energy. A 300 winmag is a great game round, but would not try to take a white tail at 50 yards because 99% of the rounds designed for it are going to punch right though, where a 30-30, with similar weight bullet (going MUCH slower) will drop all of the energy inside of the deer, resulting in more "stopping power". Going to get the same result with the 45/70 vs the .338 Lapua, the 45/70 will dump it's energy much faster, but will not be effective out at 700 yards (or at least much less so).

MI-1911
02-23-2015, 08:42 AM
Hydrostatic shock as a factor in selection of ammunition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

Ol` Joe
02-23-2015, 10:51 AM
Has anyone every seen this calculator caller: Energy, Momentum and Taylor KO calculator
The link for it: http://www.n4lcd.com/calc/


That is one of the formula I suggested in my post above. Taylor was a well know professional hunter who had very strong opinions on what it took to stop game. The Mantus formula is similar in some respects, both put caliber and weight of the bullet above speed

RusticCamper
02-23-2015, 01:12 PM
That is one of the formula I suggested in my post above. Taylor was a well know professional hunter who had very strong opinions on what it took to stop game. The Mantus formula is similar in some respects, both put caliber and weight of the bullet above speed

My mistake sir I missed the Taylor part, I had checked the Mantus, thank you regardless I do appreciate that. It makes sense also.

Thank you to everyone's input i definitely got a way better grasp now on this and now understand the answers to my questions. I just wanted to have more information (as you all provided) before i look into next rifle to purchase. I just this time wanted to have more knowledge on why im buying that caliber, instead of this one is what they use so to speak.

MI-1911 thank you for the link, interesting also, the link 10x25 had linked also touched on hydraulic shock and hydrostatic shock. Will be doing more research on those.


Thank you all again!

10x25mm
02-24-2015, 04:57 PM
Thank you all for your replies, I apologize as I have been computer-less and was unable to get back until now.

10x25mm
That is a interesting article and thank you for linking it. It did touch on some things I had questions with. In that article this was a primary question of mine : The speed of incapacitation or killing is one method for which the hunter is able to measure a cartridges effectiveness on game in comparison to other cartridges. That is what i am looking to be able to do in more detail even. Again thank you for the link, had very good information, but left me thinking which caliber would be more appropriate for closer hutning 200 and closer, 45-70 or 375 H&H magnum for larger game such as bear and why? If i am catching on, i would assume the 45-70 govt due to the bullets weight due to heavier bullet as to the 375 is lighter? Here is the 2 different i just seen, i know construction is different and the construction of the bullet is key, but 375 doesnt have these kind of contstuction:
Ammo .45-70 Government Cor-Bon Hunter Hard Cast 460 Grain 1650 fps 20 Round Box
Ammo .375 H&H Norma African PH 350 Grain Woodleigh Weldcore FMJ Bullet 2300 fps 10 Rounds
Im more seeking, what rifle is better for up close hunting of large game and penetration.


I have used the .45-70 Government for Michigan hunting since I bought a Marlin 1895 in 1971. Equipped with a receiver sight, it has been my go to gun for hunting in the deep woods, although I did kill a buck at 220 long paces with it. Use either the Speer 400 grain bullet or a hard cast 440 grain gas check bullet. It has never failed to kill deer (and one black bear) with single shots, but I am perhaps too cautious about my shooting. Tend to pass on sketchy setups. The .45-70 suffers from a rainbow trajectory, so you have to spend some time with it at the range to work out where it will hit at the different ranges. Still, it is a splendid choice for hunting where you won't encounter shots much beyond 200 yards.

The .375 H&H is my all time favorite big game rifle cartridge. I took a grizzly with it in Alaska, backing up another hunter whose .378 Weatherby should have dropped the charging boar. They are tough critters and my final .375 H&H shot anchored it. Since then, I was able to purchase left handed .375 H&H bolt guns and have used them exclusively for all game larger than deer. The .375 H&H has a trajectory similar to the .30-06 with 270 - 300 grain bullets, so it is suitable for long shots. Of special note, it suffers much less wind drift than small bore cartridges so it is easier to hit with at long distance in the windy West. The .375 H&H crumples game with authority. Elk approaching 1,000 pounds on the hoof go down immediately with a hit behind the shoulder. The heavy slug breaks a lot of bones and pulps the lungs.

Subjectively, I find the recoil of the .45-70 and .375 H&H to be less obnoxious than the recoil of the fast, small bore magnums - especially the .338 Winchester. The .45-70 and .375 H&H seem to give you a strong push, rather than the sharp hit of the .300 and .338 magnums. My comfort with these two calibers has improved my shooting, an important point in selecting a hunting rifle. If you are uncomfortable with a rifle, you will shoot it poorly and miss game. It is really important that a hunting rifle stock fit you well in your hunting clothing, be fitted with a good recoil pad (I use Kick-Eez pads), and have the telescope properly positioned so the reticle is level and you don't get hit by the ocular.

Loads are a matter of personal preference. I am cheap, so I typically use mass produced hunting bullets. The .45-70 and .375 H&H offer such a killing margin on North American game at the ranges you use them at that you really don't have to use premium bullets, with the possible exception of the big bears.

DP425
02-24-2015, 07:00 PM
Hello, I have a question that i am looking at different rifle calibers for hunting, deer/bear and other game. However I am curious as in to is their a formula I can do to tell what caliber best would suit what animal? The issue I see is for example, is when comparing 45-70 gov to a 300 win mag, the Kinetic energy on the 300 is more then the 45-70. However I know just from peoples word of mouth who has hunted bear, and been around more calibers, a 45-70 is more powerful. I guess I am looking for a way to figure out scientifically what calibers perform different compared to to others to make the right choice for a rifle caliber best suited for me. Thank you for your time and i appreciate any direction or information on this you could point or give to me.


Bold = WHAT?!?!?

There is no condition I am aware of where a .45/70 would be more effective on target than .300WM when proper projectile is selected. You have to stop listening to dimwits stuck on 1870's tech.



As for the question- there are various "formula's" people have come up with. But none of them actually mean anything. They are all simple calculations that individuals have created. It isn't like a mathematical rule that is hard and true; can be proven. We are not talking 2x2=4, end of story. Almost all of these formulas fail to take into consideration bullet design and hydrostatic shock- which are two of the absolute most important parts of selecting the right cartridge/bullet for the job.

You need to consider the animal you're shooting and what sort of penetration you need. Ideally, the bullet will exit, but retain little energy. However, that needs to be tempered with the understanding that, while a .22LR will expend all of its energy on a bear, that does not mean it will out-perform a .50 BMG simply because the .50 retains most of its energy upon exiting. The more energy displaced into the tissue and organs, generally, the greater the damage. This is where bullet design is important. Your best place to start would be looking at ammunition; find big game ammunition in whatever calibers you are interested in, look at the energy numbers... See if you can find any penetration numbers. Go from there.



People say a LOT of non-sense. That whole thing with a .30-30 being better on deer than a .300WM at 50 yards is full on non-sense. Select the right bullet, the .300WM will cause vastly more damage every single time. The fact that it will also pass through just about every single time is not at all relevant. And as someone said, hydrostatic shock is an important factor. It causes much larger wound cavities than would otherwise be possible, and it has effects far beyond the location of the wound. It is theorized that the cases where an animal drops dead on the spot from a non-CNS hit are a direct result of hydrostatic shock causing an instant and massive hemorrhage in the brain. It has nothing to do with direct damage to tissue; that does not in and of itself cause immediate death. For immediate brain death to happen, the CNS must be hit directly, or it must sustain a shock large enough to disrupt and shut down the system. It is essentially, what sets higher velocity rifles apart from handguns.

I suggest you follow that wiki article and study up.




None of this should be construed to tell you that the ideal hunting caliber would be a 20mm shoulder fired anti-tank rifle. Yes, it would provide more lethal effects on target than just about anything smaller, but you have to weigh usability against terminal ballistics. If the largest rifle you can handle and connect with is a .243, then that is what you use. You don't jump up behind a .700 Nitro Express simply because, IF you happen to connect, it will do a lot of damage. Ability to place the round on the vitals or CNS from the maximum expected distance will always be more important than shear size of the ammunition. Which would you rather have, a .700 NE that you can never, ever hit anything with, or a .223 with 80gr soft point that you can make headshots with every single time? If you answer .700NE, you have a lot more to learn.

DP425
02-24-2015, 07:40 PM
http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Game+Killing+Fundamentals.html

That is a very good place to start- understanding the game-velocity-energy relation is the first place to start when selecting a cartridge.

Unfortunately, most people that will pass on information to you, do so without understanding terminal ballistics beyond blood loss (which itself, they often lack understanding in the mechanisms of wounding)

RusticCamper
02-27-2015, 12:53 PM
Thank you for the detailed reply 10x25.
I completely agree on being caution with shots as well. I had looked at corbons bullets in similar grain that were hard cast. There is a buffalo bore which appears to make a lot of 430 grain bullets all moving at around 1500 and higher. The Cor-bon was the Cor-Bon hunter hard cast 460 grain, 1650 FPS. Have you tried Cor-Bon or buffalo bore? They seem to be just really beefed up, and I see certain buffalo bore advise what rifles you can and cannot shoot them out of. Also Level Evolution have you heard or tried? I like 200 yard and closer cause I rather not be shooting long range in a bit thicker woods. The 375 H&H seems to be everyone’s majority that I talk to or see posted around on other forums for larger game hunting that they prefer due to the distance and still a hefty bullet. What bullet construction did you choose out of curiosity for the grizzly? I see a lot of people always regarding the A-frame bullet as a wonderful choice. Haven’t looked at much of different ammo personally, as I am still bouncing around on all different rifles I want, (for sport, collection and hunting). Trajectory yes the ballistics I can understand the reference in similarity to the 375 and 30-06. I have also read other places to also say the same about recoil, a lot of the “Oh the recoil is terrible” is often debunked by people who shoot them regularly and all say they are really not that bad. Again Thank you for the reply and feedback input sir.

RusticCamper
02-27-2015, 01:55 PM
In Reply to: DP425
Sir, the line in bold that you have highlighted is exactly what I was trying to figure a formula for as to the next line I say “I am looking for a way to figure out scientifically what calibers perform different compared to others”. I am not holding the word of mouth to be my end all solution, that is why I am however seeking information on formulas often used and why. I do appreciate anyone's input on any question or information I ever seek, even if they are from a different school of thought then what may be correct. I wouldn’t say they are a “dimwit” lol, perhaps misinformed. I appreciate all input and time out of someones day to share their knowledge, even if it is not 100% correct.

I was assuming bullet calculations on performance would be more then as you say “We are not talking 2x2=4, end of story.” I am fine with diving into more complicated and deeper math or science as long as I understand what and why something is being added.

I am slightly confused however on “find big game ammunition in whatever calibers you are interested in, look at the energy numbers... See if you can find any penetration numbers. Go from there.” What would be the place or way you would suggest I can find out penetration of one caliber to the next? That’s where I was when I made this post, that’s why I wanted to see when calibers get close in comparison, what one to choose and why?

The wiki article that was linked by user :MI-1911 I did read when he linked it.

This post however was not addressing the factors of marksmanship. Regardless of caliber, if I was going out hunting and plan on killing an animal, I would assume I would have the common courtesy to be able to make a clean ethical shot with whatever caliber I use. For when you say “If you answer .700NE, you have a lot more to learn.” Well, no I would not choose that, and I see the relation to this topic, but marksmanship is not something I was addressing. I would say it would be a given choose the caliber you can hit your mark every time with. I would rather plink at paper then at any animal to practice my aim. I hope I could deserve a little more credit on making a smart caliber choice if it was based on power vs marksmanship.

The link you sent I appreciate, however 10x25 did post that link ago about a month ago that I had reviewed again recently.

I appreciate your reply sir, but the subject relating back to how a caliber works different from the next into hunting and what formula is used to determine primary question of mine : The speed of incapacitation or killing is one method for which the hunter is able to measure a cartridges effectiveness on game in comparison to other cartridges. I will use these 2 as a reference, but the .338 Lapua mag vs the .375 H&H, which one would you choose and why? The .338 Lapua mag moves way faster, delivers astounding KE, however the .375 H&H can use a 50 grain heavier bullet, move slower and have lower energy, but on the calculator Ol’ Joe linked http://www.n4lcd.com/calc/ the 375 would be the way to go. Along with more then what that calculator says, what others previously had posted and discussed on I too would probably choose the 375 H&H over the 338 Lapua magnum.

10x25mm
02-27-2015, 04:20 PM
Thank you for the detailed reply 10x25.
I completely agree on being caution with shots as well. I had looked at corbons bullets in similar grain that were hard cast. There is a buffalo bore which appears to make a lot of 430 grain bullets all moving at around 1500 and higher. The Cor-bon was the Cor-Bon hunter hard cast 460 grain, 1650 FPS. Have you tried Cor-Bon or buffalo bore? They seem to be just really beefed up, and I see certain buffalo bore advise what rifles you can and cannot shoot them out of. Also Level Evolution have you heard or tried? I like 200 yard and closer cause I rather not be shooting long range in a bit thicker woods. The 375 H&H seems to be everyone’s majority that I talk to or see posted around on other forums for larger game hunting that they prefer due to the distance and still a hefty bullet. What bullet construction did you choose out of curiosity for the grizzly? I see a lot of people always regarding the A-frame bullet as a wonderful choice. Haven’t looked at much of different ammo personally, as I am still bouncing around on all different rifles I want, (for sport, collection and hunting). Trajectory yes the ballistics I can understand the reference in similarity to the 375 and 30-06. I have also read other places to also say the same about recoil, a lot of the “Oh the recoil is terrible” is often debunked by people who shoot them regularly and all say they are really not that bad. Again Thank you for the reply and feedback input sir.

As indicated before, I am cheap and tend to 'roll my own' rather than use factory ammunition. My 440 grain gas checked cast bullet for the .45-70 in the Marlin is from a custom mold I picked up at a gun show. For hunting loads, I use 90% lead, 8% antimony, and 2% tin alloy. Bullets come out over 20 BHN hardness, which has proven more than adequate. Can't compare it to commercial loads because I have never used any. I launch these bullets at just over 1,550 fps as measured across my PACT chronograph. Think this is a milder load than either CorBon or Buffalo Bore, but can't be certain because I have never used them or the Leverloution. It is noticeably sharper than any standard 405 grain .45-70 load, though. Probably could develop a hotter load, but this load has proven more than adequate for my purposes.

The .375 H&H load used on the grizzly was an old nickel silver tipped factory Winchester 300 grain Silvertip probably made in the early 1950's near the end of their manufacture. These were the first American premium bullets and are far superior to the current aluminum capped Silvertips. My companion was using factory .378 Weatherby loads with the 300 grain Nosler partition, the only premium bullet available in 1970 when we shot that bear. His Noslers performed decently, but I think the .378 Weatherby was throwing them too fast. His first shot was just over 110 yards (measured as 20 rods with my survey chain) and his subsequent shots were closer. My finisher was at 12 yards, an emotional experience. His front cores were gone and the bullets veered off track after a foot of penetration, probably as the front core disintegrated. My Silvertip drove through the collarbone and went straight all the way to the bear's bladder, where we recovered it. Not much expansion, just over 1/2 inch maximum diameter. But it went dead straight through that critter cutting all kinds of vital stuff.

Today I load three bullets in the .375 H&H for hunting: the 285 grain Speer Grand Slam, the 270 grain Hornady spire point, and the 300 grain Hornady steel jacketed FMJ round nose. They all work just fine.

Unless you have a medical condition, you should be able to shoot a properly fitting .375 H&H off the bench, off a secure rest, without too much fuss. Set your bench rest and seat so your spine is vertical, not angled forward. You don't shoot 400 rounds in a day like you would with a .22 lr, AR, or AK; but a thirty round bench session with the .375 H&H is fun and there are no bruises the next day. Economics will also tend to restrain your .375 H&H shooting unless you are Warren Buffett. One trick off the bench is to wear a padded high power shooting coat or slide orthopedic knee protectors on your elbows. .375 H&H recoil tends to drive your elbows into the bench and elbow protectors keep this from getting painful. Elbows are more of an issue than your shoulder if you are set up properly. If you are a right hander sighting in a .375 H&H on the bench, you want it to strike about an inch low and two inches left at your sight in range. Recoil while the bullet is in the barrel will put a rifle sighted in this way dead on center offhand.

Offhand shooting a .375 H&H is a lark. Snug the rifle into your shoulder and get your cheek down firmly on the comb of the stock. Pull, don't squeeze or jerk, the trigger as your crosshairs cross the target center. A hit every time. Wear your hunting clothing, and only your hunting clothing.

RusticCamper
02-27-2015, 06:10 PM
As indicated before, I am cheap and tend to 'roll my own' rather than use factory ammunition. My 440 grain gas checked cast bullet for the .45-70 in the Marlin is from a custom mold I picked up at a gun show. For hunting loads, I use 90% lead, 8% antimony, and 2% tin alloy. Bullets come out over 20 BHN hardness, which has proven more than adequate. Can't compare it to commercial loads because I have never used any. I launch these bullets at just over 1,550 fps as measured across my PACT chronograph. Think this is a milder load than either CorBon or Buffalo Bore, but can't be certain because I have never used them or the Leverloution. It is noticeably sharper than any standard 405 grain .45-70 load, though. Probably could develop a hotter load, but this load has proven more than adequate for my purposes.

The .375 H&H load used on the grizzly was an old nickel silver tipped factory Winchester 300 grain Silvertip probably made in the early 1950's near the end of their manufacture. These were the first American premium bullets and are far superior to the current aluminum capped Silvertips. My companion was using factory .378 Weatherby loads with the 300 grain Nosler partition, the only premium bullet available in 1970 when we shot that bear. His Noslers performed decently, but I think the .378 Weatherby was throwing them too fast. His first shot was just over 110 yards (measured as 20 rods with my survey chain) and his subsequent shots were closer. My finisher was at 12 yards, an emotional experience. His front cores were gone and the bullets veered off track after a foot of penetration, probably as the front core disintegrated. My Silvertip drove through the collarbone and went straight all the way to the bear's bladder, where we recovered it. Not much expansion, just over 1/2 inch maximum diameter. But it went dead straight through that critter cutting all kinds of vital stuff.

Today I load three bullets in the .375 H&H for hunting: the 285 grain Speer Grand Slam, the 270 grain Hornady spire point, and the 300 grain Hornady steel jacketed FMJ round nose. They all work just fine.

Unless you have a medical condition, you should be able to shoot a properly fitting .375 H&H off the bench, off a secure rest, without too much fuss. Set your bench rest and seat so your spine is vertical, not angled forward. You don't shoot 400 rounds in a day like you would with a .22 lr, AR, or AK; but a thirty round bench session with the .375 H&H is fun and there are no bruises the next day. Economics will also tend to restrain your .375 H&H shooting unless you are Warren Buffett. One trick off the bench is to wear a padded high power shooting coat or slide orthopedic knee protectors on your elbows. .375 H&H recoil tends to drive your elbows into the bench and elbow protectors keep this from getting painful. Elbows are more of an issue than your shoulder if you are set up properly. If you are a right hander sighting in a .375 H&H on the bench, you want it to strike about an inch low and two inches left at your sight in range. Recoil while the bullet is in the barrel will put a rifle sighted in this way dead on center offhand.

Offhand shooting a .375 H&H is a lark. Snug the rifle into your shoulder and get your cheek down firmly on the comb of the stock. Pull, don't squeeze or jerk, the trigger as your crosshairs cross the target center. A hit every time. Wear your hunting clothing, and only your hunting clothing.

Yes sir I would can definitely see why you reload for that round, if I was to buy that caliber rifle it would definitely be something I too would look into. Those 45-70 cartridges are a bit pricey lol. Your reloads sound to be on a similar par with some of the offered loads through buffalo bore at least on weight and speed, as to the lead bullet make ups they use I am unsure on. I don’t want to get off topic and what not from this and move into a reloading topic, but may I ask you what press you started with on reloading to where you are now? Or is there another post on this possibly where you have commented on in the reloading section of what you use and why?

On the 375 with using the 300 grain silvertips (the nickel and silver) what do you find that makes them better then todays aluminum capped silvertiped? Also along with the difference on the .378 Weatherby vs that 375 H&H, from just quickly browsing through different cartridges for each, it appears the main difference is the Weatherby is pretty similar to the 375 H&H on a lot just moving however at a lot higher fps (as most Weatherbys always seem to do). With that the KE also rising more. By your experience on the bullet recovery, I would rather that bullet that kept on its path in this case the 375 H&H then the 378 that deviated. That primarily comes down to also however bullet construction correct most of the time and weight?

Are you reloading the 375 H&H for saving price or producing a better bullet, or both? I do not currently reload, and just recently picked up a book “The ABC’s of reloading” cause I find it interesting, but on forums (not here) but prior when I had looked, a lot of people had said, pistol rounds and rare/ odd calibers including rifles you will save money and generally produce a better bullet, does that generally hold true? I understand bulk ammo you can buy may sometimes beat the price you could reload for, i.e. 223 or 7.62x39 or any Russian surplus, yet won’t be on par for the quality you could reload for.

I am in pretty good health and shape (knock on wood haha) so I should be okay on handling the recoil, I will however try the knee protectors on the elbow trick, sounds like a great idea. I highly appreciate the sighting in tips and will apply them if I end up going with the 375 or just in general to give it a go on other caliber rifles. The hunting clothing I have no problem wearing to the range and is a good idea, however with how cold it has been I have been unwilling to drive all the way out to the local range and do any shooting.

On a side note of calibers, and seeing as you have hunted grizzly, I have read (I don’t agree cause I cant see how it would even be close on penetration) but people say some guides that are around bears carry 12 gauges with granite and benefit of a reputable ammo, the Brenneke USA black magic magnum 3 inch rifles slug. Just in my opinion I would much rather and prefer a rifle of a suitable caliber for grizzly encounter then that. What is your take on that compared to rifles? Please note that I personally am not saying it can or cannot do what they advertise, and I see a lot of people on hunting forums bring that ammo up, just curious on input about that. Thank you either way sir for your time and input on all this, I do highly appreciate it.

DP425
02-27-2015, 06:41 PM
In Reply to: DP425
Sir, the line in bold that you have highlighted is exactly what I was trying to figure a formula for as to the next line I say “I am looking for a way to figure out scientifically what calibers perform different compared to others”. I am not holding the word of mouth to be my end all solution, that is why I am however seeking information on formulas often used and why. I do appreciate anyone's input on any question or information I ever seek, even if they are from a different school of thought then what may be correct. I wouldn’t say they are a “dimwit” lol, perhaps misinformed. I appreciate all input and time out of someones day to share their knowledge, even if it is not 100% correct.

I was assuming bullet calculations on performance would be more then as you say “We are not talking 2x2=4, end of story.” I am fine with diving into more complicated and deeper math or science as long as I understand what and why something is being added.
Essentially, there are so many more factors that these formulas do not account for that their usefulness is questionable.

I am slightly confused however on “find big game ammunition in whatever calibers you are interested in, look at the energy numbers... See if you can find any penetration numbers. Go from there.” What would be the place or way you would suggest I can find out penetration of one caliber to the next? That’s where I was when I made this post, that’s why I wanted to see when calibers get close in comparison, what one to choose and why?
Unforunately, to find penetration, you'll have to search. Most hunting bullet manufactures in the rifle calibers don't provide those numbers. There are a lot of people shooting bullets into ballistics gel on youtube though. Another option would be to get the Clear Ballistics gel, find people with rifles chambered in cartridges you are considering, buy the ammo, and conduct your own tests.

The wiki article that was linked by user :MI-1911 I did read when he linked it.

This post however was not addressing the factors of marksmanship. Regardless of caliber, if I was going out hunting and plan on killing an animal, I would assume I would have the common courtesy to be able to make a clean ethical shot with whatever caliber I use. For when you say “If you answer .700NE, you have a lot more to learn.” Well, no I would not choose that, and I see the relation to this topic, but marksmanship is not something I was addressing. I would say it would be a given choose the caliber you can hit your mark every time with. I would rather plink at paper then at any animal to practice my aim. I hope I could deserve a little more credit on making a smart caliber choice if it was based on power vs marksmanship.
You haven't been around the typical hunter very much then have you? LOL Most of them I've run across consider 150 yards a "long shot"... and the sad thing is, they will tell you 150 yards is actually closer to 300... but they won't be BSing- they will actually believe it. Most hunters shoot far less than a box of ammo a year. Very few will EVER clean the bore of their rifle. Basically, I don't know what your capabilities and understanding of your own limitations are. Many people will chose caliber over shot placement; that's why I made those comments. if it's not for your benefit, perhaps one of those guys that hunt deer with a.300 Rem Ultra Mag might see it and a light go off "Wait, there is a such thing as "too much gun?"

The link you sent I appreciate, however 10x25 did post that link ago about a month ago that I had reviewed again recently.
I've posted a number of links about wound mechanics, terminal ballistics and hydrostatic shock before; a few others have as well. But, it seems no matter how often they are posted, a lot of people either ignore them or don't believe it. It's hard to convince someone that their 30 years of empirical evidence is false. Just look at the pistol caliber debate. How many people are still holding on to that BS about .45 ACP being superior and a "one shot man stopper"? A lot of those guys are beyond help- but perhaps a few will read and study up... and come to understand that you don't need a 120mm main gun with HEAT rounds for deer... and all standard pistol cartridges suck equally.

I appreciate your reply sir, but the subject relating back to how a caliber works different from the next into hunting and what formula is used to determine primary question of mine : The speed of incapacitation or killing is one method for which the hunter is able to measure a cartridges effectiveness on game in comparison to other cartridges. I will use these 2 as a reference, but the .338 Lapua mag vs the .375 H&H, which one would you choose and why? The .338 Lapua mag moves way faster, delivers astounding KE, however the .375 H&H can use a 50 grain heavier bullet, move slower and have lower energy, but on the calculator Ol’ Joe linked http://www.n4lcd.com/calc/ the 375 would be the way to go. Along with more then what that calculator says, what others previously had posted and discussed on I too would probably choose the 375 H&H over the 338 Lapua magnum.Well, here is the problem. That calculator does not take bullet composition into consideration at all. Toss a brass solid in the .375 and a lighter, rapidly expanding bullet into the .338LM and you're going to see a remarkable difference- the .338LM will be devastating to the point of ruining a LOT of meat. The .375 H&H will likely be a full pass through with very little additional damage unless the bullet strikes a bone hard enough to induce a significant yaw. But you're still missing out on the energy transfer needed to cause massive shock.

This is what I'm talking about- no formula exists that takes ALL of the various factors into consideration. Pretty much all formulas expect the bullets will be of similar design and behave in a similar fashion. In real life, it doesn't work like that. These formulas are so varied, not only is there no way to say which one is more "accurate" than the next, but they can often given entirely conflicting results. Long story short, aside from testing on live animals in a controlled environment (and we have studies that have already done this, so we can consider certain known probabilities when considering non-tested cartridges)... the most effective way to make an informed decision yourself is from researching the test data on terminal ballistics and mechanisms of wounding... and shoot a bunch of ballistics gel.

In truth, I think many of the calibers being mentioned on here are over-kill if you can place reasonably accurate shots... and are not talking about dropping game at 400-500 yards. .338LM, .375H&H... even .300WM... a regular old .308, .270 or .30-06, using proper ammunition and accurate shot placement is sufficient to take any game in Michigan... and likely, the entire US. Again... assuming you're talking typical distances. I mean, even out west the guides try to get you within 200-300 yards of your target. There is zero need for a .338LM under those conditions.

DP425
02-27-2015, 06:46 PM
On a side note of calibers, and seeing as you have hunted grizzly, I have read (I don’t agree cause I cant see how it would even be close on penetration) but people say some guides that are around bears carry 12 gauges with granite and benefit of a reputable ammo, the Brenneke USA black magic magnum 3 inch rifles slug. Just in my opinion I would much rather and prefer a rifle of a suitable caliber for grizzly encounter then that. What is your take on that compared to rifles? Please note that I personally am not saying it can or cannot do what they advertise, and I see a lot of people on hunting forums bring that ammo up, just curious on input about that. Thank you either way sir for your time and input on all this, I do highly appreciate it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftrCtOyLrmU

That is a 2-3/4" slug- doesn't say what range it is fired at. But, it seems to have went about 12.5". I suppose that would be a matter of personal preference if one would think this sufficient. Seems to dump the vast majority of its energy within 6" and falls below 100ft-lb by 8"

10x25mm
02-27-2015, 08:40 PM
Yes sir I would can definitely see why you reload for that round, if I was to buy that caliber rifle it would definitely be something I too would look into. Those 45-70 cartridges are a bit pricey lol. Your reloads sound to be on a similar par with some of the offered loads through buffalo bore at least on weight and speed, as to the lead bullet make ups they use I am unsure on. I don’t want to get off topic and what not from this and move into a reloading topic, but may I ask you what press you started with on reloading to where you are now? Or is there another post on this possibly where you have commented on in the reloading section of what you use and why?

On the 375 with using the 300 grain silvertips (the nickel and silver) what do you find that makes them better then todays aluminum capped silvertiped? Also along with the difference on the .378 Weatherby vs that 375 H&H, from just quickly browsing through different cartridges for each, it appears the main difference is the Weatherby is pretty similar to the 375 H&H on a lot just moving however at a lot higher fps (as most Weatherbys always seem to do). With that the KE also rising more. By your experience on the bullet recovery, I would rather that bullet that kept on its path in this case the 375 H&H then the 378 that deviated. That primarily comes down to also however bullet construction correct most of the time and weight?

Are you reloading the 375 H&H for saving price or producing a better bullet, or both? I do not currently reload, and just recently picked up a book “The ABC’s of reloading” cause I find it interesting, but on forums (not here) but prior when I had looked, a lot of people had said, pistol rounds and rare/ odd calibers including rifles you will save money and generally produce a better bullet, does that generally hold true? I understand bulk ammo you can buy may sometimes beat the price you could reload for, i.e. 223 or 7.62x39 or any Russian surplus, yet won’t be on par for the quality you could reload for.

I am in pretty good health and shape (knock on wood haha) so I should be okay on handling the recoil, I will however try the knee protectors on the elbow trick, sounds like a great idea. I highly appreciate the sighting in tips and will apply them if I end up going with the 375 or just in general to give it a go on other caliber rifles. The hunting clothing I have no problem wearing to the range and is a good idea, however with how cold it has been I have been unwilling to drive all the way out to the local range and do any shooting.

On a side note of calibers, and seeing as you have hunted grizzly, I have read (I don’t agree cause I cant see how it would even be close on penetration) but people say some guides that are around bears carry 12 gauges with granite and benefit of a reputable ammo, the Brenneke USA black magic magnum 3 inch rifles slug. Just in my opinion I would much rather and prefer a rifle of a suitable caliber for grizzly encounter then that. What is your take on that compared to rifles? Please note that I personally am not saying it can or cannot do what they advertise, and I see a lot of people on hunting forums bring that ammo up, just curious on input about that. Thank you either way sir for your time and input on all this, I do highly appreciate it.

Started reloading in 1961 on an RCBS A2 single station press which I still use occasionally today. The only automated loaders available at the time were from Hollywood and Star and they were prodigiously expensive. Way out of my league as a kid. Most of my rifle cartridge reloading is still done on a Redding 'Boss' single station press. Play rounds for .22 Hornet, 5.56mm, .30 Carbine, 7.62x39mm etc I run off on my Dillon 550B. My rule of thumb is if it is a rifle/cartridge combination which I shoot for serious accuracy and groups, it gets loaded on the Boss. Should you elect to start reloading, get a good quality single stage press. You will use it for the rest of your life. Spend your money on the best powder measure, scale, and single station press you can afford, in that order.

The Winchester nickel silver (actually 70% copper, 30% nickel) capped .375 H&H Silvertip bullets had an extremely stout jacket made from 'Lubaloy' (90% copper, 5% zinc, 5% tin) which were hell for strong. The nickel silver tip would not disintegrate the way the later aluminum tips do, so the lead core of the bullet was constrained and would not disintegrate as it went through game. Unfortunately, nickel and tin became very expensive and Olin thrifted the bullet design: aluminum cap and gilding metal (95% copper, 5% zinc) jacket. To be fair to John Olin, Winchester had been getting a lot of flak from light game hunters who were unhappy about the nickel silver capped Silvertips drilling small holes through game. They wanted explosive expansion which the aluminum tipped Silvertips deliver in abundance. But explosive expansion is not what you want on dangerous or tough game.

The .378 Weatherby is a real hot rod cartridge. Its velocity is so high, like most of the other Weatherby cartridges, that it really stresses bullets in tough game. Why Weatherby made Nosler Partitions available in almost all of his cartridges. But .378 Weatherby is really too fast for even the Nosler Partition bullet. So funny things happen when those really fast Weatherby bullets strike tough tissue. Think this situation has improved a lot since 1970 because bullet makers have been in a serious competition to deliver tougher bullets to hunters. But I am caught in the past with the .375 H&H which does everything I need it to do.

I do get a 10 inch twist barrel when I have a custom .375 H&H built. The standard for .375 H&H is 12 inch and the standard twist for .378 Weatherby used to be 14 inch (think it is 12 inch today). The faster 10 inch twist seems to help the bullet retain stability as it drives through tissue. The 12 inch .375 H&H rifles do well, but the 10 inch .375 H&Hs are drills. The British, who hunted a lot of serious game animals in Africa and India were of the opinion that game cartridges should launch a bullet at 2,400 fps - no more and no less. They would select bullet weights which allowed 2,400 fps and these bullet weights would become the only one available for each cartridge. My experience with the .375 H&H says you can go a bit faster than this today and not get in trouble, but I don't know how much faster than that you can go before you get into trouble. Why I stick with the .375 H&H for bigger game. It works, well.

I reload all the cartridges I shoot because - first and foremost - I enjoy reloading. Probably why I relegate the Dillon to pistol cartridges for the most part. When I started reloading, the economics were a huge part of the equation. The economics of reloading fluctuate from year to year, but the fun of reloading does not. Another rationale I had for reloading was some cartridges I shot could not be readily purchased in sporting versions (e.g. 9x19mm Luger, .22-250 Varminter, 7.65x53mm Argentine) when I started loading in 1961. Pretty quickly I realized I could turn out excellent hunting and target loads which rivaled the best factory ammunition. Truthfully, reloading became an ingrained habit. Buy a new gun in a new caliber, get the reloading dies and supplies at the same time. Never looked back, except when a good deal on pistol ammunition presented itself.

It may be hubris, but my .375 H&H loads are very good. I have shot about 20 elk with them and they work every time. My long standing guide always pairs me up with the rookie hunter using a .270 Winchester. Gives me lots of opportunities to make anchoring shots. He, by the way, had me build a .375 H&H for him and load him ammunition after he watched me anchor a poorly shot elk heading into the timber early on in our relationship. It is now the only rifle he owns.

The .30-06 is the cartridge I use for deer and light game in open area hunting, so don't get the impression that you need a .375 H&H for everything, or even most game. There are all kinds of cartridges which work well for deer in Michigan, but these same cartridges just don't work well on bigger critters regardless of bullet selection. Elk, moose, caribou, big bears all crumple with a well placed .375 H&H shot. They often run off when shot with a .270, 7mm, or .300 unless the bullet placement is near perfect. When you take the time and spend the money on a western hunt, you don't want to watch your trophy run off after you shoot it. And even in the open west, game surprises you by popping up in the damndest places. Shot an elk once which was molesting our mule train not 5 minutes after I tied them up so I could work my way down in a draw. That is where the .375 H&H excels.

Shotgun ammunition has improved dramatically since I worked in Alaska in the 1970's. When I was there, no one considered a 12 gauge shotgun acceptable as a bear gun. Now many do, and it certainly reflect well on the slug offerings from ammunition manufacturers. But to me a shotgun is a gas pipe and I reserve them for things flying through the air. When I was there, bear guns were bolt guns in .338 Winchester Magnum (most common), .375 H&H, .458 Winchester, and .35 Whelan. You would see a few 1886 and Model 71 Winchesters, and the reproduction Marlin 1895 in .45-70 had sensational sales up there for a while. The impoverished kept .30-06 or .303 British caliber rifles around with FMJ military ammunition. Understand that there are few actual bear attacks in Alaska, so there is little actual bear killing experience among the general residents. However the hunting guides have a lot of experience and strong opinions. None suggest you bring a shotgun to hunt the big bears. Most want their hunters to bring a .375 H&H minimum, or even better a .416. So there you have it.

RusticCamper
02-28-2015, 05:38 AM
In Reply to : DP425
Essentially, there are so many more factors that these formulas do not account for that their usefulness is questionable.

I do understand your stand point, but I would have to say don’t you agree it is a great starting point if your considering same bullet construction, I.E. a FMJ to FMJ or A frame to A frame and wish to know a start of how one will differ from the next?

Unforunately, to find penetration, you'll have to search. Most hunting bullet manufactures in the rifle calibers don't provide those numbers. There are a lot of people shooting bullets into ballistics gel on youtube though. Another option would be to get the Clear Ballistics gel, find people with rifles chambered in cartridges you are considering, buy the ammo, and conduct your own tests.

I do agree seeing the ballistics gel on youtube is a great way to see how the bullet normally in those conditions expel its energy and the depth of penetration. However maybe I am mistaken, but it does not take into consideration what so ever of bullet impact on thick hides, thick bones, or any other obstructions a bullet may encounter on its due set path. For instance The Fletcher gel tests makes some cartridges appear to have wonderful penetration, however the moment they hit bone, hide, dense muscle the bullet quickly expels all energy and is stopped. I am not disputing that ballistics gel is a good way to see bullet expansion when given the proper media used, however I do have to wonder for instance a 9mm that goes through 14-16 inches of ballistics gel, that scientifically that should not be nowhere near same depth penetration on bear due to media of bones muscle hide and any other variable such as blood. Also I would be interested in a media of showing the bullets deviation as well when striking a dense material. I do appreciate however the point in the direction on following up its penetration.

You haven't been around the typical hunter very much then have you? LOL Most of them I've run across consider 150 yards a "long shot"... and the sad thing is, they will tell you 150 yards is actually closer to 300... but they won't be BSing- they will actually believe it. Most hunters shoot far less than a box of ammo a year. Very few will EVER clean the bore of their rifle. Basically, I don't know what your capabilities and understanding of your own limitations are. Many people will chose caliber over shot placement; that's why I made those comments. if it's not for your benefit, perhaps one of those guys that hunt deer with a.300 Rem Ultra Mag might see it and a light go off "Wait, there is a such thing as "too much gun?"

I have heard the slight or over emphasized distance of perhaps a hunter said to have shot an animal to actual distance. I just always have listened, picked things up, then researched. I do agree some may embellish a bit on a hunt story, but if I wasn’t there then I cannot comfortably say its not true. I do agree with you point strongly that accuracy of any caliber choice should never negate due to power chosen by a shooter, hunting or competition lol. I don’t want to get off on subject and if you have not (I will also check) but perhaps there should be a thread regarding accuracy and ethical clean shooting when hunting. I would agree some calibers would be a poor choice (in sense cause your ruining more the meat) that although a large caliber i.e. a 50 cal BMG will kill a deer, it definitely would not be my choice, simply due to overpower and ruining meat. However I am sure every hunter has a different perception, I just always hope any animal is killed as quickly and as efficiently as possible, with the added hope that every part of a animal to be used. As I say, every hunter or person may have a different view.

I've posted a number of links about wound mechanics, terminal ballistics and hydrostatic shock before; a few others have as well. But, it seems no matter how often they are posted, a lot of people either ignore them or don't believe it. It's hard to convince someone that their 30 years of empirical evidence is false. Just look at the pistol caliber debate. How many people are still holding on to that BS about .45 ACP being superior and a "one shot man stopper"? A lot of those guys are beyond help- but perhaps a few will read and study up... and come to understand that you don't need a 120mm main gun with HEAT rounds for deer... and all standard pistol cartridges suck equally.

I am not in no way shape or form disregarding you posting the links on any other forum. I unfortunately have not had the chance to still read all the threads, I was just addressing to this post that it was posted. I understand some people do rely on empirical, some rely on word of mouth, some experience, some data sheet factual (unfortunately I will admit I tend to always want to see it on a formula, chart, or in a equation to understand it that much more in depth). Pistol rounds in my opinion are a second to none option personaly. I cant think of any instance I would not rather a rifle or shotgun compared to a pistol. What is practical is different from what I would rather though lol. The .45 ACP to my understand is a great round, along with any other pistol cartridge the dictates the shooter can place accurate concise shots every time. I have heard the “one shot man stopper” theory, that I will leave to others to debate. I will say however my first pistol was a variant that shot a .45 ACP however I ended up switching to the 9mm due to ammo price, and it holds more in the magazine. However my next choice I will be buying will be 44 magnum, simply cause I rather a magnum when fishing in backwoods compared to other calibers. Just a preference again, from research lately the 44 magnum suits my needs more than other calibers.


Well, here is the problem. That calculator does not take bullet composition into consideration at all. Toss a brass solid in the .375 and a lighter, rapidly expanding bullet into the .338LM and you're going to see a remarkable difference- the .338LM will be devastating to the point of ruining a LOT of meat. The .375 H&H will likely be a full pass through with very little additional damage unless the bullet strikes a bone hard enough to induce a significant yaw. But you're still missing out on the energy transfer needed to cause massive shock.

I do agree bullet construction will change the result of how it will react once it arrives to the target. I was just in more search of .338 vs 375 same bullet construction, what differs from one to the next. Why do people choose one over the other. What benefits and negatives do each offer. I understand some factors will not be able to be added in for example the as you say energy transfer, as due to that alone could rely on the bullet construction. In addition I have done plenty of reading up on the link you and others have sent and some additional.

In truth, I think many of the calibers being mentioned on here are over-kill if you can place reasonably accurate shots... and are not talking about dropping game at 400-500 yards. .338LM, .375H&H... even .300WM... a regular old .308, .270 or .30-06, using proper ammunition and accurate shot placement is sufficient to take any game in Michigan... and likely, the entire US. Again... assuming you're talking typical distances. I mean, even out west the guides try to get you within 200-300 yards of your target. There is zero need for a .338LM under those conditions.

I would agree to a certain extent before I have a question or input on this of possibility. I own a 30-06 and over the years and seeing information on it and seeing and hear from what people have hunted and cleanly killed I would say yes that most likely is the only rifle I will ever need in North America. However from here: http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=kodiakbear.kodiakfaqs
14. • What is the best rifle to use for brown bear hunting?
Most experienced hunters consider a .30-06 rifle with a 180 grain soft-nosed bullet to be the smallest effective caliber for Kodiak brown bears. The .300 mag, .338 mag., and .375 mag. are popular and well-suited calibers. A waterproof rifle stock is also beneficial during a Kodiak hunt.

Only reason I would feel the 30-06 would perhaps not be what I choose is due to :experienced hunters, Yes I am accurate with my 30-06, but I have never hunted bear, and videos and teachers, instructors, guides can teach in a great way everything you should know, but I would say with factors such as nerves and excitement or adrenaline in short, I would rather the caliber that offers a little more oomph behind it. Not cause im not confident on accuracy with the 30-06, I just prefer the reassurance of the listed calibers above and power instead. If I was maybe native and grew up around their my whole life and seen how bears are and how they act when hunting, I too would say yes the 30-06 is fine. I hope that makes sense, and I am not saying take risky shots or anything on that.

Either way that shotgun round I talked about I will send the link, http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/blackmagic.html , also please note that it is hardened lead. What would be your thoughts on it and what would you prefer? I apologize on the length of this message, but I did want to full address each piece of information you offered to me. Thank you as well.

RusticCamper
02-28-2015, 08:01 AM
Started reloading in 1961 on an RCBS A2 single station press which I still use occasionally today. The only automated loaders available at the time were from Hollywood and Star and they were prodigiously expensive. Way out of my league as a kid. Most of my rifle cartridge reloading is still done on a Redding 'Boss' single station press. Play rounds for .22 Hornet, 5.56mm, .30 Carbine, 7.62x39mm etc I run off on my Dillon 550B. My rule of thumb is if it is a rifle/cartridge combination which I shoot for serious accuracy and groups, it gets loaded on the Boss. Should you elect to start reloading, get a good quality single stage press. You will use it for the rest of your life. Spend your money on the best powder measure, scale, and single station press you can afford, in that order.

The Winchester nickel silver (actually 70% copper, 30% nickel) capped .375 H&H Silvertip bullets had an extremely stout jacket made from 'Lubaloy' (90% copper, 5% zinc, 5% tin) which were hell for strong. The nickel silver tip would not disintegrate the way the later aluminum tips do, so the lead core of the bullet was constrained and would not disintegrate as it went through game. Unfortunately, nickel and tin became very expensive and Olin thrifted the bullet design: aluminum cap and gilding metal (95% copper, 5% zinc) jacket. To be fair to John Olin, Winchester had been getting a lot of flak from light game hunters who were unhappy about the nickel silver capped Silvertips drilling small holes through game. They wanted explosive expansion which the aluminum tipped Silvertips deliver in abundance. But explosive expansion is not what you want on dangerous or tough game.

The .378 Weatherby is a real hot rod cartridge. Its velocity is so high, like most of the other Weatherby cartridges, that it really stresses bullets in tough game. Why Weatherby made Nosler Partitions available in almost all of his cartridges. But .378 Weatherby is really too fast for even the Nosler Partition bullet. So funny things happen when those really fast Weatherby bullets strike tough tissue. Think this situation has improved a lot since 1970 because bullet makers have been in a serious competition to deliver tougher bullets to hunters. But I am caught in the past with the .375 H&H which does everything I need it to do.

I do get a 10 inch twist barrel when I have a custom .375 H&H built. The standard for .375 H&H is 12 inch and the standard twist for .378 Weatherby used to be 14 inch (think it is 12 inch today). The faster 10 inch twist seems to help the bullet retain stability as it drives through tissue. The 12 inch .375 H&H rifles do well, but the 10 inch .375 H&Hs are drills. The British, who hunted a lot of serious game animals in Africa and India were of the opinion that game cartridges should launch a bullet at 2,400 fps - no more and no less. They would select bullet weights which allowed 2,400 fps and these bullet weights would become the only one available for each cartridge. My experience with the .375 H&H says you can go a bit faster than this today and not get in trouble, but I don't know how much faster than that you can go before you get into trouble. Why I stick with the .375 H&H for bigger game. It works, well.

I reload all the cartridges I shoot because - first and foremost - I enjoy reloading. Probably why I relegate the Dillon to pistol cartridges for the most part. When I started reloading, the economics were a huge part of the equation. The economics of reloading fluctuate from year to year, but the fun of reloading does not. Another rationale I had for reloading was some cartridges I shot could not be readily purchased in sporting versions (e.g. 9x19mm Luger, .22-250 Varminter, 7.65x53mm Argentine) when I started loading in 1961. Pretty quickly I realized I could turn out excellent hunting and target loads which rivaled the best factory ammunition. Truthfully, reloading became an ingrained habit. Buy a new gun in a new caliber, get the reloading dies and supplies at the same time. Never looked back, except when a good deal on pistol ammunition presented itself.

It may be hubris, but my .375 H&H loads are very good. I have shot about 20 elk with them and they work every time. My long standing guide always pairs me up with the rookie hunter using a .270 Winchester. Gives me lots of opportunities to make anchoring shots. He, by the way, had me build a .375 H&H for him and load him ammunition after he watched me anchor a poorly shot elk heading into the timber early on in our relationship. It is now the only rifle he owns.

The .30-06 is the cartridge I use for deer and light game in open area hunting, so don't get the impression that you need a .375 H&H for everything, or even most game. There are all kinds of cartridges which work well for deer in Michigan, but these same cartridges just don't work well on bigger critters regardless of bullet selection. Elk, moose, caribou, big bears all crumple with a well placed .375 H&H shot. They often run off when shot with a .270, 7mm, or .300 unless the bullet placement is near perfect. When you take the time and spend the money on a western hunt, you don't want to watch your trophy run off after you shoot it. And even in the open west, game surprises you by popping up in the damndest places. Shot an elk once which was molesting our mule train not 5 minutes after I tied them up so I could work my way down in a draw. That is where the .375 H&H excels.

Shotgun ammunition has improved dramatically since I worked in Alaska in the 1970's. When I was there, no one considered a 12 gauge shotgun acceptable as a bear gun. Now many do, and it certainly reflect well on the slug offerings from ammunition manufacturers. But to me a shotgun is a gas pipe and I reserve them for things flying through the air. When I was there, bear guns were bolt guns in .338 Winchester Magnum (most common), .375 H&H, .458 Winchester, and .35 Whelan. You would see a few 1886 and Model 71 Winchesters, and the reproduction Marlin 1895 in .45-70 had sensational sales up there for a while. The impoverished kept .30-06 or .303 British caliber rifles around with FMJ military ammunition. Understand that there are few actual bear attacks in Alaska, so there is little actual bear killing experience among the general residents. However the hunting guides have a lot of experience and strong opinions. None suggest you bring a shotgun to hunt the big bears. Most want their hunters to bring a .375 H&H minimum, or even better a .416. So there you have it.

In response to: 10x25mm

I most likely will venture onto reloading as like the idea and concept of it. I also would I am positive enjoy it as a hobby. I will definitely look up some good single stage press’s, I know lee had a whole single stage kit but I would like to do more research on it and look through the reloading forum as well on what people like as well. What is your thoughts on the Lee precision breach lock kit or anniversary? Either way before I dive into that I still would like to finish 3-4 books on reloading so I can expand knowledge into that area before starting, I just don’t want to make any critical mistakes.

That is interesting on Winchesters difference between silver tip, but I see what you mean by if the hunting market was criticizing issues with the original load that it could make any ammunition manufacture doctor up a different formula to meet the more demand of the majority of hunters. Seems kind of a shame at the same time as some hunters probably were perfectly happy with the results of the old compared to the new. However least it assures another reason on why reloading is great as you stated, to be able to make better cartridges. I assume also you can taylor them along with the caliber to more of what your preference and intentions are.

Whenever I see or read on Roy Weatherby, this paragraph about him is interesting, Weatherby came into the world of commercial cartridge and rifle making with a background of experimentation in cartridge wildcatting and was determined to develop a range of sporting rifle cartridges that would produce very high muzzle velocities, high bullet energies, very flat trajectories, and very hard-hitting characteristics at long range. Seems like his ideas and thoughts were even ahead of the ammunition manufactures in some ways. The 375 H&H does seem to be a great caliber from more I research on it, and if it fits all your needs, why fix it right?

I still would like to dive more in depth on effects of rifling and different calibers along with how it chooses to make a caliber differ. If you know any good literature or a link on the forums for suggestions on where to start to get better understanding please if you don’t mind post the link. I am assuming your .375 H&H is custom built to every part up, or was it done from a company? Sounds nice either way, someday I am sure I will end up going down that road. Right now I am still to new lol. I read on wiki from some loadings on it the following: “With relatively light bullets in the region of 235 to 270 grains (15 to 17 g), it is a flat-shooting, fairly long-range cartridge ideal for use on light to medium game, whereas with heavy bullets of 300 grains (19 g) and greater, it has the punch necessary for large, thick-skinned dangerous game. “ Seems like a pretty nice overall rifle in the right conditions.



I see why you would have pride then in reloading for that caliber. On the knowledge you have shared I do see why he had you build him his 375 H&H and load the ammunition. Whatever caliber/manufacture I decide I will be sure to post it for some feedback to get some insight on that choice. Also seeing as you have had a lot of dealing with the 375 H&H, does any companys stick out in your mind if you were buying one? I would prefer a non wood stock. I know it is more on the question of reloading more, but do you cast your own bullets, any information on positives or negatives on that?

The 30-06 is a favorite of mine, as to surprisingly that was my first rifle. I had shot other calibers at the time before I got that one, but the 30-06 was a family gift. I understand, there may be different and more practical or better choices of rifle calibers for the smaller game instead of the 375 H&H. I assume in my life I will own many different rifles and other firearms. On the note about larger game, you do raise concerns I had on why I looked into a larger caliber rifle then the 30-06. Especially when planning on a guide assisted hunt, where like you say, the cost alone is expensive but worth it, I just don’t want to bring a caliber that’s “good enough” I rather a caliber I can use perfectly, and is acceptable for minor error not on the shooters part. Hope that makes sense. My worst fear is bringing a caliber that dint have enough power behind it to hit and not deviate. I would rather a bullet that stays on course even when encountering dense material inside.

I have seen the .35 Whelan pop up multiple times on different guns guides also enjoy. According to female and male weights, I can completely understand why they suggest .375 at minimum, or move on up. I do not fear ever any animal attack, I just would like to know what I have next to me for defense is a good choice. Bear mace seemed like a great choice, but I read a couple horror stories of the wind catching the mace and drifting it back. I don’t know how true that is cause that mace propels out with authority. Either way I would rather have a rifle still, more of a peace of mind thing. Someday getting the privilege of being able to hunt there would be great, even if I don’t get one id still love to go. However before hunting bear, any input on how bear meat taste? There is some great recipes out there and on here. Thank you greatly sir on all the information you have taken time to contribute to me along with others. I definitely feel I have a way better grasp on this caliber debate in general. Again thank you , and thanks to everyone.