HB 4419 Eliminate sentencing requirement for firearm conviction

[Tallbear]

HB 4419 of 2015 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2015-HB-4419)
Criminal procedure; sentencing; 2-year mandatory sentencing requirement for felony firearm conviction; eliminate. Amends sec. 227b of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.227b).
Last Action: 4/14/2015 referred to Committee on Judiciary

[zigziggityzoo]

I would hope this would go through, but it probably wont.

This is a dumb law.

[G22]

They just revised/added mandatory sentencing 'requirements' when they eliminated the gun boards...

Idiots.

[45 acp]

I would hope this would go through, but it probably wont.

This is a dumb law.
Why?

I Think that someone that uses a firearm to commit or attempts to commit a Felony SHOULD serve a mandatory 2 year sentence for the first offence and a mandatory 5 year sentence for the second offence and if they still have not learned a mandatory 10 year sentence for the third offence.

I believe in locking people up for using guns to commit crimes what I do not believe in is gun laws that restrict the 2nd amendment to the United States Constitution.

[zigziggityzoo]

Why?

I Think that someone that uses a firearm to commit or attempts to commit a Felony SHOULD serve a mandatory 2 year sentence for the first offence and a mandatory 5 year sentence for the second offence and if they still have not learned a mandatory 10 year sentence for the third offence.

I believe in locking people up for using guns to commit crimes what I do not believe in is gun laws that restrict the 2nd amendment to the United States Constitution.

Is the felony they committed more bad because they had a gun on them?

[zigziggityzoo]

If they use the gun to assault someone, charge them with assault with a deadly weapon. But the mere presence of a gun, by itself, should not make a larceny or a robbery "more bad".

[45 acp]

If they use the gun to assault someone, charge them with assault with a deadly weapon. But the mere presence of a gun, by itself, should not make a larceny or a robbery "more bad".

I agree with you. But if someone commits a robbery with a knife they are charged with armed robbery.
However if they use a firearm they also are charged with armed robbery. The prosecutor can also add the firearms enhancement charge.

What usually happens is a plea bargain where the prosecutor will drop the firearms enhancement charge with the mandatory sentence in exchange for a guilty plea for the armed robbery charge.

This was added as a way of mandatory sentencing for people that use guns to commit crimes. and it has actually become a tool for plea bargains.

Yes I believe that using a gun to commit a crime should be a crime with mandatory penalties.

[Leader]

I agree with you. But if someone commits a robbery with a knife they are charged with armed robbery.
However if they use a firearm they also are charged with armed robbery. The prosecutor can also add the firearms enhancement charge.

What usually happens is a plea bargain where the prosecutor will drop the firearms enhancement charge with the mandatory sentence in exchange for a guilty plea for the armed robbery charge.

This was added as a way of mandatory sentencing for people that use guns to commit crimes. and it has actually become a tool for plea bargains.

Yes I believe that using a gun to commit a crime should be a crime with mandatory penalties.

Then do you also agree that a crime committed with a knife or a baseball bat should have mandatory penalties?
How is one worse then the other?

Actually I think the baseball bat is worst.

BTW Ziggy... It isn't "more bad", it's "badder".

[zigziggityzoo]

Then do you also agree that a crime committed with a knife or a baseball bat should have mandatory penalties?
How is one worse then the other?

Actually I think the baseball bat is worst.

BTW Ziggy... It isn't "more bad", it's "badder".

Actually it's "worse" :)

[Leader]

Actually it's "worse" :)

Only in "English", not hillbilly.

[zigziggityzoo]

I agree with you. But if someone commits a robbery with a knife they are charged with armed robbery.
However if they use a firearm they also are charged with armed robbery. The prosecutor can also add the firearms enhancement charge.

What usually happens is a plea bargain where the prosecutor will drop the firearms enhancement charge with the mandatory sentence in exchange for a guilty plea for the armed robbery charge.

This was added as a way of mandatory sentencing for people that use guns to commit crimes. and it has actually become a tool for plea bargains.

Yes I believe that using a gun to commit a crime should be a crime with mandatory penalties.

I still can't see how using a gun to commit a crime is worse than committing the same crime with a sword, an explosive, or some other deadly weapon.

I also don't like the notion of "mandatory minimums." The legislature has no right to remove judicial discretion. It is antithetical to the three-branch system. Punishment should fit the individual set of circumstances.

I ALSO don't like the notion of having tack-on charges to encourage plea-bargaining. It is an abortion of the judicial process and causes individuals to feel forced to give up their right to trial by taking the guaranteed alternative, even if they are innocent.

[luckless]

Why?

I Think that someone that uses a firearm to commit or attempts to commit a Felony SHOULD serve a mandatory 2 year sentence for the first offence and a mandatory 5 year sentence for the second offence and if they still have not learned a mandatory 10 year sentence for the third offence.

I believe in locking people up for using guns to commit crimes what I do not believe in is gun laws that restrict the 2nd amendment to the United States Constitution.
Would this law stop the judge from handing down a two year sentence or just allow the judge more leeway to fit the punishment to the crime?

[45 acp]

Then do you also agree that a crime committed with a knife or a baseball bat should have mandatory penalties?
How is one worse then the other?

Actually I think the baseball bat is worst.

BTW Ziggy... It isn't "more bad", it's "badder".




The Democrats want to make laws pertaining to guns that infringe on our rights to own guns. All in the name of keeping guns out of the hands of criminals.
I am saying we should lock up the criminals to keep their hands away from guns.

[Leader]

The Democrats want to make laws pertaining to guns that infringe on our rights to own guns. All in the name of keeping guns out of the hands of criminals.
I am saying we should lock up the criminals to keep their hands away from guns.

But should we have mandatory sentencing for crimes committed with knives or baseball bats?

[45 acp]

But should we have mandatory sentencing for crimes committed with knives or baseball bats?

When the government wants to pass laws that infringe on my right to have knives and / or baseball bats in the name of reducing crime, I will be the first one to suggest that we have mandatory extra sentencing to lock up criminals that use knives and / or baseball bats in the commission of a crime.

[Leader]

When the government wants to pass laws that infringe on my right to have knives and / or baseball bats in the name of reducing crime, I will be the first one to suggest that we have mandatory extra sentencing to lock up criminals that use knives and / or baseball bats in the commission of a crime.

So.... In your mind it is ok for me to carve up your daughter with a knife but if I have a gun in my pocket when I write a bad check I need to go to prison for 2 years on top of any other sentence?

[langenc]

Actually it's "worse" :)

I prefer "worser" cause I think that is more better.

[MP Miller]

Place an unloaded cased pistol on the back seat of your car.....

Mandatory 2 years in prison for CCW.

[zigziggityzoo]

Place an unloaded cased pistol on the back seat of your car.....

Mandatory 2 years in prison for CCW.

On top of whatever you get for CCW, which could be 5 years on its own.

So a victimless crime nets you 2+5 years and literally no one is harmed.

[Leader]

On top of whatever you get for CCW, which could be 5 years on its own.

So a victimless crime nets you 2+5 years and literally no one is harmed.

Zig, Are you saying you think 7 years in prison & a felony record that follows you for the rest of your life is a bit much for something that is legal in a lot of states?

[sevenx57]

I agree with you. But if someone commits a robbery with a knife they are charged with armed robbery.
However if they use a firearm they also are charged with armed robbery. The prosecutor can also add the firearms enhancement charge.

What usually happens is a plea bargain where the prosecutor will drop the firearms enhancement charge with the mandatory sentence in exchange for a guilty plea for the armed robbery charge.

This was added as a way of mandatory sentencing for people that use guns to commit crimes. and it has actually become a tool for plea bargains.

Yes I believe that using a gun to commit a crime should be a crime with mandatory penalties.


So if we just had enough laws, we could charge anyone with enough crimes so that we could always get then to plead guilty to something. I do not know what to calls this, but it is wrong.

[jgillmanjr]

Would this law stop the judge from handing down a two year sentence or just allow the judge more leeway to fit the punishment to the crime?

It would give the court discretion in sentencing.

Mandatory fines/suspension/revocation of CPL for failing to "immediately" disclose was also added to 28.425f with SB 34 - previously there was discretion. MOC tried getting Green to change this, but to no avail.

[luckless]

So Green is probably opposed to this, no surprise. Do we have any allies in key positions in the legislature, in your opinion? Our concerns seem to be going nowhere, fast.

[midlandshooter]

I still can't see how using a gun to commit a crime is worse than committing the same crime with a sword, an explosive, or some other deadly weapon.

I also don't like the notion of "mandatory minimums." The legislature has no right to remove judicial discretion. It is antithetical to the three-branch system. Punishment should fit the individual set of circumstances.

I ALSO don't like the notion of having tack-on charges to encourage plea-bargaining. It is an abortion of the judicial process and causes individuals to feel forced to give up their right to trial by taking the guaranteed alternative, even if they are innocent.

AGREED.

[jgillmanjr]

So Green is probably opposed to this, no surprise. Do we have any allies in key positions in the legislature, in your opinion? Our concerns seem to be going nowhere, fast.

Well, the nice thing about this bill is that there are quite a few co-sponsors, and the sponsor (Kurt Heise) is the chair of the House Criminal Justice Committee.

Not saying that alone will mean this gets movement, BUT, it would make me believe that this won't just get dismissed because he isn't liked (I highly doubt you would become a committee chair if the speaker didn't like you).

[Leader]

It would give the court discretion in sentencing.

Mandatory fines/suspension/revocation of CPL for failing to "immediately" disclose was also added to 28.425f with SB 34 - previously there was discretion. MOC tried getting Green to change this, but to no avail.


How did Green justify NOT supporting this?
What does he see as a valid reason for even having disclosure?

[jgillmanjr]

How did Green justify NOT supporting this?
What does he see as a valid reason for even having disclosure?

I have no idea.

If I had to guess, it was probably due to skittishness of possibly giving the guv a reason to veto.

Really not sure though.

[MP Miller]

Mandatory sentences are ALWAYS bad

[Tallbear]

HB 4419 of 2015
Criminal procedure; sentencing; 2-year mandatory sentencing requirement for felony firearm conviction; eliminate. Amends sec. 227b of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.227b).
Last Action: 4/21/2015 recommendation concurred in

[45/70fan]

"Worsen" is hillbilly.

[Roundballer]

And "hillbilly" has a word source/history/etymology from the early 1800's meaning a MICHIGAN rural or backwoods bumpkin. A MICHIGAN potato farmer.

And your point would be? :cheers:

[G22]

My buddy's uncle who lives just west of Ossineke grows the BEST redskin potatoes you'll ever eat, but I have no idea what his stance on eliminating sentencing requirements for firearm convictions is! :)

[Tallbear]

HB 4419 of 2015
Criminal procedure; sentencing; 2-year mandatory sentencing requirement for felony firearm conviction; eliminate. Amends sec. 227b of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.227b).
Last Action: 6/16/2015 referred to second reading

[Tallbear]

HB 4419 of 2015
Criminal procedure; sentencing; 2-year mandatory sentencing requirement for felony firearm conviction; eliminate. Amends sec. 227b of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.227b).
Last Action: 6/16/2015 referred to second reading