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jci63
12-09-2008, 12:55 PM
Attention:


PIGEON RIVER DEBACLE

There will be a Senate Appropriations Committee hearing regarding the P.R. on Dec. 10th at 9:30 AM in Lansing. This hearing is chaired by Michelle McManus. Our horse friends will have some key people there to represent ALL of us on this issue. This hearing will be held at the Capital in the Senate Appropriations Room on the third floor.

Please go to this hearing if at all possible
and make a show of support!

This is about all of our user rights on public lands.
Please show up early if you care to exchange your ideas and thoughts on this matter.

Riders say they're being locked out of the Pigeon River Country


Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:06 PM EDT



Dick Kleinhardt stops at one of 800 new posts in the Pigeon River Country designating trails as closed to horseback riding.




Legislators take ride into 'forest' conflict

By Benjamin K. Slocum

Journalism intern




Vanderbilt — The Pigeon River Country may be a sanctuary for most but it’s becoming a battleground for others.



Following new guidelines from the state Dept. of Natural Resources (DNR), Pigeon River Country (PRC) users, especially horseback riders, are finding increased restrictions and scrutiny toward their activities.

Dick Klienhardt, a dairy farmer from Clare, and Rand G. Smith, an attorney from Brown City, recently hosted state Reps. Kevin Elsenheimer, R-Kewadin, and Tom Casperson, R-Escanaba, in the PRC.

During the meeting Klienhardt and Smith outlined their concerns over the diminishing access to the area.

“I feel our group is particularly targeted,” Klienhardt said. “I’ve ridden here for 25 years, now hundreds of miles of trails are gone. There were 15 remote campsites scattered all over the Pigeon, now only 10 are left.”

The Michigan Trail Riders Association (MTRA) has put in hundreds of volunteer hours as well as club funds to build and maintain equestrian facilities in the PRC. With the new restrictions the “MTRA are being locked out of the Pigeon by the gates that they put up,” Klienhardt said.

The concerns, however, run deeper than just use of the land; they include both the natural and cultural history behind it.

“Tonight we’re teaching my nephew how to cook quail over an open fire in a cardboard box,” Rand explained. “We bring our youth. It’s tradition, it’s teaching.”

The new restrictions are being brought by “A Concept of Management for the Pigeon River Country,” a 2007 update to the 1973 guidelines for managing the PRC.

In the document the DNR outlines criteria for recreational use, management and enforcement in the PRC. Issues focusing specifically on horses are land degradation, user conflict and horse droppings bringing noxious weeds into the PRC.

Laurie Marzolo, DNR acting manager for the PRC, explained the reasoning behind the increasing limitations. “We were aware of conflict of uses in the PRC, as well as invasive plant species,” she indicated. “There are two spots with garlic mustard, and it’s pretty clear that one of the areas came from horses.”

The PRC sees more visitors per year per acre than any other parcel of state land. Although it may not seem like there is much impact yet, the DNR is “trying to be proactive,” Marzolo explained, “instead of waiting until there is a problem.”

Riders claim there is little to no impact on the land from their horses. They cite a 2005 study from Dominican University of California showing that although some plants may survive a horses digestive system, noxious weeds are not included.

As for conflicts with other groups, Klienhardt said, “I’ve never noticed a conflict. It was always nice ‘hey, how you doin’?’ and ‘hello.’”

These new restrictions are making it harder for riders to justify making the trek to Northern Michigan.

“They want us to ride on roads with cars and logging trucks. I can do that anywhere, I don’t need to come up here,” said Sally Oburg, a regular to the forest from White Lake.

The economic impact in the area could be substantial, especially considering the weak economy.

“I just spent $130 in fuel and groceries in Vanderbilt, and when I leave, I’ll do it again,” Klienhardt said. “Each trailer spends around $200 a weekend. That can be big bucks in the area over six months of the year. Don’t give up tourism and economic possibilities without good reason.”

With between 40 and 50 horse trailers a weekend in the PRC, the economic possibilities quickly add up. Representative Kevin Elsenheimer finds the potential economic loss to the area troubling.

“It’s the reason I’m here,” Elsenheimer said. “I’m not only invited, but I know how important this land is to the economy. It concerns me; it should concern all of us. We have to protect not only the land, but our rights to use it.”

Marzolo said that “the DNR had open meetings available for public comment. Stores in Vanderbilt expressed concern over lost revenue, as well as other user groups concerns on their interests.”

She continued by explaining that the discussion with the public on impending changes had taken place over the last year, and that the comments were taken into account when the new Concept of Management was adopted.

The riders understand the need to protect the land, but they say they haven’t been shown justification for the actions. They don’t feel that their voices were heard during the DNR forums.

“We want accountability from the DNR. We know they have to protect the environment, but we want them to say why actions took place,” Klienhardt said. “They won’t discuss it. It’s a done deal.”

Elsenheimer doesn’t see the reason behind the actions either. “I double and triple check everything that comes from the DNR. I’m always cautious.”

As the riders feel the impact of the new restrictions they’ll continue to make their voices heard.

“There is no where else like this,” Klienhardt said. “We understand it’s about preserving the land, but it’s also about preserving our history and culture.”

http://www.gaylordheraldtimes.com/ar...d403754089.txt

DodgeBoy
12-14-2008, 09:59 AM
Good. They kicked us snowmobilers out and I hope they keep the horses out. We do less damage then the horses do. Horses leave **** and hay EVERYWHERE, all roads and two tracks are destroyed from them, trying to drive down there in a truck will rattle your teeth out. I hope they kick horses out of the pigeon FOREVER.

RSF
12-14-2008, 11:14 AM
Manure and hay are biodegradeable and are eaten by critters and such get over it.. rather deal with horses than sleds and quads..... wonder why i sold my sled's off

DodgeBoy
12-15-2008, 07:41 AM
Manure and hay are biodegradeable and are eaten by critters and such get over it.. rather deal with horses than sleds and quads..... wonder why i sold my sled's off

Quads were never allowed in the pigeon. I understand that manure and hay are biodegradeable, but when I want to camp somewhere - I shouldn't have to clean up someone elses mess. They should clean up their own mess :fur3:. Secondly, snowmobiles don't DESTROY every road and two track they venture down, like horses. During hunting season in the forest this year I damn near rattled my brand new truck apart driving through all of the divots in the road from horses.:banghead:

RSF
12-15-2008, 08:49 AM
good.get a better truck

who dat
12-15-2008, 10:36 AM
Good. They kicked us snowmobilers out and I hope they keep the horses out. We do less damage then the horses do. Horses leave **** and hay EVERYWHERE, all roads and two tracks are destroyed from them, trying to drive down there in a truck will rattle your teeth out. I hope they kick horses out of the pigeon FOREVER.
From the article:


The Michigan Trail Riders Association (MTRA) has put in hundreds of volunteer hours as well as club funds to build and maintain equestrian facilities in the PRC. With the new restrictions the “MTRA are being locked out of the Pigeon by the gates that they put up,” Klienhardt said.

Did the snowmobilers help build the trail? Prolly not.

DodgeBoy
12-16-2008, 10:25 PM
good.get a better truck

I think I will just mow down some horses with my current one and irradicate the Varmints. Aside from that, a better truck is not an option #1 because mine is brand new, and #2 because it is a ****ing road!!!!! Not a horse trail.


From the article:


The Michigan Trail Riders Association (MTRA) has put in hundreds of volunteer hours as well as club funds to build and maintain equestrian facilities in the PRC. With the new restrictions the “MTRA are being locked out of the Pigeon by the gates that they put up,” Klienhardt said.

Did the snowmobilers help build the trail? Prolly not.

Equestrian facilities = Campgrounds. That is nothing but a line of BS, them claiming that they are doing something other than cleaning up the campsites that they frequent, so that the campsites are more appealing for them to HOG them. Some of them will go to a campsite and leave a trailer there for a month! :bfg: I don't know whether you are familiar with the pigeon or not, but there are not trails being "built" - only existing ones, and if you would like to get technical, our group always carries large handsaw's so that we can clear downed trees out of the trails - so I would say we do at least clean the trails, and we don't leave a mess behind us either. I can't even begin to explain how much **** I have to clean up every year out of my yearly deer hunting campsite from all of these horseback riders.

RSF
12-16-2008, 11:26 PM
You dont own them there not your camp sites get over yourself...

and im so sure your there when ever the horse crew is up there doing there work as well...

DodgeBoy
12-17-2008, 07:45 AM
You dont own them there not your camp sites get over yourself...

and im so sure your there when ever the horse crew is up there doing there work as well...

I never said I did own them did I? But neither do they. We are talking about a PUBLIC area and nobody should be able to camp at a certain site for over a two week period. These campsites are for all of us to enjoy, just because you have a horse doesn't make you special. On top of that, someone should actually be there for the entirety that they have a trailer parked there. I don't believe I am being unreasonable here, to me you just sound like a grumpy old man with a group of kids that stepped on your grass. Sounds like we are beating a dead horse here (for lack of better terms), because you and I obviously have different beliefs.

Secondly, no I am not there. But I do spend a good portion of my hunting season cleaning up after these people - not to mention the countless donations I & many friends have made to the Pigeon River, and the trail clearing that our group does in the winter. We do 10x The work that any person by horse, or vehicle could do due to the fact that many trails are inaccessible by truck, and horses do not move nearly as fast as we can. The point is that when you are a few miles into the deep stuff on a horse or in a truck, you are going to start looking for a way out because it has taken you so long to get where you are. On a sled, that same distance may take me 15 minutes to accomplish, where as it may take a person in a vehicle or on horseback an hour. I feel that this is how many trails remain cleared wayyy back in the woods.

who dat
12-17-2008, 08:42 AM
I never said I did own them did I? But neither do they. We are talking about a PUBLIC area and nobody should be able to camp at a certain site for over a two week period. These campsites are for all of us to enjoy, just because you have a horse doesn't make you special. On top of that, someone should actually be there for the entirety that they have a trailer parked there. I don't believe I am being unreasonable here, to me you just sound like a grumpy old man with a group of kids that stepped on your grass. Sounds like we are beating a dead horse here (for lack of better terms), because you and I obviously have different beliefs.

Secondly, no I am not there. But I do spend a good portion of my hunting season cleaning up after these people - not to mention the countless donations I & many friends have made to the Pigeon River, and the trail clearing that our group does in the winter. We do 10x The work that any person by horse, or vehicle could do due to the fact that many trails are inaccessible by truck, and horses do not move nearly as fast as we can. The point is that when you are a few miles into the deep stuff on a horse or in a truck, you are going to start looking for a way out because it has taken you so long to get where you are. On a sled, that same distance may take me 15 minutes to accomplish, where as it may take a person in a vehicle or on horseback an hour. I feel that this is how many trails remain cleared wayyy back in the woods.You need to learn to share.

DodgeBoy
12-17-2008, 08:59 AM
You need to learn to share.

Are you wearing a set of horse blinders?

who dat
12-17-2008, 09:05 AM
Are you wearing a set of horse blinders?
No. Are you wearing ear protection for all the noise you guys make?

DodgeBoy
12-17-2008, 09:08 AM
No. Are you wearing ear protection for all the noise you guys make?

No. We don't make any more noise than a vehicle passing through.

who dat
12-17-2008, 09:10 AM
No. We don't make any more noise than a vehicle passing through.
You have got to be kidding.

DodgeBoy
12-17-2008, 09:18 AM
You have got to be kidding.

Nope. Aside from that, does it matter how much noise we make? Deer & Other wildlife startle over almost anything. I startle as many deer with my sled as I do when I am out for a jog in the woods. The only animals that really don't seem to care we are there are Elk, they stand and watch us pass by. Point is that horses distub just as much wildlife as we or any other vehicle does. I think that you are thinking that we are the group of guys at the gas station with twin pipes and straight through silencers that will make your ear drums bleed - Not so. I ride a 4-stoke sled, you want to talk about quiet?

RSF
12-17-2008, 09:54 AM
LOL i dont even own a horse...... and far froma grumpy old man jsut liek to kick internet retards who think they have to right to everything i can Nag about you as much and your sleds as you do horses... but then again i set enough sled traps in my day as the sled retards used to tresspass on my land a lot... i loved watching them end over and lose tracks.

DodgeBoy
12-17-2008, 10:03 AM
LOL i dont even own a horse...... and far froma grumpy old man jsut liek to kick internet retards who think they have to right to everything i can Nag about you as much and your sleds as you do horses... but then again i set enough sled traps in my day as the sled retards used to tresspass on my land a lot... i loved watching them end over and lose tracks.

"Retards"... LOL Maybe you should take a spelling and grammar class. Secondly, that is highly illegal and I would sue you until you didn't have a pot to piss in if I was injured due to something of that sort. If you would injure or risk killing someone over something so minute, that is sad. Have you ever lost a loved one, and could you imagine killing someone's child? Build a ****ing fence.

Have a nice day.

RSF
12-17-2008, 10:28 AM
naw no need too.. i have huge hands and keyboards dont fit me well .. so sue me wont be the first or last... dont tresspass and ruin my land, yes i have and guess what too bad they made a choice to disobey the law.. why should i build a fence to keep out idiots who have no right to be there? oh yah your one of those you the have the right to go anyplace... i see so its my fault you disprespect someone else's land.. so i should spend money to build a fence for land i own to keep your kind out.......

funny i know of folks who hunt from horse back that shoot a lot a of game without spooking them unlike sleds..

RSF
12-17-2008, 10:32 AM
But then again i guess i should stop stirring the pot your too easy to rile and laugh at.......... i love easy minded folks like you... easy to bait and to keep in the argument with a bit a bait LOLOL

who dat
12-17-2008, 10:35 AM
"Retards"... LOL Maybe you should take a spelling and grammar class. Secondly, that is highly illegal and I would sue you until you didn't have a pot to piss in if I was injured due to something of that sort. If you would injure or risk killing someone over something so minute, that is sad. Have you ever lost a loved one, and could you imagine killing someone's child? Build a ****ing fence.

Have a nice day.
Wow...typical libtard response. They want to break the law, and if your land upon which they trespass isn't safe enough for them, it's your fault.

DodgeBoy
12-17-2008, 10:39 AM
naw no need too.. i have huge hands and keyboards dont fit me well .. so sue me wont be the first or last... dont tresspass and ruin my land, yes i have and guess what too bad they made a choice to disobey the law.. why should i build a fence to keep out idiots who have no right to be there? oh yah your one of those you the have the right to go anyplace... i see so its my fault you disprespect someone else's land.. so i should spend money to build a fence for land i own to keep your kind out.......

funny i know of folks who hunt from horse back that shoot a lot a of game without spooking them unlike sleds..

That is really pathedic that you would be willing to cause harm to someone over that, maybe if you lost a loved one in that manor you would think twice; And if you are going to criticize those people for breaking the law - maybe you shouldn't be a hypocrite and do the same yourself.

Secondly, You are grouping all snowmobilers together - which is never fair, no matter what you are talking about; there are always exceptions. I don't trespass, never have and never will. I think it is completely wrong and don't like it done on my land, in turn I don't do it on others land.

Lastly, I could shoot a million deer and elk from my snowmobile too - what is your point? Hell, I could have probably killed a few with a knife.


Wow...typical libtard response. They want to break the law, and if your land upon which they trespass isn't safe enough for them, it's your fault.

I don't agree with tresspassing like I said above, but I also don't feel it is something I would be willing to possibly take someone's life over.

PhotoTom
12-17-2008, 10:42 AM
Folks...please review the "Acceptable Use Policy" of these boards:
http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11300


You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed). The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that the webmaster, administrator and moderators of this forum have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should they see fit.

Let's keep it civil, please.

- Mod

RSF
12-17-2008, 11:09 AM
like grouping all horseowners right.... easy prey today life is so good.

i dont own a horse or a sled... i like a good baiting and story telling session to keep it going.... easy i swear.



LOL you missed it all together LOL.......