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dmd7765
01-20-2016, 11:55 AM
West Michigan Womens Expo March 11-13, 2016

This is a 3 day show staffed joined by MGO & MOC.

We will be offering information to the ladies in attendance on Why they need to protect themselves and their families, why firearms are a good option.

We would like to have as many female members staffing this show as possible. Ideally 1 or 2 volunteers per shift

Friday (11th)-d_flinders
8am-12am-Setup Mr. Waverly
12am-4pm
4pm-8pm

Saturday (12th)-dmd7765, d_flinders
10am-3pm
3pm-8pm

Sunday (13th)-dmd7765, d_flinders
11am-2pm
2pm-5pm & tear down


DeVos Place
303 Monroe Ave NW, Grand River, MI 49503

dmd7765
01-26-2016, 09:38 PM
Bump


dmd7765

hisbetterhalf
01-26-2016, 10:13 PM
It looks like myself and Redwingsrule6971 should be there all day (11-5) Sunday..........I will let you know for sure as soon as I hear back. We may have another female MOC/MGO member available as well.

We are having conversation with several women to not only join but, assist us in staffing.

hisbetterhalf
01-26-2016, 10:20 PM
It was discussed in MOC meeting tonight..........As information becomes available in regards to staffing the event with women..........I will try to keep you updated.

redwingsrule6971
01-26-2016, 10:33 PM
I'll talk to my person and see if she's interested and will let you know, Lori as soon as I can confirm.


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mikeb32
01-26-2016, 11:16 PM
I Love it when a Plan comes together!

Mr. Waverly
01-28-2016, 06:55 PM
I am available on Friday, March 11. Let me know if you need help that day, unless you prefer this to be a ladies-only event.

dmd7765
01-28-2016, 07:06 PM
I am available on Friday, March 11. Let me know if you need help that day, unless you prefer this to be a ladies-only event.

I could for sure use some help with setup


dmd7765

hisbetterhalf
01-28-2016, 08:22 PM
I know one of our female MOC members lives in Grand Rapids and has said she is planning a Friday shift.........I have to touch base with her yet. I am hoping she may be able to provide some additional local volunteers.

We "MAY" have some Saturday volunteers. More information on staffing as I get responses.

I thought I had a couple more shifts covered but, distance has them questioning if they are able to participate.

Mr. Waverly
01-29-2016, 12:22 PM
I could for sure use some help with setup


dmd7765

I will mark this down on my calendar, but don't hesitate to remind me - old age, you know.

Mr. Waverly
02-04-2016, 04:20 PM
Just out of curiosity, is OC/CC allowed for this event?

dmd7765
02-04-2016, 04:26 PM
Yes- it is at a public (city) owned event center

dmd7765
02-24-2016, 12:22 PM
Putting this out there just in case. My daughter is scheduled for an induction on day 1 of the show March 11th, is anyone available to go setup and work the show with d_flinders. My daughter may not make it to the induction date, but would like to have a back up plan just in case.

Mr. Waverly
02-24-2016, 05:22 PM
I was planning to be there for the setup. What time should I be there? I am assuming parking is nearby.

dmd7765
02-24-2016, 09:43 PM
I will let you know within a couple of days


dmd7765

dmd7765
03-01-2016, 09:42 AM
If you could be there about 845am to help set up that would be great. d_flinders will be coming from Metro Detroit to help set up and run the show. Dock Door 6 off Michigan Street. PM me your phone number so I can pass it on to Denise.


I was planning to be there for the setup. What time should I be there? I am assuming parking is nearby.

Mr. Waverly
03-08-2016, 10:22 AM
Are there any special messages we want to present, or, especially from those who have attended similar events in the past, are there any issues that might arise that we will need to respond to, such as anti-2A? I would imagine that personal safety would be high on our priority list, but any additional thought starters would be great.

Thanks.

dmd7765
03-08-2016, 02:39 PM
We will have the appropriate materials at the booth for hand out

Mr. Waverly
03-08-2016, 06:50 PM
Thanks.

Mr. Waverly
03-10-2016, 04:33 PM
West Michigan Womens Expo March 11-13, 2016

This is a 3 day show staffed joined by MGO & MOC.

We will be offering information to the ladies in attendance on Why they need to protect themselves and their families, why firearms are a good option.

We would like to have as many female members staffing this show as possible. Ideally 1 or 2 volunteers per shift

Friday (11th)-d_flinders
8am-12am-Setup Mr. Waverly
12am-4pm
4pm-8pm

Saturday (12th)-dmd7765, d_flinders
10am-3pm
3pm-8pm

Sunday (13th)-dmd7765, d_flinders
11am-2pm
2pm-5pm & tear down


DeVos Place
303 Monroe Ave NW, Grand River, MI 49503

Are we three the only volunteers? Hopefully there are more that can help, even for a couple of hours.

I will be able to stay until about 2 pm, then I have to leave for another engagement.

dmd7765
03-10-2016, 04:37 PM
Yes its a small crew, small booth, we should be there about 845am


Are we three the only volunteers? Hopefully there are more that can help, even for a couple of hours.

I will be able to stay until about 2 pm, then I have to leave for another engagement.

Mr. Waverly
03-10-2016, 05:50 PM
See you there.

partdeux
03-10-2016, 08:09 PM
the same 7-10 people to 90% of the work.

I'm in awe of the amount of time and effort seetee puts into these shows.

mikeb32
03-10-2016, 08:51 PM
the same 7-10 people to 90% of the work.

I'm in awe of the amount of time and effort seetee puts into these shows.

We gave him this weekend off.........Payed!!

partdeux
03-10-2016, 09:12 PM
We gave him this weekend off.........Payed!!

Wish we could have been there :(

SeeTee
03-10-2016, 09:39 PM
the same 7-10 people to 90% of the work.

I'm in awe of the amount of time and effort seetee puts into these shows.

Well it's all a team effort, as far as the two Women's expo's & the Novi Gun show's it has been Dave that gets the credit for putting it together.

Kaeto
03-11-2016, 11:17 AM
I'd have volunteered except my car chose this time to puke out part of a sparkplug.

PhotoTom
03-11-2016, 04:10 PM
Uh ohh…trouble at the show…time to kick-up those legal fund donations again...

Kaeto
03-11-2016, 05:04 PM
Wha hoppen?

dmd7765
03-11-2016, 05:29 PM
The Devos Place Mgmt claim this as a no firearms per there policy, and the city of GR deputy attorney claim the authority (CAA) is private, MOC left the booth and firearms have been removed


dmd7765

PhotoTom
03-11-2016, 05:39 PM
The Devos Place Mgmt claim this as a no firearms per there policy, and the city of GR deputy attorney claim the authority (CAA) is private, MOC left the booth and firearms have been removed


dmd7765

And MGO…?

dmd7765
03-11-2016, 05:49 PM
We are still here, I am conflicted, I want to leave but then I think of the Novi Gun Show or outdoorama where Mgo goes


dmd7765

dmd7765
03-11-2016, 05:53 PM
I am personally thinking about revising my position on shows where we can't carry wether its concealed or open carry and if we attend those events


dmd7765

PhotoTom
03-11-2016, 05:58 PM
We are still here, I am conflicted, I want to leave but then I think of the Novi Gun Show or outdoorama where Mgo goes


dmd7765

I would think that MGO being there is more beneficial to MGO than leaving.
Otherwise…if we only go to gun friendly facilities, we are essentially preaching to the choir.

-Tom

planedriver
03-11-2016, 06:01 PM
We are still here, I am conflicted, I want to leave but then I think of the Novi Gun Show or outdoorama where Mgo goes


dmd7765

Do you have the woman power to work the booth? That answer will tell the story about whether or not to stay but the question would remain. Who is the deserter as seen through the eyes of the patrons?

It occurs to me that we should reassess our relationship with MOC's precipitant of their actions and agreement agreement.

Not to be an I told you so, but I could have told you so. If they thought they could carry openly at DeVos, the Amway or a host of other businesses in and around GR it won't happen.

dmd7765
03-11-2016, 06:23 PM
Yes we do have the women volunteers to man the booth. Both orgs new this might happen, we did our best on researching the venue and the expo. The Devos Place is owned by the CAA and authority set up be Kent County and the city of Grand Rapids. MOC paid half for the expo, they knew they were risking paying half for a show and not attending , we knew up front their policy on no guns no attendance


dmd7765

dmd7765
03-11-2016, 06:24 PM
I think MOC did nothing wrong they stuck to there policy and I back that


dmd7765

planedriver
03-11-2016, 06:53 PM
Sounds like you have got it under control! Make the best of it. There are prospective new members everywhere.

fozzy71
03-11-2016, 08:13 PM
Pay for the booth, leave it un-manned with literature, etc and a sign stating why there are no attendees for the booth?

mikeb32
03-11-2016, 09:17 PM
Michigan Gun Owners is a not-for-profit grass roots organization committed to educating the public on safe responsible gun ownership and preserving and defending the right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the Bill of Rights and Article I, section 6 of Michigan’s Constitution.


Gentlemen, Sometimes to Accomplish the things that are mentioned in our Mission Statement above, we have to play by the rules of those who are making them, to get our Educating and Teaching Safe & Responsible Gun Handling Points across to the General Public.

Our Goals for doing this Expo this weekend, was to get the word out to the Ladies about MGO/MOC, What We do and what We are all about, It would have been fantastic to be able to have been armed during the show, but as Dave has mentioned earlier, some times the Organizers of these Events don't always play by the Rules and don't always follow the Laws.

MGO will be fulfilling the commitment We made to this show and hopefully our Conversation with the Ladies will also include why We were asked to disarm.

Our decision to remain at the show, is not in anyway a Reflection on MOC's decision to leave. We understand and support their decision.

dmd7765
03-11-2016, 09:22 PM
Well said mr president


dmd7765

redwingsrule6971
03-11-2016, 09:37 PM
Michigan Gun Owners is a not-for-profit grass roots organization committed to educating the public on safe responsible gun ownership and preserving and defending the right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed by the Bill of Rights and Article I, section 6 of Michigan’s Constitution.


Gentlemen, Sometimes to Accomplish the things that are mentioned in our Mission Statement above, we have to play by the rules of those who are making them, to get our Educating and Teaching Safe & Responsible Gun Handling Points across to the General Public.

Our Goals for doing this Expo this weekend, was to get the word out to the Ladies about MGO/MOC, What We do and what We are all about, It would have been fantastic to be able to have been armed during the show, but as Dave has mentioned earlier, some times the Organizers of these Events don't always play by the Rules and don't always follow the Laws.

MGO will be fulfilling the commitment We made to this show and hopefully our Conversation with the Ladies will also include why We were asked to disarm.

Our decision to remain at the show, is not in anyway a Reflection on MOC's decision to leave. We understand and support their decision.

Well said, Mike.

I was going to be one of the volunteers for MOC Saturday and Sunday.

As a member of MGO as well, I know MGO is going to do a phenomenal job as always.


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Mr. Waverly
03-11-2016, 09:49 PM
I would also like to add that, while I was there until about 2 pm (had to leave for another commitment), there was a tremendous amount of positive support from Expo attendees as well as a great deal of interest concerning what it takes to get a CPL. Our message was presented, and heard. As Dave, Denise, Sandy and I discussed today, and mentioned earlier in this thread, it's not enough to attend only gun-friendly venues - we need to visit as many venues as possible to expand the principles we support.

Thanks to MGO and MOC for sponsoring this event.

wizzi01
03-11-2016, 10:16 PM
Of course the idiots are all over the mlive article about this. http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2016/03/open-carrying_woman_told_to_ge.html

d_flinders
03-11-2016, 10:17 PM
We have had nothing but positive interaction with a lot of women (and the few men that were dragged there. Haha). I just wish we had a CPL class set up for the show. There was a great deal of interest for one. Might be something to consider for future!

Nmadole
03-11-2016, 10:24 PM
The comments are rude and disrespectful; doing my best to keep people in check

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2016/03/open-carrying_woman_told_to_ge.html

Sorry for the repost of the link... didn't see it already posted

Keep up the good fight MGO!

Double_Tap
03-11-2016, 10:42 PM
What a bunch of uneducated, wait, sorry, obviously education has absolutely no bearing on intelligence OR common sense. WOW. Imagine if all CPL holders started open carrying, these people would wet themselves.

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Norton
03-12-2016, 08:10 AM
What about a petition to be signed at the show? Stating that 2nd amendments rights are being trampled. Gun owners are being allowed to be treated like 2nd class citizens.
It may be a minor protest, but it would gather names, start conversations.
Also holsters being worn, with something attached that said " Ask me why this is empty".

dmd7765
03-12-2016, 08:17 AM
This is why HB4795 needs to be passed and signed into law. We need teeth that will hold these gov't entities responsible. Please spread the word, call your representatives.


dmd7765

dmd7765
03-12-2016, 08:39 AM
I would like to add that everything that happened at the expo was discussed beforehand by both orgs as to what was going to happen if we had any issues. This was not a surprise or unexpected, we had a plan in place before we attended.


dmd7765

Str8 Shooter
03-13-2016, 01:36 PM
Pretty embarrassing for MOC members to get the boot. They should have understood the rules 100% before OCing in that venue. I view this as a black eye for them.

mikeb32
03-13-2016, 01:45 PM
Pretty embarrassing for MOC members to get the boot. They should have understood the rules 100% before OCing in that venue. I view this as a black eye for them.

They did not get the Boot at all. They left voluntarily, since they have a policy that they do not do shows where they are not allowed to Open Carry.

partdeux
03-13-2016, 06:16 PM
Pretty embarrassing for MOC members to get the boot. They should have understood the rules 100% before OCing in that venue. I view this as a black eye for them.

Govt owned entity. Same legal construction as CADL, which was resolved in MOC's favor in court. Devos has no legal standing to do what they did under MI pre-emption law. Unfortunately, there is no "teeth" to force them to follow the law. Mgt hid behind the jack booted thugs to enforce their quite illegal "opinion".

Str8 Shooter
03-14-2016, 04:28 AM
They did not get the Boot at all. They left voluntarily, since they have a policy that they do not do shows where they are not allowed to Open Carry.

Someone gave me a negative vote saying uninformed comment. Look, I have been around gun my entire life and will be 52 in a couple months. If there is one thing that I have learned about guns and people who are not comfortable around them, it is to be considerate of their view and in no way try to force them to like guns or be too forward about them. I have had many people come open their minds and be more receptive to guns this way.

The only reason MOC left if because they were not allowed to OC. You said it yourself. I believe that the research should have been done up front and that if not allowed to OC, to not even bother paying to attend in the first place.

Any way you look at it, it was confrontational.

mikeb32
03-14-2016, 07:00 AM
Someone gave me a negative vote saying uninformed comment. Look, I have been around gun my entire life and will be 52 in a couple months. If there is one thing that I have learned about guns and people who are not comfortable around them, it is to be considerate of their view and in no way try to force them to like guns or be too forward about them. I have had many people come open their minds and be more receptive to guns this way.

The only reason MOC left if because they were not allowed to OC. You said it yourself. I believe that the research should have been done up front and that if not allowed to OC, to not even bother paying to attend in the first place.

Any way you look at it, it was confrontational.

I have no idea who gave you the Negative vote. My point was just to inform you of the facts of what happen and to let you know that no one got booted.

I just turned 62 and if I have learned one thing in those 62 years, is to Trust but Verify before reporting what are supposedly the facts of any story.

dmd7765
03-14-2016, 07:33 AM
To clear this up. The Research was done in advance by both orgs. (independently). Devos place is owned by the CAA (local Govt Authority). The Grand Rapids-Kent County Convention/Arena Authority (CAA) is the seven-member board that administers DeVos Place, DeVos Performance Hall and Van Andel Arena. The CAA was established on March 29, 2000 by the City of Grand Rapids and County of Kent under the Convention Facility Authority Act, Act 203 of the Public Acts of Michigan of 1999.

Therefore it is public owned in the opinion of MGO & MOC. Thus the CAA would be preempted (MCL 123.1101-123.1105) from making making or enacting their own gun laws. This view was upheld in multiple court cases, MCRGO vs Ferndale in 2003 and CADL vs MOC in 2012.

Did either group call to check with the Devos Place, the city of GR, or the GRPD, No- that is is not what is done, I would never ask the local unit of government or a police dept for legal advice. We do our own reach and make our own decision. We reviewed the rules of the event organizer (Kohler Expo) and founds they had no policy against guns.

PhotoTom
03-14-2016, 07:34 AM
I believe that the research should have been done up front and that if not allowed to OC, to not even bother paying to attend in the first place.


One thing MOC (and the OC movement in general) has proven…challenging the "norm" gets things changed, typically for the better.
In many instances, the people saying "you can't do that" have been proven wrong and their eyes opened.
Had they not been challenged, their misconceptions would have continued.

Being willing to step beyond the norm and challenge acceptance of legal carry is something that the OC crowd should be applauded for…there's only a small percentage of "grass roots" folks that have the guts and willingness to do it. Of course, it all hasn't been "perfect", but by and large, they have done a lot more good for gun owners than bad.

bigt8261
03-14-2016, 08:33 AM
Our decision to remain at the show, is not in anyway a Reflection on MOC's decision to leave. We understand and support their decision.

Jumping in a bit late here.

Speaking for MOC, the same goes in the opposite direction. We respect and support MGO's decision.

MOC has discussed the issue at length, as I'm sure MGO has too. I personally see many great arguments on both sides of the topic. In the end, what is best for one organization may not be the best for every organization.

Tom Lambert
MOC President

bigt8261
03-14-2016, 08:39 AM
One thing MOC (and the OC movement in general) has proven…challenging the "norm" gets things changed, typically for the better.
In many instances, the people saying "you can't do that" have been proven wrong and their eyes opened.
Had they not been challenged, their misconceptions would have continued.

Being willing to step beyond the norm and challenge acceptance of legal carry is something that the OC crowd should be applauded for…there's only a small percentage of "grass roots" folks that have the guts and willingness to do it. Of course, it all hasn't been "perfect", but by and large, they have done a lot more good for gun owners than bad.

I agree and of course it has to be done the right way. IMO, leaving complying was not only the best thing to do legally, it was the best thing to do politically. Now we look reasonable which clears the way for the blame to fall somewhere else. One thing I have learned is that being right is not the only important thing.

fozzy71
03-14-2016, 08:57 AM
Kudo's to both orgs for how each chose to handle it. This reminds me I need to rejoin MOC and will have to get that taken care of this week.

Str8 Shooter
03-14-2016, 12:10 PM
I didn't realize enough about the organization I chose to support here. How I got to the point of selling $80,000,000 million of steel in just Michigan, working from my home, alone, must be a miracle seeing how many of you act like I have no common sense or people skills whatsoever. At almost 52 years of age, I could retire and not change my lifestyle at all even if I lived into my 90s. I choose not to because I love what I do and have fun doing it. Plus it allows me to be a philanthropist of sorts at a relatively young age. This is not offered as a means of bragging, but rather to let readers know that not all 1%ers only view things from the perspective of what's in it for them.

If I were anti-gun, and I walked into a place not expecting to see people armed with guns; it would have only served to strengthen my anti-gun resolve. Just because a person has a right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do in all circumstances. I think a lot more people would have gotten behind the cause had they been exposed to it for the first time at the booth sans the guns. You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

It seems that if one is not a 100% gun nut, that this is not the place for them.

And I agree with some of the comments regarding the dress code for this event that were posted following the news article at the link that was posted. When I rent space at a convention of any sort, I do my best to show a little more respect to the attendees, not just throw on some wrinkled old T-shirt with my company logo on it.

Good luck in your endeavors.

Good bye.

PhotoTom
03-14-2016, 12:27 PM
It seems that if one is not a 100% gun nut, that this is not the place for them.

MGO is made-up of a widely diverse cross-section of members.
Some like to hunt, but don't care for getting a CPL and carrying a handgun around.
Some are into handguns, have a CPL and carry occasionally.
Some are into handguns, have a CPL and carry everywhere, but never openly.
Some carry openly, most with CPL's.
Some are cops.
Some are lawyers.
Some are salesmen.
Some are retired.

Your assertion was that the MGO/MOC participants should have done their homework beforehand (which they did) and if they found that firearms were not welcomed, they shouldn't have attended.

However, there is a difference between not welcomed and illegal. If it is not illegal, it is legal. If it is legal, it is everyone's right.

Some choose to exercise their rights. Some choose not to exercise their rights.
Those that have chosen to push the boundaries and exercise their rights have successfully opened/broadened those boundaries for the rest of us.

All I am saying is, you don't have to be one to push the boundaries and make 2A more widely accepted, but there's no reason to kick dirt in the faces of those that choose to do so on behalf of all firearms owners.

Double_Tap
03-14-2016, 09:22 PM
Well said, Photo Tom! Very true, some choose to stand for their rights, some are more worried about how others perceive them.

Freetime
03-15-2016, 09:22 AM
[QUOTE=Str8 Shooter;2747226

It seems that if one is not a 100% gun nut, that this is not the place for them.

And I agree with some of the comments regarding the dress code for this event that were posted following the news article at the link that was posted. When I rent space at a convention of any sort, I do my best to show a little more respect to the attendees, not just throw on some wrinkled old T-shirt with my company logo on it.

Good luck in your endeavors.

Good bye.[/QUOTE]

You seem to be really hung-up on yourself fella! No one really cares about your self-worship except YOU! Maybe you should go stare at yourself in the mirror and admire your greatness, instead of trying to run others down because they don't dress to your expectations! If you feel the need to leave then, SO BE IT!! BYE BYE This is my personal opinion

dmd7765
03-15-2016, 11:15 AM
And so it continues http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2016/03/open_carry_group_considering_l.html

dmd7765
03-16-2016, 07:20 AM
http://stevegruber.podbean.com/e/tuesday-march-15-2016-david-dellinger/


dmd7765

PhotoTom
03-16-2016, 07:49 AM
http://stevegruber.podbean.com/e/tuesday-march-15-2016-david-dellinger/


dmd7765

:thumbup:

dmd7765
03-25-2016, 03:20 PM
Here is the letter sent to the CAA on behalf of MGO & MOC. By our attorney SteveS, and Dean Greenblatt attorney for MOC.