Pests vs Hunting vs Responsibility.

[gh0stpirate]

Hi guys, looking for some advise as id rather not break the law etc. I live in Livonia in a somewhat heavily wooded area. I have an extreme pest of a single racoon that is causing havoc with my garbages, garage etc. Neighbor is also having same issue.

What wondering what the always not so fun DNR vs County laws would deem acceptable if anyone has been in similar situation.

Bottom line: i feel like Bill Murray hunting groundhogs. I just want to (safely and responsibly) kill this pest raccoon using 22. Is this breaking the law?

[wsr]

Discharging a firearm inside livonia city limits would be illegal ...just a wild guess

[gh0stpirate]

Thank you. I find the legal back and fourth very confusing.
DNR seems to say if its on your property, yes.
Wayne county seems to agree.
Local Ordinance seems to say no.

I hate how difficult it is to be relatively new to this stuff. :(

[DrScaryGuy]

you can get a live trap and hope it works.
put it in an "out of sight" area, but you ahve to worry about your local trapping laws too. I know my city doesn't really respond to animal issues, so...
I didn't have much luck with live traps, or leg traps. I caught a few toes, but that's about it.
a backstop and a silencer might become your friend. Aside from that, a pellet rifle? a bb wouldn't do much to a raccoon I don't think. a plated pellet might have more luck.
pests seem to be all over lately. I've seen raccoons, skunks, deer, squirrels, and possums making messes all over my suburb.

[Ruger]

Livonia is a bit crazy on this issue. They will tell you that any problem with wild or nuisance animals is your problem and they refer you to one of the local professional's like critter control.
From experience: Critter control, service call, $149, each animal removed $75......

[DrScaryGuy]

Livonia is a bit crazy on this issue. They will tell you that any problem with wild or nuisance animals is your problem and they refer you to one of the local professional's like critter control.
From experience: Critter control, service call, $149, each animal removed $75......

so, who in the city council has family that runs a pest control business?

[partdeux]

air pistol?

Doubt it's just one

[Sledhead]

More then one.

Do it now while everyone has there windows closed at night or you'll have to wait until the end of November.

[gh0stpirate]

I really don't want to spend a pile of money on a trap, as i saw this thing the other night and it is the size of a freaking medium sized dog (seriously this thing is a beast) so that also kinda puts the stop on cheap small traps, bb, or pellet as the odds of an actual kill shot would be abysmal. I hate living in a city. Guess i'll have to build some insane dangerous insta kill trap since the city has an issue with humanely controlling pest populations using safe (when using your brain like anything else) and effective methods.

Wonder if this is an option: youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6kKhlX8vU lmao

[astocks2622]

I live in a subdivision, and we have used the cage style live trap for removing problem coons. Had no trouble even with some big ones. It was about $45.
Use marshmallows as bait so you don't get the neighbors cat...
What you do with it after trapping is up to you. You might be able to get away with some CB 22s, or CCI quiet 22 ammo. Not much louder than a pellet gun (quieter than some).

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

[steve77]

IF it is lawful to trap, you could get a dogproof trap and bait it with a marshmallow. I use them all the time around my chickens. Dispose of them in whatever manner works for you.
https://www.google.com/search?q=dog+proof+coon+traps&espv=2&biw=1455&bih=700&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM_8jk9brPAhUGLSYKHWvOALkQ_AUICCgD

[DTruck]

Bows are pretty quiet

[DrScaryGuy]

Bows are pretty quiet

so is a silenced 22 with subsonic ammo. but a non-kill shot with either has the potential to be VERY loud. even a squirrel that runs off after a poorly placed pellet shot can make quite a racket up in the trees. Don't ask me how I know.

[Jackam]

From experience: Critter control, service call, $149, each animal removed $75......

That's about right.

You don't have to worry about the laws, unintended ricochets, or that pesky raccoon - ever again!

[Leader]

I live in a subdivision, and we have used the cage style live trap for removing problem coons. Had no trouble even with some big ones. It was about $45.
Use marshmallows as bait so you don't get the neighbors cat...
What you do with it after trapping is up to you. You might be able to get away with some CB 22s, or CCI quiet 22 ammo. Not much louder than a pellet gun (quieter than some).

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

Just don't bring it out to the "country" and release it on MY property.

[solarguy]

It's pretty rare that it's just one. If you're paying someone to remove each animal, count on 4-6. And then 4-6 more next spring.

If you trap and euthanize humanely, you still have to think about what you're going to do with the bodies...just saying...

Agreed, live trapping followed by dumping them in the country is both unethical and illegal.

[langenc]

Does the nearest neighbor agree it is a nuisance?? Maybe he is a hunter. Explain the shooting thing to him and blaze away.

[Cocowheats]

A $30 Daisy pump BB gun from Walmart with some conical pellets and a well placed shot will do it rather quietly...I've seen them drop possums in a single shot. It'd be quieter than the mentioned .22 options.

[DEVIL DOG]

A live trap & a Heritage 22mag with CCI shot shells do the trick. Bag it & put it in the trash.

DNR says it's illegal to trap & release. They say trap & "Dispatch" the animal.

City ord. where I live prohibits firing a "Single Projectile" in the city limits.

BB's will not even kill a squirrel, let alone a coon. A pellet gun with enough FPS at the base of the skull will work. There are some bad ass pellet pistols out there. But I chose the 22 route because I can also use it for target shooting.

[steve77]

Would it be legal to Catch, Transport, then Dispatch? If so you could live trap then drive to some place legal to discharge a firearm and shoot them.

[Roundballer]

Would it be legal to Catch, Transport, then Dispatch? If so you could live trap then drive to some place legal to discharge a firearm and shoot them.
No, it is illegal to "possess" live wildlife.

Just dunk the whole trap in a trashcan full of water and leave it for 15 minutes.

[solarguy]

Carry it down in the basement and shoot it in the head twice with a .22.

Don't be alarmed that they flop around for a minute or so. That's their peripheral nervous system. They're gone. They're feeling nothing...

As a general rule, to euthanize an animal by shooting it in the brain, draw a line from the right eye to the left ear, and another line from the left eye to the right ear. Shoot straight down where the lines cross.

[wrinkledshirt]

Golden Malrin

Shooting stuff in populated areas is a recipe for trouble.

[Ruger]

I've had the Crossman 1377 for close to 30 years and it will penetrate the skull of just about any animal I'd need to dispatch. I've taken dozens of rabbits with it at 15 yards or less..


48525

[DEVIL DOG]

Just dunk the whole trap in a trashcan full of water and leave it for 15 minutes.[/QUOTE]

I like this idea a lot.

[Scandiacus]

From experience: Critter control, service call, $149, each animal removed $75......

How does that cost compare to the fine for discharging a .22 in city limits IF you're caught?

[Ruger]

How does that cost compare to the fine for discharging a .22 in city limits IF you're caught?

I would have to guess at that......But I'd rather not take the chance of discharging anything loud enough to make the neighbors aware.

[Jackam]

No, it is illegal to "possess" live wildlife.

Just dunk the whole trap in a trashcan full of water and leave it for 15 minutes.

You do and I'll be the one calling the RAP hotline.

Terrible advice. Illegal.

[Jackam]

Golden Malrin

Shooting stuff in populated areas is a recipe for trouble.

ILLEGAL.

This is a Federal offense, not just a state one.

[Jackam]

Geez guys.

There's ways to do this legally and ethically and all by yourself if you think you can do the job better than a pro.

There's a ton of good advice here. A handful that's not so good.

The next post that suggests an illegal activity will have me looking at the AUPs for the part that says "Material in Violation of Any Applicable Laws." I'm pretty sure that it comes along with the highest amount of points and lasts the longest of any infraction.

[wrinkledshirt]

ILLEGAL.

This is a Federal offense, not just a state one.

I named a legally-available OFF THE SHELF product. I did not advocate how to use it.

Since mods here are acting as white-knight enforcers of asinine federal laws, I'll have to rethink my monetary support for "grassroots" MGO.

[Sledhead]

Why not just keep feeding them?

My wife did that with a feral cat and how he's her pet. Now she is talking about having him neutered so she can let him in the house without peeing on the floor.

Whooo wait a minute, that's what she did to me.


However, I still pee on the floor.

[Ruger]

Why not just keep feeding them?

My wife did that with a feral cat and how he's her pet. Now she is talking about having him neutered so she can let him in the house without peeing on the floor.

Whooo wait a minute, that's what she did to me.


However, I still pee on the floor.

:yeahthat:

[Sledhead]

:yeahthat:

Sorry I forgot this place was high on the ATF's watch list, I'll be serious from here on out.:idea2:

[Roundballer]

No, it is illegal to "possess" live wildlife.

Just dunk the whole trap in a trashcan full of water and leave it for 15 minutes.

You do and I'll be the one calling the RAP hotline.

Terrible advice. Illegal.

Since you have made the accusation and threatened reprisal, please for our education and edification cite the MCL or Conservation Order, with links, that support your position.

[Ruger]

Since you have made the accusation and threatened reprisal, please for our education and edification cite the MCL or Conservation Order, with links, that support your position.

A challenge has been issued!
48594

[Ghost1941]

Geez guys.

There's ways to do this legally and ethically and all by yourself if you think you can do the job better than a pro.

There's a ton of good advice here. A handful that's not so good.

The next post that suggests an illegal activity will have me looking at the AUPs for the part that says "Material in Violation of Any Applicable Laws." I'm pretty sure that it comes along with the highest amount of points and lasts the longest of any infraction.

Except... it's not illegal. Unless things have changed, the DNR has for a long time suggested drowning as the most humane method. Again, maybe things have changed, but it's a bit of a stretch to go forum God on somebody over using an approved method from our DNR.

Even MSU penned an article on the topic.
https://www.oakgov.com/msu/Documents/publications/oc0214_skunks.pdf

"Trapped animals may be killed by drowning in a trashcan filled with water."

[wsr]

WTH, you guys ran jack off

[Roundballer]

WTH, you guys ran jack off
I am quite sure that he hasn't gone far, I doubt that his hubris would allow it.



A challenge has been issued!
48594

No, this is not a challenge.

He has claimed that what was suggested is a crime, and threatened to call it in if he knew it was happening.
I would like to further my education (after all, setting trap for beaver is often made to drown the animal when it is caught) IF it is indeed illegal. He needs to show that or lose what credibility that he may retain at this point.

[wrinkledshirt]

I am quite sure that he hasn't gone far, I doubt that his hubris would allow it.

No, this is not a challenge.

He has claimed that what was suggested is a crime, and threatened to call it in if he knew it was happening.
I would like to further my education (after all, setting trap for beaver is often made to drown the animal when it is caught) IF it is indeed illegal. He needs to show that or lose what credibility that he may retain at this point.

He responded to my PM about all this, he went deer hunting.

[Quads]

Pretty sure Livonia police will show up if you take to target practice with coons out back, even if you're on a couple acres.
I'd probably try to trap, then trashcan / water (don't freak out people, DNR recommends this with skunks which is very effective, as well other pests) or a quiet 22LR to the peach while still in the trap.

There's a problem to all of this however. While I trust you have a raccoon issue, I promise you it isn't one raccoon. S.E. Mi. and suburbs are simply infested with raccoons. DNR tagged a few hundred of them to watch / observe, and they basically go from neighborhood to neighborhood following trash night. Most any honest trapper / pest control will tell you the same thing. A healthy raccoon population is about 2.5 per square mile. DNR numbers counted north of 20 to 25 per square mile. So, you simply won't get rid of them.

We learned bungie cords on trash cans, take them out the day of, versus the night prior, etc. worked better than trapping / shooting, etc. Unless they've found their way in the house, set up camp in the garage, etc. then they're simply part of the overpopulation in the area.

Good luck. I feel your pain with the pesky little *******s.

[Roundballer]

He responded to my PM about all this, he went deer hunting.

Today at 8:11 am http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?366075-CNN-edits-video-so-we-don-t-hear-police-yell-quot-Drop-the-gun!-quot-over-and-over-again-in-Keith-Scott-shooting&p=2835071&viewfull=1#post2835071

Today at 8:25 am http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?366377-A-Caller-on-the-David-Webb-Show-Made-Me-Chuckle&p=2835080&viewfull=1#post2835080

Today at 8:37 am http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?366266-Ruth-s-Chris-burned-on-score-promotion-thanks-to-Michigan-s-78-0-win&p=2835090&highlight=#post2835090

Today at 7:23 pm http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?366233-Range-safety-issue-am-I-over-reacting&p=2835355&viewfull=1#post2835355

:thumbup:

[PhotoTom]

Today at 8:11 am http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?366075-CNN-edits-video-so-we-don-t-hear-police-yell-quot-Drop-the-gun!-quot-over-and-over-again-in-Keith-Scott-shooting&p=2835071&viewfull=1#post2835071

Today at 8:25 am http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?366377-A-Caller-on-the-David-Webb-Show-Made-Me-Chuckle&p=2835080&viewfull=1#post2835080

Today at 8:37 am http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?366266-Ruth-s-Chris-burned-on-score-promotion-thanks-to-Michigan-s-78-0-win&p=2835090&highlight=#post2835090

Today at 7:23 pm http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?366233-Range-safety-issue-am-I-over-reacting&p=2835355&viewfull=1#post2835355

:thumbup:

creepy

[Roundballer]

creepy

And someone deleted one of the posts.

[Jackam]

And someone deleted one of the posts.

Yep, it turns out that I replied to a closed post about a bulldozer on a shooting range.
You can't do that. I can (unknowingly.) Nothing glaringly says to me "This thread is closed," especially if I reply before scrolling all the way down to the last post.

Tom's right - creepy.

[Jackam]

I named a legally-available OFF THE SHELF product. I did not advocate how to use it.



And that product just happens to be a poison that will kill an animal by extreme poisoning. Why did you choose that one in all your innocence?

[Jackam]

WTH, you guys ran jack off

Whew! I'm glad you were judicial with your commas! :D

[Jackam]

I am quite sure that he hasn't gone far, I doubt that his hubris would allow it.
Unlike some, I try to get out and away from the keyboard and pull a trigger once in a while.
I apologize if my leaving for a long weekend has upset you.

Next time, I can send you a Glympse from my cellphone, so you can, without a doubt, know my exact whereabouts and rest easy until I return.

[Jackam]

Since you have made the accusation and threatened reprisal, please for our education and edification cite the MCL or Conservation Order, with links, that support your position.

You can stalk my online presence like a champ, but you can't find the MCL? Creepy and petty.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(2jgrbbr3mmkqkzgbloetd5nn))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-50b

Here's just one example:
Former commissioner faces animal cruelty charges for drowning a cat and an opossum that he trapped in a live trap. (http://hastingsbanner.com/former-commissioner-faces-animal-cruelty-charges-p2125-84.htm)

That's the drowning part. Just because some extension service says to do something, doesn't make it ethically or legally right.


As far as the poisoning - Here's the Michigan Law, (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(0eyvgma52sqcuzf5lms3yxnv))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-324-8307d) and here's some info on the Federal side (FIFRA.) (https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/federal-insecticide-fungicide-and-rodenticide-act-fifra-and-federal-facilities)

[Jackam]

This is a pretty good article too, as Michigan is cited:
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/02/regulators-move-limit-wildlife-deaths-misuse-deadly-fly-killer

[Roundballer]

Unlike some, I try to get out and away from the keyboard and pull a trigger once in a while.
I apologize if my leaving for a long weekend has upset you.
I didn't question the absence, I stated that you would be back. I, myself, was absent from 3:45 'til 9:08. I went to our Tuesday Small bore shoot.
What I posted just showed that you were here in the morning and again in the evening, nothing more. It doesn't show your IP address or where you were during that time, it just shows when you did, and didn't POST.


Next time, I can send you a Glympse from my cellphone, so you can, without a doubt, know my exact whereabouts and rest easy until I return.
Don't bother, that is not a claim that needs verification, we don't care where you were. It was just noted when you had POSTED.


You can stalk my online presence like a champ, but you can't find the MCL? Creepy and petty.
Two mouse clicks when looking at one of your posts will bring up your recent post history. If that is creepy, talk to vBulletin. But I like the use of the word "stalk" as a means to implicate another of nefarious activity.


http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(2jgrbbr3mmkqkzgbloetd5nn))/mileg.aspx?page=GetObject&objectname=mcl-750-50b
I can't find an MCL that apples, and neither did you.


(9) This section does not prohibit the lawful killing of an animal pursuant to any of the following:

(a) Fishing.

(b) Hunting, trapping, or wildlife control regulated under the natural resources and environmental protection act, 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.101 to 324.90106, and orders issued under that act.

(c) Pest or rodent control regulated under part 83 of the natural resources and environmental protection act, 1994 PA 451, MCL 324.8301 to 324.8336.

(d) Activities authorized under rules promulgated under section 9 of the executive organization act of 1965, 1965 PA 380, MCL 16.109.

(e) Section 19 of the dog law of 1919, 1919 PA 339, MCL 287.279.


Here's just one example:
Former commissioner faces animal cruelty charges for drowning a cat and an opossum that he trapped in a live trap. (http://hastingsbanner.com/former-commissioner-faces-animal-cruelty-charges-p2125-84.htm)

That's the drowning part. Just because some extension service says to do something, doesn't make it ethically or legally right.
That was about drowning a cat. No charges about the opossum. It is a goofy quirk in our laws, cats aren't licensed, and there are prohibitions on killing them, but, you can find conditions where it is legal for a dog (killing it).


As far as the poisoning - Here's the Michigan Law, (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(0eyvgma52sqcuzf5lms3yxnv))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-324-8307d) and here's some info on the Federal side (FIFRA.) (https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/federal-insecticide-fungicide-and-rodenticide-act-fifra-and-federal-facilities)
I am not, would not, argue the use of poison. Chemicals of all kinds are very heavily regulated. I am even very careful about the disposal of antifreeze and other automotive and household chemicals, just to avoid accidental poisoning.

[PhotoTom]

Two mouse clicks when looking at one of your posts will bring up your recent post history. If that is creepy, talk to vBulletin.

Kind of a difference in this:
http://www.migunowners.org/forum/search.php?do=finduser&userid=15195&contenttype=vBForum_Post&showposts=1

vs this (taking the time to link each post and detail each post time individually):
http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?365722-Pests-vs-Hunting-vs-Responsibility&p=2835413&viewfull=1#post2835413

Got any pictures of Jack inside his house…taken from the street at night? Ya know…nothing illegal… ;)

[Roundballer]

Kind of a difference in this:
http://www.migunowners.org/forum/search.php?do=finduser&userid=15195&contenttype=vBForum_Post&showposts=1

vs this (taking the time to link each post and detail each post time individually):
http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?365722-Pests-vs-Hunting-vs-Responsibility&p=2835413&viewfull=1#post2835413

Got any pictures of Jack inside his house…taken from the street at night? Ya know…nothing illegal… ;)
Nope, that just shows that I was willing to spend the time.

Any thing else is on the part of the observer. Just like many people find the crying baby gif very creepy:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-INjguOE0oO8/TdCT9M5ZxuI/AAAAAAAAy6s/7FeovcJezGQ/s1600/Cry+baby+1.gif

[PhotoTom]

48699

7YvAYIJSSZY

[Leader]

Nope, that just shows that I was willing to spend the time.

Any thing else is on the part of the observer. Just like many people find the crying baby gif very creepy:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-INjguOE0oO8/TdCT9M5ZxuI/AAAAAAAAy6s/7FeovcJezGQ/s1600/Cry+baby+1.gif


Well........ Those people are right.

[Ruger]

This is a pretty good article too, as Michigan is cited:
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/02/regulators-move-limit-wildlife-deaths-misuse-deadly-fly-killer


I can't imagine using such a thing! One of my DFD pals suggested fly killer and coke. Even the thought makes me sick.

[wrinkledshirt]

And that product just happens to be a poison that will kill an animal by extreme poisoning.

"Extreme poisoning." :roll:

OP could solve his own problem. Easy peezy. Every critter in the county won't die. Not "extreme" at all.


Why did you choose that one in all your innocence?

Because (for the moment) it's legally available. But soon, it won't be, it appears. Are you associated with any organization pushing to further regulate it?

You, as a pest control professional (http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?309035-Hunting-with-tannerite&p=2489854&viewfull=1#post2489854), don't really want people solving their own problems like this, do you? It would be much better if they had to cough up a few hundred bucks to guys in your line of work.

Regulatory capture. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture) It's how taxi cab companies are trying to shut down Uber/Lyft. It's repulsive.

(Yep, did some stalking of my own. I can google. :p )

[Jackam]

"Extreme poisoning." :roll:

OP could solve his own problem. Easy peezy. Every critter in the county won't die. Not "extreme" at all.
The "extreme" refers to the fact that many animals die with their face in the bowl or within a few feet of it. Poisoning mice or rats through the use of rodenticide sometimes requires several feedings and even then, death is not instant.
This product is highly illegal for use on wildlife, both on the state and federal level.




Because (for the moment) it's legally available. But soon, it won't be, it appears. Are you associated with any organization pushing to further regulate it?
Not that I am aware of.


You, as a pest control professional, don't really want people solving their own problems like this, do you?


This just shows that you really don't know me well at all, and if you think that, then you are way out of touch. Converting some guy out of my service area into a paying client is just not in the cards for me. I don't care enough for the pest control professionals anywhere else to try to "save" them from losing business. This is NOT about business. It's about legalities and the AUPs of this forum.



It would be much better if they had to cough up a few hundred bucks to guys in your line of work.

Oh, it would for me, no doubt. I'll take a couple extra hundys anytime! But just like there are shade tree mechanics, family handymen, and a multitude of other projects that are undertaken without hiring a professional, there will always be someone that wants to do it on their own. It's not rocket science. I'd be shocked that most guys on THIS forum wouldn't try it on their own. They ought to!!!! But do it ethically and legally and without advising others to break the law.


(Yep, did some stalking of my own. I can google. :p )
If you google enough, you will see that I have advised MANY here on MGO on how to properly set their own traps, what traps to use, as well as an appropriate bait to use. I've spoken to many members over the phone as well, telling them in detail how to get the job done.
You need a little better Google-** if you think that I am trying to pad my pocket. :D

[Leader]

The "extreme" refers to the fact that many animals die with their face in the bowl or within a few feet of it. Poisoning mice or rats through the use of rodenticide sometimes requires several feedings and even then, death is not instant.
This product is highly illegal for use on wildlife, both on the state and federal level.

Snip.........................................



Does this show a preference for the animals to suffer for days or weeks slowly dying?

[Jackam]

Does this show a preference for the animals to suffer for days or weeks slowly dying?

It might. I don't make the laws, I only abide by them.

And I don't know if I'd classify a mouse or a rat as an animal, but that's another debate that you can have with someone else.