HB 5960 PFZ exemption for firefighters and first responders

[Tallbear]

HB 5960 of 2016 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2016-HB-5960)
Weapons; concealed; pistol-free zones; exempt firefighters and medical first responders.
Last Action: 10/19/2016 read a first time

[LivinTheDream]

More special classes smh

[Roundballer]

Some kind of a glitch right now:


The bill you are looking for is not available yet. Please try again later.

I'll have to check it later.

[appliancebrad]

Following

[DP425]

Jesus- are you kidding me?!?!?

Now fire fighters and EMTs could get a carve out? What next?


Anyone with a Masters or Doctorate get's an exemption!!
Over-the-road truckers- you get one too
Road construction worker... You too
UAW members... We'll toss one your way as well!

[Roundballer]

Are any of you getting the actual bill to come up from the link?

The legislature site is not showing me anything newer than 9/22/16. All I get is a message:


The bill you are looking for is not available yet. Please try again later.

[luckless]

Jesus- are you kidding me?!?!?

Now fire fighters and EMTs could get a carve out? What next?


Anyone with a Master's of Doctorate get's an exemption!!
Over-the-road truckers- you get one too
Road construction worker... You too
UAW members... We'll toss one your way as well!

Yep, pretty much everyone except me.

[DEVIL DOG]

Just do away with PFZ's, PERIOD!!!

[luckless]

Just do away with PFZ's, PERIOD!!!

Devil Dog for governor!

[Leader]

Jesus- are you kidding me?!?!?

Now fire fighters and EMTs could get a carve out? What next?


Anyone with a Master's of Doctorate get's an exemption!!
Over-the-road truckers- you get one too
Road construction worker... You too
UAW members... We'll toss one your way as well!

You forgot "People of color".

[Sledhead]

I want in.

Please add white people that can't dance to the bill!

[PhotoTom]

Are any of you getting the actual bill to come up from the link?

The legislature site is not showing me anything newer than 9/22/16. All I get is a message:

Tallbear is getting pretty good at this…look at the date in the OP.

Check back after Wednesday!

[Roundballer]

Tallbear is getting pretty good at this…look at the date in the OP.

Check back after Wednesday!

That date is most often when it is expected in the House/Senate journal. Right now the server at www.legislature.mi.gov appears to be down.

And, the date in the OP doesn't explain why there appears to be no updates since 9/22.

[PhotoTom]

That date is most often when it is expected in the House/Senate journal. Right now the server at www.legislature.mi.gov appears to be down.

And, the date in the OP doesn't explain why there appears to be no updates since 9/22.

Probably because the House hasn't been in session since then (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2015-2016/sessionschedule/House/pdf/2016-HSS-1.pdf) (nor has the Senate (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2015-2016/sessionschedule/Senate/pdf/2016-SSS-1.pdf))…next date for the House in session is this coming Wednesday…where this bill will be read for the first time.

It was just a premature email update. Check again after Wednesday.

[DEVIL DOG]

How does this BS even make it out of committee ??? Can fire fighters & EMS people even carry ? On the job I mean.

[Leader]

How does this BS even make it out of committee ??? Can fire fighters & EMS people even carry ? On the job I mean.

It's not for "on the job", they can't be trusted to do that.
It's because they are so special and being government employees, they are safer & more trust worthy then the general public.

[DEVIL DOG]

ALL OF THESE CARVE-OUTS ARE B.S !!!!!

[PhotoTom]

It was just a premature email update. Check again after Wednesday.

It's up now…see link in OP.

[Roundballer]

It's up now…see link in OP.
That information is so yesterday...... 8)








But now, when someone whines about "another carve-out", at least there is a chance that they have actually read what is in the bill.
And this bill just makes #11 & #12 on the list, and gives a description of what they mean by the terms "Firefighter" and ""Medical first responder".

[PhotoTom]

And this bill just makes #11 & #12 on the list, and gives a description of what they mean by the terms "Firefighter" and ""Medical first responder".

Baby steps…this would bring us two tiny steps closer to elimination of CEZ's for everyone!

Better than ADDING new areas to the list...

[luckless]

Baby steps…this would bring us two tiny steps closer to elimination of CEZ's for everyone!

Better than ADDING new areas to the list...

Can we afford the three baby steps back we'd all have to take to get a few people something?

[PhotoTom]

It is just closing the gap between the restricted and unrestricted licenses...

Someday, garbagemen and rest area custodians will be on the list qualifying them for unrestricted licenses.

[Roundballer]

It is just closing the gap between the restricted and unrestricted licenses...

Someday, garbagemen and rest area custodians will be on the list qualifying them for unrestricted licenses.

I would expect Tow Truck Drivers and other types that are called to "emergency" scenes as "first responders" would get in first. But then again, those people are not .gov employees or don't actually fall into the groups that are noticed.

[Leader]

I would expect Tow Truck Drivers and other types that are called to "emergency" scenes as "first responders" would get in first. But then again, those people are not .gov employees or don't actually fall into the groups that are noticed.

Redneck truck drivers? You've got to be kidding.

[PhotoTom]

I think they forgot about meter maids, too...

[Roundballer]

Redneck truck drivers? You've got to be kidding.
Aww hell yes, and snow plow drivers and grader drivers and DPW workers and then "linesmen" and the guys that mow the ditches.

[luckless]

And then, one day, I too will enjoy the rights of US citizenship.

[LivinTheDream]

Whatever happened to the bill that would have allowed us to just apply for the restriction to be able to get it? Common sense isn't so common in Lansing.....I guess that's what happens when you are nothing more than a peon

[Leader]

Whatever happened to the bill that would have allowed us to just apply for the restriction to be able to get it? Common sense isn't so common in Lansing.....I guess that's what happens when you are nothing more than a peon

That bill had a TON of BAD stuff attached to it.
Thank God it didn't make it.

[mikeb32]

Whatever happened to the bill that would have allowed us to just apply for the restriction to be able to get it? Common sense isn't so common in Lansing.....I guess that's what happens when you are nothing more than a peon

If I recall, That bill required an additional class you had to take to get it.

[ryan2488]

I'm glad us paramedics and fireman are so beloved by this community. Jeez.
To be clear, most medics and emt's are not public (government) employees. We are not allowed to carry on the job as a matter of policy. We should be applauding this, not ******** on first responders. Baby steps towards pfzs being abolished is a good thing

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[sonicmatter]

I'm glad us paramedics and fireman are so beloved by this community. Jeez.
To be clear, most medics and emt's are not public (government) employees. We are not allowed to carry on the job as a matter of policy. We should be applauding this, not ******** on first responders. Baby steps towards pfzs being abolished is a good thing

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
Beloved has nothing to do with anything. Any extra-constitutional special classes of citizen cannot be allowed. PERIOD.

[luckless]

I'm glad us paramedics and fireman are so beloved by this community. Jeez.
To be clear, most medics and emt's are not public (government) employees. We are not allowed to carry on the job as a matter of policy. We should be applauding this, not ******** on first responders. Baby steps towards pfzs being abolished is a good thing

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

What do you have against the rest of us that makes you feel you should get better treatment from the government?

[wsr]

I'm glad us paramedics and fireman are so beloved by this community. Jeez.
To be clear, most medics and emt's are not public (government) employees. We are not allowed to carry on the job as a matter of policy. We should be applauding this, not ******** on first responders. Baby steps towards pfzs being abolished is a good thing

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

It has nothing to do with how this community feels about first responders, making laws because it feels good is what got us to needing a permit in the first place.

[Leader]

I'm glad us paramedics and fireman are so beloved by this community. Jeez.
To be clear, most medics and emt's are not public (government) employees. We are not allowed to carry on the job as a matter of policy. We should be applauding this, not ******** on first responders. Baby steps towards pfzs being abolished is a good thing

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

Maybe I'm wrong, would you please explain to me why you feel you are REALLY SPECIAL and deserve to be honored and revered so much more then any of the rest of us?

[PhotoTom]

I'm glad us paramedics and fireman are so beloved by this community. Jeez.
To be clear, most medics and emt's are not public (government) employees. We are not allowed to carry on the job as a matter of policy. We should be applauding this, not ******** on first responders. Baby steps towards pfzs being abolished is a good thing


Beloved has nothing to do with anything. Any extra-constitutional special classes of citizen cannot be allowed. PERIOD.


It has nothing to do with how this community feels about first responders, making laws because it feels good is what got us to needing a permit in the first place.

Agreed. The list of "exceptions" to the restrictions on the CPLs is getting longer and longer. The underlying issue is, the restrictions are unnecessary for ANY CPL holder…you either qualify for a CPL or you don't. From there, you are responsible for your actions…regardless of where you are.

We have to worry about accounting nuances of a business that serves alcohol by the glass…are they categorically a "bar"? What difference does it make? A CPL holder is held to a different standard (BAC) that is even more restrictive than a person driving a vehicle on the streets, so being in a "bar" is not the concern…it is the sobriety of the CPL holder, which is already covered in other areas of the law.

A CPL holder must be concerned with how many seats are in a potential "entertainment facility"…why? Whatever that reason…it somehow becomes invalid if the CPL holder is a judge…a court officer…a DoC probation officer…possibly a firefighter, medic or ambulance driver. Why? To justify the answer to that last "why?", you must first justify the restrictions.

[DEVIL DOG]

Instead of choosing classes of people to allow carry, they should be choosing places where ALL CPL holders Can carry. There are only a few places I can agree that firearms should not be allowed.

[Leader]

Instead of choosing classes of people to allow carry, they should be choosing places where ALL CPL holders Can carry. There are only a few places I can agree that firearms should not be allowed.

Pray tell, where are those & why not?

Myself, I think you should be able to carry anywhere & just not shoot people unless you have a good reason.

[PhotoTom]

Pray tell, where are those & why not?

Myself, I think you should be able to carry anywhere & just not shoot people unless you have a good reason.

NO!! There are certain places where a gun will just jump out of its holster and start shooting people randomly…
It is horrible when it happens…even the media won't publish those stories they're so bad.

[Leader]

NO!! There are certain places where a gun will just jump out of its holster and start shooting people randomly…
It is horrible when it happens…even the media won't publish those stories they're so bad.

(Have you been taking lessons?)

That is very good.

[PhotoTom]

(Have you been taking lessons?)

That is very good.

Thanks teach! :scholar:

[firespec35]

Hi yall,
Been a paramedic for a good long while and while I feel all CEZ should be removed let me give you my thoughts on this.

First it is another carve out. It structurally weakens the argument against CEZ.
Second My agency is working on different methods to keep us safe on scenes that go bad including training and other possible adjuncts. We all know and preach you cant carry a cop with you 24/7. Tazer was brought up then immediately shot down because its construed as a firearm, its Illegal for us to carry them in an ER. With this bill they may reconsider.
Most agencies wont ever allow their people to carry on duty with even this bill but its another step toward that.
I do have questions on the wording of the bill. It says "Medical First Responder" that actually is a state EMS license of a very basic level with EMT, Advanced EMT, and Paramedic above it. Does this mean only MFR can carry if this passes?

[Roundballer]

Instead of choosing classes of people to allow carry, they should be choosing places where ALL CPL holders Can carry. There are only a few places I can agree that firearms should not be allowed.
If we MUST be licensed to carry a concealed pistol in the State of Michigan, then that license should be valid for the ENTIRE State of Michigan. Not every where EXCEPT this building because of some count of chairs or that building because of how the owner makes his profit, or another building because sick people sleep there at night, etc.


Hi yall,
Been a paramedic for a good long while and while I feel all CEZ should be removed let me give you my thoughts on this.

First it is another carve out. It structurally weakens the argument against CEZ.
Second My agency is working on different methods to keep us safe on scenes that go bad including training and other possible adjuncts. We all know and preach you cant carry a cop with you 24/7. Tazer was brought up then immediately shot down because its construed as a firearm, its Illegal for us to carry them in an ER. With this bill they may reconsider.
Most agencies wont ever allow their people to carry on duty with even this bill but its another step toward that.
I do have questions on the wording of the bill. It says "Medical First Responder" that actually is a state EMS license of a very basic level with EMT, Advanced EMT, and Paramedic above it. Does this mean only MFR can carry if this passes?
This bill refers to a definition in law, MCL 333-20906 (http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-333-20906)

(8) "Medical first responder" means an individual who has met the educational requirements of a department approved medical first responder course and who is licensed to provide medical first response life support as part of a medical first response service or as a driver of an ambulance that provides basic life support services only. Medical first responder does not include a police officer solely because his or her police vehicle is equipped with an automated external defibrillator.
Does that cover your question?

[firespec35]

I read that. By that strict definition, all of EMS except MFRs are excluded. Kinda weird. Its kinda like saying police officers can carry but once you get promoted to Sgt or higher you cant.

[DEVIL DOG]

Instead of choosing classes of people to allow carry, they should be choosing places where ALL CPL holders Can carry. There are only a few places I can agree that firearms should not be allowed.

To clarify, not so much that I think there should be exceptions, Just saying they will never allow carry in a courtroom, jail, federal buildings, etc.

[Roundballer]

I read that. By that strict definition, all of EMS except MFRs are excluded. Kinda weird. Its kinda like saying police officers can carry but once you get promoted to Sgt or higher you cant.
Maybe you need to write to the sponsor and your own rep, and explain of the different categories of licensing for the medical response alphabet soup that you are stirring.

[Leader]

To clarify, not so much that I think there should be exceptions, Just saying they will never allow carry in a courtroom, jail, federal buildings, etc.

And why is that?

[PhotoTom]

And why is that?

There are bad people in those places…it makes no sense to have firearms around bad people.

[firespec35]

Maybe you need to write to the sponsor and your own rep, and explain of the different categories of licensing for the medical response alphabet soup that you are stirring.
Done
Emailed Jim Tedders and Pam Faris

[mitrail400ex]

I read that. By that strict definition, all of EMS except MFRs are excluded. Kinda weird. Its kinda like saying police officers can carry but once you get promoted to Sgt or higher you cant.

Technically, by definition, our Paramedic licensure grants all rights and powers permitted to lower level licensure. So, as a medic, you're also a Specialist, EMT, and MFR.

[firespec35]

Can you cite it? I know thats how it works, i just never knew the source. I just quickly perused PA 368 and couldnt find it.

[luckless]

I doubt this will go anywhere. I'll bet there are some good, well meaning individuals that have been trying to get this introduced for at least a year and a half. The only things we will get from the lame duck session are taxes, regulations, or spending (think medicaid).

[Giraffe45]

I don't know why this law doesn't get more support. An MFR class is like 60 hours.
Yes it is altruistic to say "all or nothing, we all should be able to carry in a pfz" and I agree with you. But if the PFZ is gonna die, it will die from a thousand cuts. If the bill was passed and several thousand people took the course (basic first aid knowledge) it might force their hand to change the bill. **** I could see some schools cashing in on this.

Just another thought

[PhotoTom]

I don't know why this law doesn't get more support. An MFR class is like 60 hours.
Yes it is altruistic to say "all or nothing, we all should be able to carry in a pfz" and I agree with you. But if the PFZ is gonna die, it will die from a thousand cuts. If the bill was passed and several thousand people took the course (basic first aid knowledge) it might force their hand to change the bill. **** I could see some schools cashing in on this.

Just another thought

The problem with the incremental thinking is, eventually…those who are not exempted are a small minority voice with no power while everyone else "got theirs" already.

Your point about taking a course that would qualify them for this exemption is interesting…though, if this bill goes anywhere, I suspect the language will be tweaked to make sure it only includes active government employed first responders...

[Giraffe45]

The problem with the incremental thinking is, eventually…those who are not exempted are a small minority voice with no power while everyone else "got theirs" already.

Your point about taking a course that would qualify them for this exemption is interesting…though, if this bill goes anywhere, I suspect the language will be tweaked to make sure it only includes active government employed first responders...

I agree that at some point we would have leftovers (people that don't have any exemption) I am just realizing that liberals understand that an end destination has many ways to get there. They want to ban guns, so they are looking at ammo bans, smart guns, legal attacks on gun companies, assault weapon bans, 47p, etc. they are always thinking of new ways to incrementally change the laws. We are her asking for all or nothing. I say we encourage the various exemptions, to the point that it becomes ridiculous and we force them to reevaluate the laws.
I don't see them putting in a government agency amendment to the bill. Easily 65% of your ems is private companies.

[SADAacp]

I agree that at some point we would have leftovers (people that don't have any exemption) I am just realizing that liberals understand that an end destination has many ways to get there. They want to ban guns, so they are looking at ammo bans, smart guns, legal attacks on gun companies, assault weapon bans, 47p, etc. they are always thinking of new ways to incrementally change the laws. We are her asking for all or nothing. I say we encourage the various exemptions, to the point that it becomes ridiculous and we force them to reevaluate the laws.
I don't see them putting in a government agency amendment to the bill. Easily 65% of your ems is private companies.

Can you explain the need for EMS to be exempt more than a 85-year-old Mrs Johnson? For every group of folks with badges, or patches, the possibility of a repeal becomes weaker.

[Giraffe45]

Can you explain the need for EMS to be exempt more than a 85-year-old Mrs Johnson? For every group of folks with badges, or patches, the possibility of a repeal becomes weaker.

I can't. But I can tell you that most of the guys working Detroit ems carry anyways and violate the law every damn day (I did). The more exemptions that we have the more we get away from the argument of "the police are trained better"
If we had half of the population able to do it, why wouldn't we get on board with the others having it?

How long have we been fighting for total repeal of PFZ? Where have we gotten with the "all or nothing" attitude? Maybe we need to shift our focus?

[DEVIL DOG]

I'd like to see a SIMPLE bill come out that would basically do away with MOST PFZ's. If there would be a requirement for an extra class or whatever to get the exemption, so be it. I just do not like the UN-fairness of a cut out for folks just because of what color uniform they wear, or what their job title is.

[Leader]

I'd like to see a SIMPLE bill come out that would basically do away with MOST PFZ's. If there would be a requirement for an extra class or whatever to get the exemption, so be it. I just do not like the UN-fairness of a cut out for folks just because of what color uniform they wear, or what their job title is.

Extra classes my .....

Our CPL is already way too expensive.
$100+ class that doesn't teach you anything followed by $115 license that has to be renewed every 5 yrs.
Extra classes are nothing more then a "Feel Good" thing for the anti's that they know accomplishes nothing other then eliminate some because of the cost & time.

Don't you already know not to just shoot people without justification?
Why do you need ANOTHER class to teach you that?

[Giraffe45]

Extra classes my .....

Our CPL is already way too expensive.
$100+ class that doesn't teach you anything followed by $115 license that has to be renewed every 5 yrs.
Extra classes are nothing more then a "Feel Good" thing for the anti's that they know accomplishes nothing other then eliminate some because of the cost & time.

Don't you already know not to just shoot people without justification?
Why do you need ANOTHER class to teach you that?

This is what I'm talking about. We want everything and will not compromise (granted we shouldn't have to, but we will not get everything we want)

[PhotoTom]

Don't you already know not to just shoot people without justification?
Why do you need ANOTHER class to teach you that?

So, you're in a bar and a drunk comes at you with a knife in an assaulting manner.
You'd probably be inclined to defend your life with deadly force…but that's where you're wrong!
You have to know the difference between a deadly assault and a drunk's deadly assault…he didn't mean it and wouldn't have killed you if he hadn't been drunk.

You're in an "entertainment" facility (seats 2,500+)…a guy comes in with a gun and starts shooting people. He's NOT ALLOWED to have a gun in there (he doesn't have the exemption on his CPL)…so he's already in a whole lot of trouble. If you had a gun…two wrongs don't make a right! Besides, he'd be denied his "due process" if you kill him.

There is a lot to learn about carrying in those places.

[Giraffe45]

So, you're in a bar and a drunk comes at you with a knife in an assaulting manner.
You'd probably be inclined to defend your life with deadly force…but that's where you're wrong!
You have to know the difference between a deadly assault and a drunk's deadly assault…he didn't mean it and wouldn't have killed you if he hadn't been drunk.

You're in an "entertainment" facility (seats 2,500+)…a guy comes in with a gun and starts shooting people. He's NOT ALLOWED to have a gun in there (he doesn't have the exemption on his CPL)…so he's already in a whole lot of trouble. If you had a gun…two wrongs don't make a right! Besides, he'd be denied his "due process" if you kill him.

There is a lot to learn about carrying in those places.
Drawing a gun in an entertainment facility is a no win situation more often than not. Even the cops that work that detail know better than to shoot a threat unless absolutely necessary.

[Leader]

This is what I'm talking about. We want everything and will not compromise (granted we shouldn't have to, but we will not get everything we want)

What do you call the classes, restrictions & license requirements we have now if not a "Compromise"?

[Giraffe45]

What do you call the classes, restrictions & license requirements we have now if not a "Compromise"?

I don't call it anything other than a hassle. The other side calls it "reasonable restrictions". They used incrementalism to get us to this point, we will have to use incrementalism to get us to constitutional carry with no restrictions.
We will not be able to throw a Hail Mary from one end zone to the other, we will get better results matching it down the field.

[Roundballer]

I don't call it anything other than a hassle. The other side calls it "reasonable restrictions". They used incrementalism to get us to this point, we will have to use incrementalism to get us to constitutional carry with no restrictions.
We will not be able to throw a Hail Mary from one end zone to the other, we will get better results matching it down the field.

You seem to not comprehend that there were no CFZs before there were "compromises" to get "shall issue" passed in '01. And we were promised at that time that these laws would be "fixed".

We are getting pretty tired of the concept that we need to COMPROMISE OUR RIGHTS to get any portion of a pro-2A bill passed.

[PhotoTom]

We are getting pretty tired of the concept that we need to COMPROMISE OUR RIGHTS to get any portion of a pro-2A bill passed.

"SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" (but when it is, we "compromise" to regain our given rights)

[Tallbear]

So, you're in a bar and a drunk comes at you with a knife in an assaulting manner.
You'd probably be inclined to defend your life with deadly force…but that's where you're wrong!
You have to know the difference between a deadly assault and a drunk's deadly assault…he didn't mean it and wouldn't have killed you if he hadn't been drunk.

You're in an "entertainment" facility (seats 2,500+)…a guy comes in with a gun and starts shooting people. He's NOT ALLOWED to have a gun in there (he doesn't have the exemption on his CPL)…so he's already in a whole lot of trouble. If you had a gun…two wrongs don't make a right! Besides, he'd be denied his "due process" if you kill him.

There is a lot to learn about carrying in those places.

Fixed it for you.

[wsr]

Drawing a gun in an entertainment facility is a no win situation more often than not. Even the cops that work that detail know better than to shoot a threat unless absolutely necessary.

Well he's shooting people... if that's not absolutely necessary what would be in your mind???

[Leader]

Drawing a gun in an entertainment facility is a no win situation more often than not. Even the cops that work that detail know better than to shoot a threat unless absolutely necessary.

Yes, you're probably right, the police would wait outside until the shooter ran out of ammo or killed himself.

[Giraffe45]

Well he's shooting people... if that's not absolutely necessary what would be in your mind???

Man with a knife? Man with a length of pipe? Etc

[wsr]

Man with a knife? Man with a length of pipe? Etc

What about it? Different scenario than what you responded to
The post you responded to said he was shooting people...

[Giraffe45]

What about it? Different scenario than what you responded to
The post you responded to said he was shooting people...

You do know that knives and lengths of pipe are lethal. That you could respond to them with a firearm?

[wsr]

You do know that knives and lengths of pipe are lethal. That you could respond to them with a firearm?

And you could even respond to a unarmed man with a firearm...what's your point???

[Grott]

You forgot "People of color".
Cool, I'm a color...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

[wizzi01]

You do know that knives and lengths of pipe are lethal. That you could respond to them with a firearm?

So is a punch. Just ask the ref at that one soccer game. So what's your point?

[45/70fan]

Whatever happened to the equal protection clause?

[DP425]

Whatever happened to the equal protection clause?

LOL.

You don't actually believe they meant it do you??

[luckless]

Whatever happened to the equal protection clause?

Oh, we're still all equal. It's just that some of us are more equal than the others.

[Kitgun]

Oh, we're still all equal. It's just that some of us are more equal than the others.

Some are not only more equal they are "Exempt" from the law.

[Roundballer]

They only have six more working days left, and this one hasn't gotten out of committee, much less over to the Senate.

Safe to assume that it is sine die.

[Leader]

They only have six more working days left, and this one hasn't gotten out of committee, much less over to the Senate.

Safe to assume that it is sine die.

It should.

[langenc]

I can't. But I can tell you that most of the guys working Detroit ems carry anyways and violate the law every damn day (I did). The more exemptions that we have the more we get away from the argument of "the police are trained better"
If we had half of the population able to do it, why wouldn't we get on board with the others having it?

How long have we been fighting for total repeal of PFZ? Where have we gotten with the "all or nothing" attitude? Maybe we need to shift our focus?

I mentioned it to my rep, mid summer. His position is--let all the carve outs go-then the last one will be easier.

Only problem is we have been at this for 15 YEARS and we are not really any closer than 2001.

Ill see what he says next time we meet.

What do your rep/senator think about this??

[langenc]

What do you call the classes, restrictions & license requirements we have now if not a "Compromise"?

I guess we could call em an infringement!!

[DTruck]

I mentioned it to my rep, mid summer. His position is--let all the carve outs go-then the last one will be easier.

I'm not believing that for one second.

[Kaeto]

I mentioned it to my rep, mid summer. His position is--let all the carve outs go-then the last one will be easier.

Only problem is we have been at this for 15 YEARS and we are not really any closer than 2001.

Ill see what he says next time we meet.

What do your rep/senator think about this??


Both of mine want the entire state to be a no guns zone.

[DEVIL DOG]

Frustrating isn't it ?

[kryl]

I want in.

Please add white people that can't dance to the bill!

or jump

[kryl]

I guess we could call em an infringement!!

:score:

[DandreyCustoms]

Just my 2 cents. I totally agree that we need to get rid of all PFZ's. That being said, this is my feeling on this. I am a firefighter and EMT-B. I have my CPL and carry on a regular basis. Our department is very small and we do not have people "on duty". We only get called out when we are needed. It is not uncommon to get called to a fire or car accident etc. while I am out away from my house, or even my vehicle. If I am carrying and the call is to a location that is a PFZ I have to either find somewhere to secure my firearm before I can respond, or not respond at all. This would eliminate the delay, or lack of response.

[luckless]

I don't think anyone should have to pay income taxes and the IRS should be abolished. To that end, please support HB 001. It will make it illegal for the government to collect income tax from me or my family in any way, shape or form. After this passes, we can all work together to make everyone equal to my family so that no one has to pay income taxes.

I hope I can count on your support, unless you hate freedom and love taxes.

[MI_XD]

I don't think anyone should have to pay income taxes and the IRS should be abolished. To that end, please support HB 001. It will make it illegal for the government to collect income tax from me or my family in any way, shape or form. After this passes, we can all work together to make everyone equal to my family so that no one has to pay income taxes.

I hope I can count on your support, unless you hate freedom and love taxes.

Hehe... so that is how it works! :deal2: :thup:

[wsr]

Just my 2 cents. I totally agree that we need to get rid of all PFZ's. That being said, this is my feeling on this. I am a firefighter and EMT-B. I have my CPL and carry on a regular basis. Our department is very small and we do not have people "on duty". We only get called out when we are needed. It is not uncommon to get called to a fire or car accident etc. while I am out away from my house, or even my vehicle. If I am carrying and the call is to a location that is a PFZ I have to either find somewhere to secure my firearm before I can respond, or not respond at all. This would eliminate the delay, or lack of response.

Leave it in your vehicle the firehouse

[kryl]

I don't think anyone should have to pay income taxes and the IRS should be abolished. To that ....

I hope I can count on your support, unless you hate freedom and love taxes.

Would be a good start

[AxlMyk]

An electrician at work felt the same way, so he had taxes stopped being taken from his paycheck.
IRS sat on it for many years, then decided to jump on him.
He ended up owing $100k.