C & R license

[irishgreek]

Hi all,

I have seen that having a C & R license is nice when purchasing old 'classic' firearms. Are they hard to acquire? Is it worth it, or a 'not really' kind of thing?

Thanks for your thoughts. (and sorry if this is the wrong discussion area to ask this.)

[CircuitRider]

I went down that path several years ago. Didn’t bother to renew when it expired. Record keeping isn’t really my strong point.

[Mark AP]

A few years ago it was worth it. The C&R market has become expensive. Just my 2 cents.

[jmonarch]

I let mine expire, too. Been thinking about getting one again. Last I knew it was only $30 for a three year license. If you save yourself one transfer fee per year it was worth it. Brownells and Midway used to offer discounts as well, but I'm not sure if they still do.

[Flash-hider]

Brownell does not a lot but a discount is a discount. Can't speak about Midway.

[Coctailer]

Do it.
The discounts at Brownells and Midway etc pay for it.

If some screaming deal comes along on a cool gun, you can snap it up and have it delivered to your door.

I would recommend EVERYONE get one. They are cheap, and easy to get.

If I ever retire form the firearms business, I will get one myself.

[dwcopple]

Not really worth it anymore. But it is dirt cheap to get and the Brownells discount has been spectacular for small parts etc when coupled with the free shipping offers

[qz2026]

If you are going to purchase C&R eligible fire arms, it makes no sense not to have a C&R. Unless you purchase from a retailer, transferring the piece from your FFL to you can range from $20-$50+. And if you purchase from a retailer, there is no requirement to fill out the 4473. You only do that once when you apply for your license. With a C&R there are no transfer fees and the weapon comes directly to your door. For those who complain that the surplus weapons are getting more expensive? I would ask, what isn't getting more expensive? And for those interested, anything manufactured during or before 1967 is now C&R eligible. I have recently purchased a number of very nice Colt revolves, manufactured in the 40's and earlier. All C&R. Mater of fact, I also purchased a very nice CZ-82 that was manufactured in 1994 but because a museum's letter that was forwarded to the BATF, indicating that they felt that the CZ-82 was a curio and relic, the BATF made this pistol a C&R.

Record keeping? A child could manage the 7 bits of information you need to purchase one and/or to sell one. You might want to keep the purchase record in your files for a lot of good reasons but there is no requirement from the BATF for a C&R holder to maintain those types of records.
Purchase information required to be maintained is:
1. Manufacturer (Importer in many cases)
2. Description of item
3. Serial Number
4. Type (rifle or handgun)
5. Caliber of item
6. Date you took possession
7. Name and address (or FFL License number) of the seller

Sales information required is:
1. Transaction Date
2. Name and Address or Name and License Number of the person you sold the weapon to
3. Date of Birth if Nonlicensee of the buyer
4. Driver's License Number or FFL Number of the buyer
5. For Transfers to Aliens, Documentation Used to Establish Residency

If selling to another C&R licensee, you will need a copy of their signed and dated license. If selling to a dealer FFL, the FFL# is sufficient. They are not required to provide a copy to the buyer. If selling FTF within Michigan, you must have the buyer's driver's license number (good idea to get a xerox of the license too). When licensed, any sale or purchase of a C&R weapon must be logged. This includes sales of any C&R eligible weapon you purchased prior to being issued the C&R.

So, a C&R is not just for dusty old relics, does not require extensive record keeping and that 50 year old clock continues to run every year. For example, the M-16's produced from 1964-1967 are now C&R eligible. Of course licensing laws may be a bit more stringent for these. This is much different from the antique law. That is a fixed date that basically indicates (from a Federal perspective) that any firearm made on or before 1898 is a non firearm and does not require a license to sell or purchase. Different states have different laws regarding this however. Michigan follow the Federal law in this matter. There are hopes that the antique laws will change and move forward in time from 1898.

The only downside to a C&R license is that you will spend more money than you would have if you didn't have a license..

[irishgreek]

Thank you all for the information. @qz2026, thanks that is a lot of good info.

[Coctailer]

qz2026, that was an awesome explanation!! Thanks!

C&R firearms are still a great value.
In 15 years, you will lament and say "I remember the days I could buy a Mosin Nagant 91/30 for only $250.

They always go up in value.

[oil dripper]

Do you still have to register a c&r pistol with MSP? If so, as I don't have a CPL do I need a purchase permit?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G530AZ using Tapatalk

[qz2026]

Interesting that you ask. I did a lot of research on this a few months ago. What it boils down to is no, you don’t need a permit to purchase or to register. I believe that I checked the state law and it did not indicate this was required. I believe the process is the same as for any FFL. An 01FFL just has to log the item in to their bound book and maintain “ownership” until such time as the sell it. Of course, there are other processes that come into play if, for example, the item is stolen or comes up missing. At the time I did my research, I was also a little concerned since I have acquired a number of C&R pistols in the last year.

[Jackam]

Do you have to do anything with your personal firearms (as far as documentation) if you get the C&R?

[Flash-hider]

........

[jmonarch]

Do you have to do anything with your personal firearms (as far as documentation) if you get the C&R?

I was told ( on the internet, so take it for what it's worth) that if you are going to sell a personal C & R item, you should log it into your book first and then log it out for the sale.

[Flash-hider]

If you have purchased a C&R qualifying firearm with your valid C&R License, that fire is logged in your bound book.

[qz2026]

Do you have to do anything with your personal firearms (as far as documentation) if you get the C&R?

See my post on 11/1, above

[Jackam]

See my post on 11/1, above

I read it 4 times. Still don't see the answer to my question. What am I missing?

If I have C&R items, and get a C&R license, do I have to document my personal firearms?

[DP425]

I read it 4 times. Still don't see the answer to my question. What am I missing?

If I have C&R items, and get a C&R license, do I have to document my personal firearms?

Disclaimer- I've never had an FFL of any kind, and haven't done extensive research into it.

That said, I've NEVER heard of ANY requirements that would see you mixing privately owned, pre license firearms into your FFL bound book. As a matter of fact, it would seem to be counter to the intent of the bound book, since they were never in anyway associated with the license in question... and that is the entire purpose of the bound book; to log and track all firearms which are associated with the FFL.

[Mark AP]

I read it 4 times. Still don't see the answer to my question. What am I missing?

If I have C&R items, and get a C&R license, do I have to document my personal firearms?

You don’t have to log in your current C&R’s but I believe if you sell one of your current c&r’s that you owned previously you must log it. You could always play it safe and log your items in as previously acquired... Why don’t you just go to the atf website and read it for yourself??? I would not take anyone’s “word” when it could be your butt on the line.. especially when there is a detailed guideline on their webpage.

[Coctailer]

I read it 4 times. Still don't see the answer to my question. What am I missing?

If I have C&R items, and get a C&R license, do I have to document my personal firearms?

No

[qz2026]

The answer is no. If HOWEVER you decide to sell any C&R weapon while you have a C&R license, you will have to book it out. If that this weapon was purchased prior to your C&R it doesn’t make any difference. If you sell it, it must be booked out and this includes pistols that are currently (or in the future) designated as C&R. This can either be listed in the BATF document or generally manufactaured 50 years ago or longer. Of course, any firearm manufactured prior to 1898 would be considered an Antique and not C&R.

[MichMass]

Alright, I've been clicking around on the ATF site trying to find the C&R application and process. I am a nitwit that can't find what I'm looking for but can find answers to questions I'd never ask about explosives, arson, alcohol, etc. Can anybody tell me where to go, I've been to Hell already. Thanks in advance.

[MJ0865]

The forms can be downloaded here.

ATF F 5310.12/5310.16 (Form 7/7CR (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/form-7-7-cr-application-federal-firearms-license-atf-form-531012531016/download)) - Application for Federal Firearms License
Part B - Responsible Person Questionnaire (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/form-7531012a-7cr531016-responsible-person-questionnaire-supplement-use/download) - Application for Federal Firearms License Supplement
FD-258 (Fingerprint Card) (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/finger-print-card-instructions-and-example-fd-258/download) Instructions and Example

You can also request ATF mail you the forms.
here: https://www.atf.gov/distribution-center-order-form

[MichMass]

Thank you very much.

[CyborgHunter]

Sent in my application for a C & R (type 3 FFL) on Jan 30th.
Let's see how long it takes for it to be approved, or rejected.

[Rootsy]

C&R is easy to acquire. I had one, let it lapse a few years, renewed and then let it lapse. I don’t buy enough C&R firearms to make it worthwhile. Grafs dealer acct is nice but you have to purchase $2k worth of stuff a year to maintain it.

If you can acquire a CPL then you can get a C&R.

[CyborgHunter]

Sent in my application for a C & R (type 3 FFL) on Jan 30th.
Let's see how long it takes for it to be approved, or rejected.

Still waiting................

[fw0270]

If you are going to purchase C&R eligible fire arms, it makes no sense not to have a C&R. Unless you purchase from a retailer, transferring the piece from your FFL to you can range from $20-$50+. And if you purchase from a retailer, there is no requirement to fill out the 4473. You only do that once when you apply for your license. With a C&R there are no transfer fees and the weapon comes directly to your door. For those who complain that the surplus weapons are getting more expensive? I would ask, what isn't getting more expensive? And for those interested, anything manufactured during or before 1967 is now C&R eligible. I have recently purchased a number of very nice Colt revolves, manufactured in the 40's and earlier. All C&R. Mater of fact, I also purchased a very nice CZ-82 that was manufactured in 1994 but because a museum's letter that was forwarded to the BATF, indicating that they felt that the CZ-82 was a curio and relic, the BATF made this pistol a C&R.

Record keeping? A child could manage the 7 bits of information you need to purchase one and/or to sell one. You might want to keep the purchase record in your files for a lot of good reasons but there is no requirement from the BATF for a C&R holder to maintain those types of records.
Purchase information required to be maintained is:
1. Manufacturer (Importer in many cases)
2. Description of item
3. Serial Number
4. Type (rifle or handgun)
5. Caliber of item
6. Date you took possession
7. Name and address (or FFL License number) of the seller

Sales information required is:
1. Transaction Date
2. Name and Address or Name and License Number of the person you sold the weapon to
3. Date of Birth if Nonlicensee of the buyer
4. Driver's License Number or FFL Number of the buyer
5. For Transfers to Aliens, Documentation Used to Establish Residency

If selling to another C&R licensee, you will need a copy of their signed and dated license. If selling to a dealer FFL, the FFL# is sufficient. They are not required to provide a copy to the buyer. If selling FTF within Michigan, you must have the buyer's driver's license number (good idea to get a xerox of the license too). When licensed, any sale or purchase of a C&R weapon must be logged. This includes sales of any C&R eligible weapon you purchased prior to being issued the C&R.

So, a C&R is not just for dusty old relics, does not require extensive record keeping and that 50 year old clock continues to run every year. For example, the M-16's produced from 1964-1967 are now C&R eligible. Of course licensing laws may be a bit more stringent for these. This is much different from the antique law. That is a fixed date that basically indicates (from a Federal perspective) that any firearm made on or before 1898 is a non firearm and does not require a license to sell or purchase. Different states have different laws regarding this however. Michigan follow the Federal law in this matter. There are hopes that the antique laws will change and move forward in time from 1898.

The only downside to a C&R license is that you will spend more money than you would have if you didn't have a license..

Hello,
would you be kind enough to let us know where you like to puchase from. Maybe even a small list. (I just recently recieved mine)

[GreaseMonkeySRT]

If you obtain a C&R license, purchase a C&R firearm through that license, and then decide to keep it for a personal collection, would it then be "resold" to yourself from the license? Or are you and the license one in the same? Maybe I'm confusing this with LLC to personal.

[CyborgHunter]

Hello,
would you be kind enough to let us know where you like to puchase from. Maybe even a small list. (I just recently recieved mine)

How long did it take for your license to be approved?
I've been waiting for over a month now.

[fw0270]

3 weeks. I could not believe it. That was about 5 months ago.

[CyborgHunter]

3 weeks. I could not believe it. That was about 5 months ago.

Five weeks and counting for me. Hmmm....???

[Roundballer]

Hmmm....???

Double Secret background check.

[fw0270]

OOH, my friend had on of those once, involved a cavity search.

[Roundballer]

OOH, my friend had on of those once, involved a cavity search.

The whole speech I stole that from included the phrase "stepping on balls"!

[fw0270]

Ha. This went on a ride to funny town. Toot-toot.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[qz2026]

Hello,
would you be kind enough to let us know where you like to puchase from. Maybe even a small list. (I just recently recieved mine)

Sorry it took so long... But, I purchase C&R weapons everywhere. Some likely candidates are:
1. Pawn Shops
2. GunBroker
3. Forums like this with Want To Sell areas.
http://www.russian-mosin-nagant-forum.com/ (Need ID before given access to that thread)
http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?75-The-Trader-WTS-and-WTT-listing-board
4. Armlist but prices are crazy and lot of issues
5. themosincrate.com
5. There is really a lot of online resources.

Most important is that you know what you are looking for. This means a knowledge of what is being sold and having an idea what they are worth. There is no use in over paying for a C&R weapon. I would really recommend getting an id on GunBroker.com. You can track guns that interest you and find out exactly what they sell for. If you watch them then you can either bid or see what they sell for. You can also do a search on "completed" items and know exactly what they sold for. Knowledge of what you are looking for is key.

Feel free to PM me or other members and ask questions first. If I can't answer the question, I'll find someone who does.

[fw0270]

Sorry it took so long... But, I purchase C&R weapons everywhere. Some likely candidates are:
1. Pawn Shops
2. GunBroker
3. Forums like this with Want To Sell areas.
http://www.russian-mosin-nagant-forum.com/ (Need ID before given access to that thread)
http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?75-The-Trader-WTS-and-WTT-listing-board
4. Armlist but prices are crazy and lot of issues
5. themosincrate.com
5. There is really a lot of online resources.

Most important is that you know what you are looking for. This means a knowledge of what is being sold and having an idea what they are worth. There is no use in over paying for a C&R weapon. I would really recommend getting an id on GunBroker.com. You can track guns that interest you and find out exactly what they sell for. If you watch them then you can either bid or see what they sell for. You can also do a search on "completed" items and know exactly what they sold for. Knowledge of what you are looking for is key.

Feel free to PM me or other members and ask questions first. If I can't answer the question, I'll find someone who does.Awesome. Thanks

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[CyborgHunter]

Five weeks and counting for me. Hmmm....???

Just got this yesterday from our friends at the ATF:

FFLC@usdoj.gov
5:13 PM (19 hours ago)

Good afternoon.
Thank you for contacting the ATF Federal Firearms Licensing Center.
Your license was issued and mailed on 3/8. You should receive it this week.

Sincerely,

Lori E. Downes
ATF Specialist

[qz2026]

Just got this yesterday from our friends at the ATF:

FFLC@usdoj.gov
5:13 PM (19 hours ago)

Good afternoon.
Thank you for contacting the ATF Federal Firearms Licensing Center.
Your license was issued and mailed on 3/8. You should receive it this week.

Sincerely,

Lori E. Downes
ATF Specialist

:tapdance:

Congrats!

[wpd8689]

I would also add:
J&G Sales
Southern Ohio Gun
Century Arms

Also, if you are on Facebook, join the curio and relics collector (CRuFFLers) group. Lots of good information there.