93 Spanish Mauser

[fw0270]

Hello everyone,
I have searched for 3 hours on my 93, everyone in the world has a differnt view on safety and load data.
Does anyone here have actual experience with the rifle and hand loads?

Thanks.

[wombat12]

7x57 Mauser or 7.62x51 NATO?

[10x25mm]

A matching number Spanish Model 1893 rifle or Model 1916 carbine should be safe to shoot after it is inspected, with several caveats:

The Spanish Model 1893 Mausers do not have the safety lug introduced in the Mauser Model 1898 rifle action. You must have the headspace of your rifle checked by a competent gunsmith, and both the bolt and the receiver MT (magnetic particle) tested before you shoot it. I have never encountered cracked receivers in original Spanish rifles, but I have seen cracked bolts. The bolt cracking in each case seemed to have occurred after the rifles arrived in America.

There are several issues with loading and shooting Model 1893's, at least from the American perspective. Most Spanish produced Model 1893's will have 0.287 - 0.288 inch groove diameters, which is significantly larger than the 0.284 inch diameter bullets available to American handloaders. These rifles shoot long 175 grain, 0.284 inch diameter bullets fairly well, but do not shoot lighter, shorter 0.284 inch diameter bullets well at all. Slugging your bore to determine its groove diameter is well worth the effort.

The Spanish loadings for the 7x57mm cartridge at the time most Model 1893's were made was a relatively low pressure loading, and pressures were further reduced by the oversized groove diameter. Several references I have seen in the Spanish language indicate that the maximum chamber pressures of Spanish military loads were held to 2,500 bar maximum, or about 36,000 cup. American factory 7x57mm cartridges are loaded to a maximum average pressure of 46,000 cup with a probable upper bound of 48,900 cup. Don't use American made 7x57mm factory cartridges in a Model 1893.

As slower burning powders became available after WW I, the Spanish increased the diameters of the bullets they loaded - but they kept the chamber pressures low. At the same time, they adopted spitzer profile bullets. The standard Spanish load before WW I was a 173 grain round nose cupronickel jacketed bullet of 0.282 inch diameter launched at 2,300 fps.

I load only unsized, lubed, gas checked, Lyman 287405, 150 grain cast bullets in 7x57mm cartridges to be shot in my Model 1893 and Chilean Model 1895. Lyman no longer makes this mould, so my load will be of little use to you. Friends of mine load 175 grain Remington CoreLokt jacketed bullets of 0.284 diameter with modest charges of IMR 4831. They get reasonable accuracy and match the 2,300 fps velocity of Spanish military loads so the rifles shoot to the sights.

[fw0270]

7x57 Mauser or 7.62x51 NATO?

Sorry forgot the most important info.
7.62x51

[fw0270]

A matching number Spanish Model 1893 rifle or Model 1916 carbine should be safe to shoot after it is inspected, with several caveats:

The Spanish Model 1893 Mausers do not have the safety lug introduced in the Mauser Model 1898 rifle action. You must have the headspace of your rifle checked by a competent gunsmith, and both the bolt and the receiver MT (magnetic particle) tested before you shoot it. I have never encountered cracked receivers in original Spanish rifles, but I have seen cracked bolts. The bolt cracking in each case seemed to have occurred after the rifles arrived in America.

There are several issues with loading and shooting Model 1893's, at least from the American perspective. Most Spanish produced Model 1893's will have 0.287 - 0.288 inch groove diameters, which is significantly larger than the 0.284 inch diameter bullets available to American handloaders. These rifles shoot long 175 grain, 0.284 inch diameter bullets fairly well, but do not shoot lighter, shorter 0.284 inch diameter bullets well at all. Slugging your bore to determine its groove diameter is well worth the effort.

The Spanish loadings for the 7x57mm cartridge at the time most Model 1893's were made was a relatively low pressure loading, and pressures were further reduced by the oversized groove diameter. Several references I have seen in the Spanish language indicate that the maximum chamber pressures of Spanish military loads were held to 2,500 bar maximum, or about 36,000 cup. American factory 7x57mm cartridges are loaded to a maximum average pressure of 46,000 cup with a probable upper bound of 48,900 cup. Don't use American made 7x57mm factory cartridges in a Model 1893.

As slower burning powders became available after WW I, the Spanish increased the diameters of the bullets they loaded - but they kept the chamber pressures low. At the same time, they adopted spitzer profile bullets. The standard Spanish load before WW I was a 173 grain round nose cupronickel jacketed bullet of 0.282 inch diameter launched at 2,300 fps.

I load only unsized, lubed, gas checked, Lyman 287405, 150 grain cast bullets in 7x57mm cartridges to be shot in my Model 1893 and Chilean Model 1895. Lyman no longer makes this mould, so my load will be of little use to you. Friends of mine load 175 grain Remington CoreLokt jacketed bullets of 0.284 diameter with modest charges of IMR 4831. They get reasonable accuracy and match the 2,300 fps velocity of Spanish military loads so the rifles shoot to the sights.

Thank you,
keep the pressure low, got it.

[10x25mm]

Sorry forgot the most important info.
7.62x51

You have a Spanish Model FR-7. These were converted from late production Model 1916 carbines in the mid 1950's, not Model 1893 rifles. The Model 1893 rifle was not found suitable for conversion to the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge. The FR-7's were developed for the Spanish T-55 and [CETME] CSM-003 low pressure versions of the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge. These were referred to as the "Cartucho 7.62x51mm NATO-ESPAÑOL". FR-7's were withdrawn from GC and training service when final stocks of the T-55 cartridge were depleted in the mid 1980's. Spain did not officially adopt the full pressure 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge and purge their logistics system until 1988.

[fw0270]

You have a Spanish Model FR-7. These were converted from late production Model 1916 carbines in the mid 1950's, not Model 1893 rifles. The Model 1893 rifle was not found suitable for conversion to the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge. The FR-7's were developed for the Spanish T-55 and [CETME] CSM-003 low pressure versions of the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge. These were referred to as the "Cartucho 7.62x51mm NATO-ESPAÑOL". FR-7's were withdrawn from GC and training service when final stocks of the T-55 cartridge were depleted in the mid 1980's. Spain did not officially adopt the full pressure 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge and purge their logistics system until 1988.

Im not being funny, what information should I take from you post? That I am good to go due to it being a 308 coverstion of the 1916?.

[10x25mm]

Im not being funny, what information should I take from you post? That I am good to go due to it being a 308 coverstion of the 1916?.

FR-7's should not be fired with full power 7.62x51mm NATO or .308 Winchester cartridges. The FR-8, based on the Spanish Model 1943 rifle, is safe to use with full power 7.62x51mm NATO and .308 Winchester cartridges.

American factory .308 Winchester cartridges are loaded to a maximum average pressure of 52,000 cup with a probable upper bound of 55,300 cup. The pressures allowed for 7.62x51mm M80 NATO cartridges are even higher, but stated in piezo units. Don't have any Spanish reference to the maximum pressures allowed for the T-55 and CSM-003 low pressure versions of the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge, but it is safe to assume that they are not far off the 36,000 cup maximum pressure of Spanish military 7x57mm cartridges.

[fw0270]

FR-7's should not be fired with full power 7.62x51mm NATO or .308 Winchester cartridges. The FR-8, based on the Spanish Model 1943 rifle, is safe to use with full power 7.62x51mm NATO and .308 Winchester cartridges.

American factory .308 Winchester cartridges are loaded to a maximum average pressure of 52,000 cup with a probable upper bound of 55,300 cup. The pressures allowed for 7.62x51mm M80 NATO cartridges are even higher, but stated in piezo units. Don't have any Spanish reference to the maximum pressures allowed for the T-55 and CSM-003 low pressure versions of the 7.62x51mm NATO cartridge, but it is safe to assume that they are not far off the 36,000 cup maximum pressure of Spanish military 7x57mm cartridges.

Sounds like I need to keep the cup at least 40 or below, hard to do with a 308 and 168gn bullet.

[10x25mm]

In August 2014, Hogdon issued a bulletin specifically on using reduced loads of H4895 in rifle cartridges:

https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/h4895-reduced-rifle-loads.pdf


HODGDON® H4895® REDUCED RIFLE LOADS
For Youth Hunting, Informal Target, and Plinking

Hodgdon Powder Company has found that H4895 can be loaded to reduced levels. H4895 was chosen because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly in reduced charges. To create reduced loads, the 60% formula is recommended.

Find the H4895 load in the Reloading Data Center (http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/) for your caliber and bullet. Take the maximum H4895 charge listed and multiply by 60% (.6). The load may be adjusted up from there to achieve the desired velocity and accuracy. This works only where H4895 is listed. DO NOT use in a cartridge where H4895 is not shown.

Example: 30-06 cartridge with 125 gr. Sierra SP bullet. Max load shown in the Reloading Data Center with H4895 is 53.7 grains. 53.7 X .6 = 32.2 grains. The shooter begins with this load, and may work up from there to obtain the desired velocity and
accuracy for his reduced load.

Call Hodgdon Powder Company if additional information is needed, 913-362-9455.

For .308 Winchester with a 168 grain bullet, the 60% charge of H4895 would be 25.8 grains. You will probably find that a 147/150 grain bullet would be better suited to your FR-7. For .308 Winchester with a 150 grain bullet, the 60% charge of H4895 would be 27.4 grains. The Powley Ballistic Computer (http://kwk.us/powley.html) says both these loads should be in the vicinity of 36,000 cup.

[wombat12]

Great info 10x25. You're my hero when it comes to a wide range of knowledge. I want to be just like you when I grow up (I'm 67 :-D}. If I remember correctly, some
M1916 short rifles were converted to 7.62x51 without the FR7 treatment. I've seen arguments that the M93 based actions are strong enough for .308 ammo. But the question is are they safe enough? The gas handling of the M93/95s is poor by the standards of the M98 Mauser. Blown primers or case separation are a much bigger problem.

[10x25mm]

If I remember correctly, some M1916 short rifles were converted to 7.62x51 without the FR7 treatment. I've seen arguments that the M93 based actions are strong enough for .308 ammo. But the question is are they safe enough? The gas handling of the M93/95s is poor by the standards of the M98 Mauser. Blown primers or case separation are a much bigger problem.

Not aware of any Model 1916's converted to 7.62x51mm without the full FR-7 treatment, but several thousand were just rebarreled to 7.92x40mm (the long, aluminum core bullet CETME experimental cartridge) in 1952 for troop trials while the bugs were still being worked out of the CETME assault rifle design. They probably rebarreled more Model 1916's to 7.62x40mm in 1954 when CETME modified their innovative cartridge to deflect criticism from Geneva Convention signatories. Both of these cartridges were low pressure numbers which relied on extraordinary ballistic coefficients to achieve accuracy and lethality at 1,000 meters.

The Model 1893 design is sufficient to handle the 7.62x51mm cartridge, but only if steelmaking, forging, and heat treatment were done properly - to design intent. The critical dimensions are more or less identical to the later Model 1898 small ring Mauser action. Most of the Model 1893 and Model 1916 rifles were made before the adoption of modern analytical chemistry or thermocouple pyrometry, so steelmaking, forging, and heat treatment were always dicey. How Springfield and Rock Island got in trouble with 'low number' Model 1903's in 1917.

Pushing any of the early Spanish bolt guns doesn't make sense when you can purchase a much cheaper Savage Axis or Ruger American which you can push with total confidence. Trying to keep my fellow shooters whole and uninjured 8).

[wombat12]

Appears my memory hasn't failed me yet. There are several M1916 short rifles on Gunbroker in 7.62x51 without the FR7 treatment.Found an old discussion of this issue:

https://www.ar-15.co/threads/29578-Spanish-M1916-Mauser-in-308-Safe-unsafe-investigation

In spite of this, I'm with 10x25 and would prefer to er on the side of caution.

[10x25mm]

Appears my memory hasn't failed me yet. There are several M1916 short rifles on Gunbroker in 7.62x51 without the FR7 treatment.Found an old discussion of this issue:

https://www.ar-15.co/threads/29578-Spanish-M1916-Mauser-in-308-Safe-unsafe-investigation

Found a short, five chapter book published on a Spanish web site which details the Model 1916 conversions to 7.62x51mm in its third chapter on page 21. It is written in English. The author refers to these carbines as 'musketoons':

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/index.asp
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/chapter1CF.pdf
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/chapter2CF.pdf
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/chapter3CF.pdf
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/chapter4CF.pdf
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/chapter5CF.pdf


THE SPANISH MAUSER FAMILY...A history with multiple sources
Hector J. Meruelo - Miami, Florida - June 2014

Page 21

....In the 1950s about 55,000 M.1916 Musketoons were converted to 7.62 mm NATO or CETME caliber at the Oviedo Factory (No. OT6276 in my collection) and in the 1960s another 25,000 were so converted for the Guardia Civil, these last ones bearing that Corp’s crossed sword and fasces emblem on the receiver (No. Z915 in my collection, also bearing an issue number 991).....

Never knew about these before. Meruelo does not comment on the safety of firing these rifles with full power 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition. They were converted, however, when the Spanish were issuing the reduced pressure Cartucho 7.62x51mm NATO-Español exclusively.

[wombat12]

Another informative site:

http://masterton.us/Spanmauhome

[fw0270]

Great info, thanks, guys.

[Shooter McNasty]

you could just rebarrel it the 450 bushmaster and shoot lots of deers and such...

[wombat12]

you could just rebarrel it the 450 bushmaster and shoot lots of deers and such...

Not worth the expense.

[Shooter McNasty]

less then 200 bux....If you did it your self

[fw0270]

Appears my memory hasn't failed me yet. There are several M1916 short rifles on Gunbroker in 7.62x51 without the FR7 treatment.Found an old discussion of this issue:

https://www.ar-15.co/threads/29578-Spanish-M1916-Mauser-in-308-Safe-unsafe-investigation

In spite of this, I'm with 10x25 and would prefer to err on the side of caution.

I did some research based on everyone's help and wanted you guys to know that mine does not have the FR7 upgrade. Not sure how that affects mine. I am still somewhat confused. I do know my bolt is bent and I have the gas relief hole, which is more of a slot, on the left side of the action forward towards the barrel.
I do have the 7.62x51

[qz2026]

I've got a variety of Spanish 7mm rifles from the 1893 battle rifle, an 1895 Carbine and various 1916's. All eat PPU, surplus and my middle of the road hand loads with no issues. I've never had a desire to shoot any other commercial ammo out of them.

I do have a couple of Mausers, one a 1916 Civil Guardia and and Chilean 1912/61 that are chambered in 7.62. I haven't shot them yet but they have arsenal matching bolts and have passed headspace. For sure I will only use NATO spec cases and will probably load down my hand loads for these rifles but, I suspect, they would shoot the Lake City 7.62 NATO without any issues other than a sore shoulder.

[dirtmcgirt76239]

I scanned the posts, I did not see anyone mention white labratories was contracted by the important company when they imported these way back when, at least 10-15 years ago, to proof the barrels for their failure pressure. Look it up, they passed way above factory off the shelf and military 308/7.62x51.

[Danny Militaria]

I've got a variety of Spanish 7mm rifles from the 1893 battle rifle, an 1895 Carbine and various 1916's. All eat PPU, surplus and my middle of the road hand loads with no issues. I've never had a desire to shoot any other commercial ammo out of them.

I do have a couple of Mausers, one a 1916 Civil Guardia and and Chilean 1912/61 that are chambered in 7.62. I haven't shot them yet but they have arsenal matching bolts and have passed headspace. For sure I will only use NATO spec cases and will probably load down my hand loads for these rifles but, I suspect, they would shoot the Lake City 7.62 NATO without any issues other than a sore shoulder.

I would be interested to see pictures of your 1916 Civil Guardia Mauser. I am a WW1 militaria collector.

[qz2026]

I would be interested to see pictures of your 1916 Civil Guardia Mauser. I am a WW1 militaria collector.

My only problem with this one is that it was scrubbed. But pretty nice though. I'm still on the look out for a nice one in 7mm.
101416

My old one that I sold was better

101417

I really liked this one too...

101418

But the last two went with my collection when I sold it in July of 2020