Why "budget" security isn't really secure

[castrotikon]

Ran into this last night when I was cleaning out my place in preparation for moving and thought it'd be an fun story to share:

I ordered a large, heavy duty Browning safe a while back, very happy with the quality of it, and the company I ordered it from threw in one of those small Fortress 4 button electronic combo safes for free, big enough to fit a full size handgun and a few mags. I figured, whatever, I probably won't use it, but it's free so I guess I can't complain. It sat under my bed, empty, for over a year. I was going to get rid of it yesterday and wanted to see if I had left anything in it first. Couldn't find the key, couldn't remember my combo either so I tried a few I thought it might be. After 4-5 tries, the built in "alarm" started going off. I promptly picked it up and dropped it on the carpeted floor from a height of about a foot and a half. Alarm stopped (I found out later it was because the battery cover inside had popped off and the batteries fell out). I still wanted in and thought what the heck, I don't care about this thing anyways and now I'm curious to see how tough it really is. So, I went into the other room, grabbed a hammer and my AR15 multi tool, wedged the screwdriver end in between the frame and the door, gave it a couple taps, and pried it open. Took me about 15-20 seconds and that was without a crowbar.

I realize this Fortress lockbox is on the extreme end of "budget conscious" but they still go for around $100 (which seems like a waste after this, glad I never paid for one). Point of the story is, people often skimp on low end security hardware thinking they're getting a great deal when in reality, they're getting junk. I also realize not everyone can afford to drop $2-3k on a nice safe but if you can't afford something solid now, don't waste the money you do have on something that is barely going to slow someone down.

[Sledhead]

I have an l cheapo screwed down in my room.

By all means it's not going to keep any thief out but it will keep my carry out of the hands of a four year old.

[LivoniaDan]

There are YouTube videos of many of these cheap versions opened buy moving a strong magnet on the front around the mechanism.


I have an l cheapo screwed down in my room.

By all means it's not going to keep any thief out but it will keep my carry out of the hands of a four year old.

I'd say Me Too... but that might start an argument.... :roll:
( I mean keeping the kiddies out)

[Preacherboy]

Like sledhead I always thought they were to prevent children from getting guns not thieves.

[dirtmcgirt76239]

Watch vids of how easy it is to bust open a 1500 stackon, a 2k browning, a 2500 cannon etc.

They bust open as well, albeit harder.

Its a mitigation thing. Even a stackon 85-150 steel gun locker not a safe, that will keep all but the most determined teen away. What are you going to to, take a 4 ft crow bar to your dads safe ? I have one to simply keep neices and nephews hands away.

Yours is better, but you really need to look at some youtube safe popper vids. This is reall hacky stuff, just hand tools, no torch, no grinders, no lifting it up on a hi-low and dropping it from 13ft. You can bust them open in minutes.

[Slossar1004]

I have an l cheapo screwed down in my room.

By all means it's not going to keep any thief out but it will keep my carry out of the hands of a four year old.

I’m another one of these. The odds of a home invasion are about as high as me winning the lottery. I use a monitored security system with two zones dedicated to the safe (the room it’s in and the safe itself) so I am aware of when anyone is near it; especially the kids. El cheapo is better than nothing and no rational person can debate that.

[LansingMI]

Just bought the stack on cheap one. At least I'm not the only one

[DrScaryGuy]

Most locks in general are more of an image of security than actual security.
1) you can take ANY house key, dremel it down, and make a "bump" key in a couple minutes... and that will open MOST home door locks.
2) most "office" type locks can easily be opened in seconds with paperclips. I've had a few occasions at work where we needed into a desk/file cabinet "NOW"... Well, they said they needed in "NOW", so I did what I can do to make that happen. Funny looks all around.
3) most electronic locks seem to be fundamentally flawed - they can frequently be tripped open with strips of tin foil.
4) I one time forgot the keys to my MASTER brand trigger locks - and I realized at the range... So I asked for paperclips, went out to the car, and came back in 2 minutes later with all my guns unlocked. Funny looks all around.
5) I would "NEVER" practice on other people's locks - that would be unethical... but most people's small locks can be opened in seconds if you know how they work. If I wanted to be unethical, I easily could have walked down the halls of the med school and popped open locker after locker, just to see if the new locks are as bad as the old locks. And that's without the shims made from pop cans that makes it even easier.
6) etc. there are international conferences and contests where people pop open locks without damaging them, just to show they can.

If you really want to be fascinated by ingenuity, start looking at the people who go around figuring out how to defeat top level building security...

[michaelm_ski]

ANY safe and or locking device is to keep honest people honest and to help keep things out of the hands of CHILDREN !

[DrScaryGuy]

ANY safe and or locking device is to keep honest people honest and to help keep things out of the hands of CHILDREN !

to be fair... when I was in 4th grade, I left my bike's cheap old chain lock open, and my sister changed the combination on me as a prank - I figured how to pick it just to spite her (which is also the reason I learned to play piano better than her). After I learned how easy it was to get into a lock that most people thought was "secure", I started looking at other locks around the house...
If you want to test how "child proof" something is, give it to a curious child.

[CyborgHunter]

My dad was an interesting character, with a checked past.
He started teaching me to pick and crack various locks when my age was still single digits. He took many of them apart to show me how they worked.
He never got formal training until after he retired.

[elwarpo]

I totally agree about cheap safes keeping kids out, but for people looking for security:

Even most "good safes" we buy are rated RSC (residential security containers), and all they have to do is withstand 5 minutes of attack with common burglar tools (prybar/punches...)

If you want secure, then you need a TL15 safe at a minimum. The safe is constructed of a minimum of 1" steel equivilent. This means a professional with proper tools (grinders/drills...) will take a minimum of 15 minutes to get in. This is 15 minutes with the tool on the safe, any time they are not actively attacking the safe (switch tools, changing blades, thinking what to do... is not counted. This is also by safe busting engineers who have access to the safe's blueprints and can disassemble the safe prior to the test to look for weaknesses. I consider a TL30 (30 minutes, not 15) a good compromise on weight, protection and cost.

The sad part is a real safe TL30 is not that much more expensive than the crappy gunsafes we buy. A nice browning/amsec/liberty is $3-4K, A TL 30 used (plenty of them around) can be had in the same price range.

I never understood why someone would try to protect 10-20k in guns with a $300 cheap steel box.

[Leader]

I totally agree about cheap safes keeping kids out, but for people looking for security:

Even most "good safes" we buy are rated RSC (residential security containers), and all they have to do is withstand 5 minutes of attack with common burglar tools (prybar/punches...)

If you want secure, then you need a TL15 safe at a minimum. The safe is constructed of a minimum of 1" steel equivilent. This means a professional with proper tools (grinders/drills...) will take a minimum of 15 minutes to get in. This is 15 minutes with the tool on the safe, any time they are not actively attacking the safe (switch tools, changing blades, thinking what to do... is not counted. This is also by safe busting engineers who have access to the safe's blueprints and can disassemble the safe prior to the test to look for weaknesses. I consider a TL30 (30 minutes, not 15) a good compromise on weight, protection and cost.

The sad part is a real safe TL30 is not that much more expensive than the crappy gunsafes we buy. A nice browning/amsec/liberty is $3-4K, A TL 30 used (plenty of them around) can be had in the same price range.

I never understood why someone would try to protect 10-20k in guns with a $300 cheap steel box.

Because we have a LAW against taking things that don't belong to you & police to enforce those laws.

[elwarpo]

Because we have a LAW against taking things that don't belong to you & police to enforce those laws.

Shouldn't that be in purple for sarcasm? :cheers:

[Leader]

Shouldn't that be in purple for sarcasm? :cheers:

But it's a TRUE statement.

[AxlMyk]

Shouldn't that be in purple for sarcasm? :cheers:

Sarcasm? From Leader? No way.

[dirtmcgirt76239]

I totally agree about cheap safes keeping kids out, but for people looking for security:

Even most "good safes" we buy are rated RSC (residential security containers), and all they have to do is withstand 5 minutes of attack with common burglar tools (prybar/punches...)

If you want secure, then you need a TL15 safe at a minimum. The safe is constructed of a minimum of 1" steel equivilent. This means a professional with proper tools (grinders/drills...) will take a minimum of 15 minutes to get in. This is 15 minutes with the tool on the safe, any time they are not actively attacking the safe (switch tools, changing blades, thinking what to do... is not counted. This is also by safe busting engineers who have access to the safe's blueprints and can disassemble the safe prior to the test to look for weaknesses. I consider a TL30 (30 minutes, not 15) a good compromise on weight, protection and cost.

The sad part is a real safe TL30 is not that much more expensive than the crappy gunsafes we buy. A nice browning/amsec/liberty is $3-4K, A TL 30 used (plenty of them around) can be had in the same price range.

I never understood why someone would try to protect 10-20k in guns with a $300 cheap steel box.

do you have a link to a couple safes like the one you are speaking of ?

[michaelm_ski]

A safe / Lock only keeps the Honest Honest and NOTHING will stop the criminals from stealing , as far as keeping kids away from our firearms we need to do better education of firearms with the kids and not just let them be uninformed of the dangers and teach them safety and respect for the firearms .

[Tom S.]

I suspect you are far more likely to lose your guns to fire than theft. On the theft score, the majority of those are in-and-out and generally don't have the tools or knowledge to open anything in the "safe" category (something with locking pins and a hefty door).