Fire sprinkler near safe

[dirtyharry]

I am looking for a safe, and having a hard time coming to grips with getting one with a higher fire rating as they cost quite a bit more than ones with lesser ratings. I read an article online that suggested putting a fire sprinkler or two near your safe to provide fire protection and or improve the protection on a safe that it already fire rated. Has anyone heard of or done this. It seems like it may be worthwhile. Especially if there is already a waterline nearby. I figured I'd ask as I have zero knowledge of how effective those kind of sprinklers are.

[cmr19xx]

This is just my uneducated opinion so take it for what its worth, but I would think water could cause just as much damage as fire depending on what firearms are in the safe.

[Snowball]

Depending on what your water supply is near your safe, 1 or 2 heads might do it. A standard commercial 1/2" pendant sprinkler supplied with 7 P.S.I. from a minimum 1" line will put down .10 G.P.M. over an area 15'X15'. However most homes aren't piped with water lines that big.

You would need to determine your available piping size, pressure in the line & the area you would like to cover. Also look at what is in the area that might be considered an obstruction to the flow pattern developing. Once you have that basic information you can look at choosing a head and placement.

I would be happy to give you advice if you'd like to post pic of the area and dimensions of the safe you are considering.
If you haven't figured it out yet this is what I do for a living. :thumbup:

[dirtyharry]

This is just my uneducated opinion so take it for what its worth, but I would think water could cause just as much damage as fire depending on what firearms are in the safe.

That did cross my mind, but I figured that in the event of a fire, the hose(s) from the fire department would dump much more water into the basement than a couple sprinkler heads. For the cost of adding the sprinklers I figure it would be cheap insurance that COULD possibly keep the contents of the safe from being destroyed by the heat. Also, I can't imagine that much water would get into the safe if it was raining on it from above. I'd be more concerned with it rising from the floor up which would happen regardless in the event of a fire once the FD shows up.

[dirtyharry]

Depending on what your water supply is near your safe, 1 or 2 heads might do it. A standard commercial 1/2" pendant sprinkler supplied with 7 P.S.I. from a minimum 1" line will put down .10 G.P.M. over an area 15'X15'. However most homes aren't piped with water lines that big.

You would need to determine your available piping size, pressure in the line & the area you would like to cover. Also look at what is in the area that might be considered an obstruction to the flow pattern developing. Once you have that basic information you can look at choosing a head and placement.

I would be happy to give you advice if you'd like to post pic of the area and dimensions of the safe you are considering.
If you haven't figured it out yet this is what I do for a living. :thumbup:

I'd have to check on the piping diameter, although the pipe in the vicinity feeds an outside spigot and is at the end of the line opposite end of the basement from the meter so I am sure it is pretty small. Does 1/2" sound right?

How would I tell what the pressure is? I'm on Detroit water in Macomb county if that helps at all.

Coverage area is at most 9.5' x 12.5' and that area has block on 3 sides. The safe would likely go in the corner as I read that the exterior corners of areas generally stay cooler in a fire, or at least take longer to heat up. The basement over all is unfinished with maybe 7.5-8' (guessing) clearance from the floor to the bottom of the floor joists above. I was also planning on building shelves from 2x4s and ply next to and above the safe. Other than the shelves, there really wouldn't be any other obstructions (not ducting, other plumbing, etc). I'm not necessarily concerned with suppressing a fire in that area completely, more trying to keep temps down. The safe itself likely wouldn't be more than something like 42w x 22d x 60h.

That brings another thought of if keeping the temps down would inhibit the door seal of the safe from expanding? Not that you would have an answer to that, but I just popped into my head. What if I got a sprinkler with a higher trigger temp?

[Snowball]

I'd have to check on the piping diameter, although the pipe in the vicinity feeds an outside spigot and is at the end of the line opposite end of the basement from the meter so I am sure it is pretty small. Does 1/2" sound right?

1/2" is probably right.



How would I tell what the pressure is? I'm on Detroit water in Macomb county if that helps at all.

You can pick up a gauge that will go on your spigot outside @ Home Depot or Lowes I think.


Coverage area is at most 9.5' x 12.5' and that area has block on 3 sides. The safe would likely go in the corner as I read that the exterior corners of areas generally stay cooler in a fire, or at least take longer to heat up. The basement over all is unfinished with maybe 7.5-8' (guessing) clearance from the floor to the bottom of the floor joists above. I was also planning on building shelves from 2x4s and ply next to and above the safe. Other than the shelves, there really wouldn't be any other obstructions (not ducting, other plumbing, etc). I'm not necessarily concerned with suppressing a fire in that area completely, more trying to keep temps down. The safe itself likely wouldn't be more than something like 42w x 22d x 60h.


You want to place the head somewhere it will wet the safe so you will need to make sure your shelf isn't in the way for both the spray of water & heat collection. If heat can't collect @ the sprinkler head it won't go off, or it will go off later than intended. We usually want to put the heads within 12" of the "deck" or underside of your sub flooring for the floor above. You could attach drywall to the underside of the joists in the area if needed. That would allow you to to install the head @ a lower elevation.



That brings another thought of if keeping the temps down would inhibit the door seal of the safe from expanding? Not that you would have an answer to that, but I just popped into my head. What if I got a sprinkler with a higher trigger temp?

You could certainly get higher temp heads. The standard temps we usually work with are 155°F, 200°F & 286°F. You would need to check with the safe manufacturer on what temp is needed to seal the door and then choose a head accordingly, there are higher temps available if needed.


Please note fire sprinklers are designed to give people more time to get out of a burning structure. They are not designed to protect property. Many fires that have sprinkler heads deployed have more damage from water than the fire itself.

That said I understand what you are trying to do and it may work in your situation, keeping things a little cooler until the FD shows up. You need to consider if it is worth the extra cost to buy the fire rated safe over the cost of putting in a sprinkler head.

Also when putting a sprinkler head on a domestic water system you need to be aware that that piping wasn't designed to withstand a fire. The type of piping will mater if it's Pex or CPVC it may not last long enough to do you any good, copper or steel you would probably be alright.

Feel free to ask any other questions you have.

[BuddyChryst]

As Snowball has already indicated, automatic sprinklers are more about containing and buying time than extinguishing.

The other important thing to consider is the potential for creating a hazard in attempts to mitigate another. For example, if you have children, perhaps they're playing in the basement and happen to throw a toy that hits the head, breaking the bulb. Or your furnace goes out during a cold spell and the line freezes. Sure that can happen with pipes regardless, but the bulb is a weak spot. Often, you get ice in a line that breaks a head, but the ice plugs the hole. It's not until it thaws that water pours out.

Anyway, my point is not to overthink it. If you didn't think of sprinklers to protect your family, why would you think of them to protect your firearms?

[solarguy]

Lower cost fire rated safes typically use gypsum to achieve their modest fire resistance rating. A rule of thumb I have seen is each layer of drywall adds about 15 minutes to the fire rating.

Higher end safes use more exotic materials like kaowool, a ceramic insulation designed to resist high heat. Kaowool is not that expensive on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ceramic-Fiber-Blanket-2300F-6lb-Thermal-High-Temp-Insulation-1-x24-x25-Kaowool/252347274328?hash=item3ac111d458

One approach is to buy a safe "one size larger" and add a layer of kaowool and a layer of drywall or plywood, then cheap carpet to make it look factory.

[Garandsrus]

I would think that the ceramic insulation would make a great liner for a powder/primer storage magazine.

[solarguy]

FYI,don't keep significant amounts of powder/propellants in a gun safe. Powder magazines are designed to vent quickly rather than allow pressure to build up in a bad event. In a safe, the pressure could build up to the point where the safe becomes a bomb. Small amounts don't matter, but if you're a reloader and you have several 8 pound jugs of powder............

[dirtyharry]

Lower cost fire rated safes typically use gypsum to achieve their modest fire resistance rating. A rule of thumb I have seen is each layer of drywall adds about 15 minutes to the fire rating.

Higher end safes use more exotic materials like kaowool, a ceramic insulation designed to resist high heat. Kaowool is not that expensive on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ceramic-Fiber-Blanket-2300F-6lb-Thermal-High-Temp-Insulation-1-x24-x25-Kaowool/252347274328?hash=item3ac111d458

One approach is to buy a safe "one size larger" and add a layer of kaowool and a layer of drywall or plywood, then cheap carpet to make it look factory.


Wondering if rather than adding layers to the inside, would it make more sense to add layers to the outside? Build a box around the safe, line it with the ceramic wool then cover the outside with a layer or two of gypsum. Seems like it would make more sense to slow the steel from heating rather than let it heat and THEN try to slow it from transferring to the inside.

[Norton]

I would think unless you are building a fire resistant room for the safe the weakest point is still going to be the seal around the door.
If that fails the firearms are damaged,
I have seen guns that have been in safes when the house burned, pretty much junk.

[schwartzint1]

I would think its not cost effective to come up with a working suppression system for your home. I suppose it depends on the area you live? What their FD looks like as well as water supply. Typically security goes up when fire rating goes up also. I think it would be better to save the extra money up. I dont think you need to go crazy, but 45min seems more than reasonable if you have a good local FD.

[dirtyharry]

I would think its not cost effective to come up with a working suppression system for your home. I suppose it depends on the area you live? What their FD looks like as well as water supply. Typically security goes up when fire rating goes up also. I think it would be better to save the extra money up. I dont think you need to go crazy, but 45min seems more than reasonable if you have a good local FD.

There are multiple stations within 3-3.5 miles, with the closest being 1.3. I would think that the response is pretty good at that point. I suppose I have a tendency to over think things. Most of the safes I'm looking at have 60 min rating. I guess the bigger issue in the event of the fire is the water that will be sitting in the basement after the smoke clears. I'm not sure there really is a way to handle that, other than putting the safe somewhere other than the basement (which is not an option).

[toptech]

without revealing your identity, find out what the FD would do if they show up at a fire and find out guns, ammunition, powder, etc are in the structure.
some will back off and let it burn.

[dirtmcgirt76239]

This is just my uneducated opinion so take it for what its worth, but I would think water could cause just as much damage as fire depending on what firearms are in the safe.

yeah if its a big fire its going to be a total loss I think, the basement will be full of water and no one will dig them out for a long time.

It does not take much of a fire for everything in the house to be written off as a total loss by the insurance company.

[solarguy]

Wondering if rather than adding layers to the inside, would it make more sense to add layers to the outside? Build a box around the safe, line it with the ceramic wool then cover the outside with a layer or two of gypsum. Seems like it would make more sense to slow the steel from heating rather than let it heat and THEN try to slow it from transferring to the inside.

Steel is not a great heat conductor. Most house fires are over, one way or another, in under 30 minutes. https://www.thisoldhouse.com/ideas/what-really-happens-house-fire
Technically, you are correct though. And don't forget a good seal on the door. The ceramic rope that is used to seal woodstove doors would work. It takes a lot to survive a house fire.

[schwartzint1]

I think you have the answer. Water is more of an issue than fire. 60min should be good. Not getting a ton of heat under it on a concrete slab. Many companies put some type of weatherstrip that expands when heated in fire conditions in an attempt to keep water out. However I dont have real world knowledge on how well it works.