1911 in your ribs!

[karcent]

OK, you're standing around, having a conversation with a couple of good guys, and you feel something poking you in the ribs.
You look to see what it is, and HOLY *****, it's the business end of a 1911 held by the most retarded human that ever walked our planet, but it isn't cocked.
What do you do?

[Knimrod]

Grab the moron's gun and then pistol whip him with it. :freak: Call 911. While waiting for RA and police, continue the conversation. :gossip:

:naughty:

[ANIMAL]

but it isn't cocked

Shame on him. mine is.

[sprink]

Guess that question's been answered.
Greg

[Rob]

A 1911 uncocked is like carrying a revolver with no bullets.... I think you answered your own question stating this guy was the most retarded human that ever walked our planet

He deserves to get pistol whipped

[M1911A1]

but it isn't cocked


Shame on him. mine is.

Good answer! Mine is too!

[BigDaddy40]

Not cocked and in my ribs? He'd be walkin funny for the rest of his life

[58Sniper]

Karcent - you know my opinion on this already. But that boy would have been very close to having my 180gr Black Talon rounds coming his way. And since I carry 46 rounds of it, he'd receive more than just a round or two.

People like that need a good beating. Especially since that guy would probably be the type to carry a concealed gun into (or out of..) a Gibraltar gun show. :twisted:

I got your back, man.

[Kouger]

well....would have to take it away...and whip his ***** with it..then pull out my RI-60 in triplicate .......he would be more than happy to sign it over to me.....stupid dont mean i cant be compensated

[karcent]

This scenario actually happened this weekend. I won't go into all of the details, but I will tell you that my reaction was not what I think it should have been.
I was pretty shocked and VERY MAD! I bitched out the moron and walked away with no take-down, no punches thrown, no knees to the groin, no pistol whipping.
This event was quite an eye opener for me and it did do one positive thing. It convinced me that I need some serious training in the proper reaction to situations such as this.

[Kouger]

and you took his gun away right????????????????????


turned him into the cops????????

Please tell me you did mroe than yell?????????????

[Rob]

This scenario actually happened this weekend. I won't go into all of the details, but I will tell you that my reaction was not what I think it should have been.
I was pretty shocked and VERY MAD! I bitched out the moron and walked away with no take-down, no punches thrown, no knees to the groin, no pistol whipping.
This event was quite an eye opener for me and it did do one positive thing. It convinced me that I need some serious training in the proper reaction to situations such as this.

Please tell me this was not a legal carrying *******. Your alot calmer tempered than I am Kurt, I think I would have had to hurt him :evil:

[ANIMAL]

Glad your ok.

[gjgalligan]

Karcent,

I have one question: How deep did the fecal material get????

[karcent]

This scenario actually happened this weekend. I won't go into all of the details, but I will tell you that my reaction was not what I think it should have been.
I was pretty shocked and VERY MAD! I bitched out the moron and walked away with no take-down, no punches thrown, no knees to the groin, no pistol whipping.
This event was quite an eye opener for me and it did do one positive thing. It convinced me that I need some serious training in the proper reaction to situations such as this.

Please tell me this was not a legal carrying *****hole. Your alot calmer tempered than I am Kurt, I think I would have had to hurt him :evil:

That's my whole point, guys. If I was sitting here reading this thread I would be saying the same things you have posted, but this incident really happened and that's how I really reacted.

You can run scenarios in your mind all you want and they won't do you one bit of good. You really need to be confronted with these situations to know how you will react and I think you need to be trained to react.

It's one thing to be in a bad neighborhood and expect something to happen. It's quite another thing to be in a place where you feel relatively secure and suddenly have a pistol poking you in the ribs.

Yes Rob, this idiot apparently holds a CPL.

[GreggB]

Wow. This thread is a real eye opener. It is very easy to "Monday Morning Quarterback" but until you are in the situation your really do not know how you will react. I think Kurt is right here. More Training! Glad you are OK.

[M1911A1]

Wow. This thread is a real eye opener. It is very easy to "Monday Morning Quarterback" but until you are in the situation your really do not know how you will react. I think Kurt is right here. More Training! Glad you are OK.

It is good that all turned out well. It's also very true about this being an eye opener.
When faced with an unknown or unexpected situation we all freeze for a bit. Training is so we will react automatically rather that the "fight or flight" response kicking in.

[Kimber45]

Kurt,

I'm really glad that you're okay. Don't beat yourself up too much. I suspect that most people would recat differently than they would like to think they would. All of us need to consider training that involves "real-life" situations.

BTW, good thing it wasn't one of those DA Paras! :shock:

[ChrisBWJ]

I'm sorry to hear you went through this Karcent.

I've often thought about going through training on how to handle a situation such as this. Maybe I've read too many Tom Clancy books......

Even though this was supposedly a GG, it's probably a good thing that you didn't respond in a self-defense close contact manner. It could have gotten one or both of you hurt.

You are right however, it would be a good idea to get training on how to handle these situations.

Who puts on this type of training? Anybody in this area?

[Kimber45]

Contact Ian Kinder at LiveSafe Academy
Berkley (Classes available throughout South Eastern MI), MI
248-988-SAFE - VM
586-771-8487 (9am to 9pm)
586-279-5222 (Fax)

Ian is the State director for Education for MCRGO and his staff consists of several law enforcement trainers. He was responsible for the Regional Training Conference put on by the Wayne County Chapter of MCRGO that brought Lou Chiodo to Michigan for his first class put on for civilians.

LiveSafe has several Force-on-Force classes that put you into real life situations.

[glock99_10mm]

I'm sorry to hear you went through this Karcent.

I've often thought about going through training on how to handle a situation such as this. Maybe I've read too many Tom Clancy books......

Even though this was supposedly a GG, it's probably a good thing that you didn't respond in a self-defense close contact manner. It could have gotten one or both of you hurt.

You are right however, it would be a good idea to get training on how to handle these situations.

Who puts on this type of training? Anybody in this area?

Check out the training threads on this site...

Deputy and 58Sniper would gladly take your money and beat you into submission... :P

[ChrisBWJ]

I'll have to go back and look. But I thought those were more reactive shooting classes than unarmed self-defense.

I'd prefer to carry, but I won't always be able to. Even if you are carrying, it doesn't alway mean you can get to your weapon.

Oh as for Deputy and 58Sniper, they can beat me, as a long as I get to beat them back.... :lol:

[glock99_10mm]

I'll have to go back and look. But I thought those were more reactive shooting classes than unarmed self-defense.

I'd prefer to carry, but I won't always be able to. Even if you are carrying, it doesn't alway mean you can get to your weapon.

Oh as for Deputy and 58Sniper, they can beat me, as a long as I get to beat them back.... :lol:

never met Sniper..or you for that matter...

but i know you won't be beating on Deputy...I'm sure he can meet your needs for un-armed combat...matter of fact I'm sure he can un-arm both of your arms!

[ChrisBWJ]

never met Sniper..or you for that matter...

but i know you won't be beating on Deputy...I'm sure he can meet your needs for un-armed combat...matter of fact I'm sure he can un-arm both of your arms!

LOL!!

Well I hope it doesn't come to that!

(I guess I better start hitting the weight room again....)

[58Sniper]

Well, speaking as someone who was also involved in this (as Karcent is giving him a few words, this blockhead has his this .45 pointed at my skull), I can say that the man almost died where he was standing.

'Nuff said. Had he been 6 inches closer he'd have eaten some of the table.

Karcent - we'll hook up and get you going. Seriously. You've looked out for us (the wife really likes that thing), so I'll look out for you.

[ChrisBWJ]

If your going to put on a class, even if it's a small one, please post details or e-mail. I'd be interested.

[keyjockey]

Karcent,

I hope this wasn't at Gibraltar.

Was this a real confrontation or did the guy think he was being funny?

My immediate reaction would have been the same as yours. I'm sure I would have liked to disarm him, but that would depend on how threatening the situation was and whether he was just fooling around. I wouldn't try it if I perceived a threat....too easy for him to thumb cock the hammer.

After further reflection, I think I would have reported it along with your witnesses and had the guy's permit revoked. We don't need *****h*les like that screwing it up for the rest of us.

Glad to hear that you're OK.

[sprink]

I agree with Keyjockey, this moron should not own guns. Met a few as a hunter over the years. Careless or reckless is bad, that sounds felonious.

Greg

[karcent]

Yes, this happened at Gibralter. Apparently he just wanted to show me his pistol. You're right, he's to stupid to own and carry firearms.

This is the prime reason show promoters do not want to allow CCW in their shows. I know most of the people who participate on this board and the other one would never pull a stunt like this, but you have no idea how many more guys there are like this one out there.

[prettyinpink]

Yep, there sure are a lot of dummies out there! I finally bought my first pistol and have a lot to learn but I hope I learn faster than the two jerks I saw. Saturday morning was my first time helping out at the MCRGO table and we all saw some really stupid behavior.

A couple of guys checking out the rifles at the vendors table right in front of us. Granted I'm sure the vendor didn't have any ammo in them, but I know enough that you're suppossed to treat any gun as if it were loaded. These jerks were picking up rifles, checking them out and pointing it at everything and everybody they weren't suppossed to. If those weapons had been loaded they could have easily wiped out at least a dozen people, and right before they put down the last rifle and walked away, it was pointed at the back of a woman sitting in the aisle right behind that dividing wall...only two or three feet from the end of that barrel.

UNBELIEVABLE....these are the type that give the rest of the decent gun owners a bad rep...

[Rob]

Karcent,

Remember you owe this clown nothing and you would be doing all the honest hard working hard training CPL holders a big favor by turning this clown in. That goes for all of us we can't over look the fools among us as to not create a wave about CPL holders.

I understand you showing your restraint in a crowded room it is best to not exculate a situation and put other innocent folks in harms way. I think you did a brave thing not a FOOLISH THING.

We as a group need to police each other and show the community we are not above reporting bad conduct from a follish CPL holder.

I'm in your corner no matter what you decide.

Gary

[58Sniper]

Karcent,

My immediate reaction would have been the same as yours. I'm sure I would have liked to disarm him, but that would depend on how threatening the situation was and whether he was just fooling around. I wouldn't try it if I perceived a threat....too easy for him to thumb cock the hammer.

He could have been easily disarmed. Easily. Without further threat to Kurt, or myself. Disarming someone is much easier than most think it is. And the methods I teach are quick, very safe, and tactically sound.

Had this moron not been on the other side of a table, I'd of disarmed him myself.

I commend Karcent for his relatively cool composure on this. He didn't over-react.

[58Sniper]

Okay, I'm going to look for a place to put on a weapon retention/disarming class. All day class with a lunch (that may change...)

You will need an inert practice gun, such as a blue gun - http://www.blueguns.com/Handguns.htm. Class cost will either be cash, or a bluegun (I need some more, especially the Glocks). Cash cost will be the same as the bluegun cost. Your call. Inert gun must fit your CCW holster.

Comfortable clothing (jeans & t-shirt), no jewelry, watches, rings, etc. Long fingernails on women aren't recommended.

ABSOLUTELY NO LIVE WEAPONS/AMMO IN THE CLASS.

Maximum size of the class is going to be about 12 people.

[keyjockey]

Didja' ever notice the first thing that happens when many (most?) people at a gun show pick up a gun? FINGER GOES RIGHT INTO THE TRIGGER GUARD!

Knowledgeable gun owners want to stay away from this kind of person. An accident waiting to happen. Hopefully, morons like this will only end up hurting themselves and not innocent bystanders.

Not to belabor a point, but I assume that this guy at Gibraltar was NOT a vendor. His gun should have been unloaded and "zip-tied" at the door. In any case, a gun pointed at another person (loaded or not) should be grounds for eviction from the show at a MINIMUM.

I don't know how available (or empowered) the security people are, but you might want to locate them should you see this guy at future shows.

Stay safe.

[58Sniper]

He wasn't a vendor - he was a customer. And the gun went right into his strong-side leather paddle holster after the incident.

[karcent]

Okay, I'm going to look for a place to put on a weapon retention/disarming class. All day class with a lunch (that may change...)

You will need an inert practice gun, such as a blue gun - http://www.blueguns.com/Handguns.htm. Class cost will either be cash, or a bluegun (I need some more, especially the Glocks). Cash cost will be the same as the bluegun cost. Your call. Inert gun must fit your CCW holster.

Comfortable clothing (jeans & t-shirt), no jewelry, watches, rings, etc. Long fingernails on women aren't recommended.

ABSOLUTELY NO LIVE WEAPONS/AMMO IN THE CLASS.

Maximum size of the class is going to be about 12 people.

You know I'll be there!

[ChrisBWJ]

Count me in too!

[sprink]

Depending on the date, I would be interested also. Had a brief lesson on retention, and found working with my partner, it was almost easier to dis-arm, than retain. Interesting and really worthwhile stuff.

Greg

[karcent]

Karcent,

Remember you owe this clown nothing and you would be doing all the honest hard working hard training CPL holders a big favor by turning this clown in. That goes for all of us we can't over look the fools among us as to not create a wave about CPL holders.

I understand you showing your restraint in a crowded room it is best to not exculate a situation and put other innocent folks in harms way. I think you did a brave thing not a FOOLISH THING.

We as a group need to police each other and show the community we are not above reporting bad conduct from a follish CPL holder.

I'm in your corner no matter what you decide.

Gary

I will not be seeking charges against this idiot. I don't know his name. If I did pursue this, I could find out his name, but it wouldn't be pretty and I don't want to go that route.

Let's hope this guy starts thinking.

[Brian]

Count me in on the day of training. I'll take a day off work for this. I also have four blueguns we can use.
Post the date and time or send me an email.
I'm there. :D

[Rob]

Karcent,

Like I said I will be behind you no matter what you decide. I do understand your reluctance to go after this guy. Plus like the old saying (every dog has his day)

Gary

[ChrisBWJ]

Okay, I'm going to look for a place to put on a weapon retention/disarming class. All day class with a lunch (that may change...)

Any update on when/where??

[58Sniper]

I need to find a place to have the class, and polish off some stuff for shoulder holsters and such (the class I normally teach is for LEOs, and deals with openly carried weapons).

If anyone has a place to hold the class, I'd be greatful, and would give a free pass. Needs to hold 12 students and two instructors - with room to move around (people will be paired up).

[Kouger]

I need to find a place to have the class, and polish off some stuff for shoulder holsters and such (the class I normally teach is for LEOs, and deals with openly carried weapons).

If anyone has a place to hold the class, I'd be greatful, and would give a free pass. Needs to hold 12 students and two instructors - with room to move around (people will be paired up).

what day...( cant be a monday) i may have a building we can use ( small donation to the local football club may be a way in to it ) its not a big building but should hold 12 and 2 easy enough... ( we have 30 board members that meet in it)

its in taylor.....telegraph/ecorse area

[ChrisBWJ]

How big of an area do you think we need? Carpeted or concrete floors, does it make a difference?

I'll spook around and see if I can find something, if you guys don't mind making the haul out to Livingston or Washtenaw County.

Oh, the blue gun just arrived....

[58Sniper]

Okay. If it holds 30 people, it should be fine. I just don't people bumping into each other.

If you can find out the details, that'd be fine. It's a hike for me, but not too bad.

Remember everyone, you'll need a practice gun - I recommend the blue guns (http://www.blueguns.com) or the red guns from ASP, which you can usually get at Metro Uniform (http://www.metropolitanuniform.com) in Westland, Berkley, etc. The blue guns are cheaper.

Cost is either a blue gun (I need the various Glocks, Sigs, etc), or an equal amount of cash. Since you need the blue gun for class anyways.....

[58Sniper]

How big of an area do you think we need? Carpeted or concrete floors, does it make a difference?

I'll spook around and see if I can find something, if you guys don't mind making the haul out to Livingston or Washtenaw County.

Oh, the blue gun just arrived....

That would REALLY be a hike for me.....

Carpeted floors are preferred - just to keep people from slipping and falling. Some chairs for the initial part of the class would be realy nice. Proximity to a sink or water system are required - I don't need people getting dehydrated.

[ChrisBWJ]

I found these people...

http://www.shomertec.com/item.cfm?Action=Search&variable=352

Shipping was $7 (I prepaid with a check). They charge a premium if you use a credit card.

The gun looks like the real thing. Made by Rings.


I'll check around on a room/rooms, but I figure it's easier for me to head East, then for everyone else to trek West. :roll:

[58Sniper]

That's not a bad price. Dunno what S&H is, but I know that Metro Uniform is getting nearly $50 for the red guns, PLUS tax. However, if someone is looking for a gun that Blue Guns doesn't make, the Red Guns might have what you need. I know I just got the Kahr gun from them.

[58Sniper]

Oh - let me clarify something....

I mentioned that the cost would be a blue gun or equal cash....

The only blue guns I'm looking for are Glocks, Sigs, Berettas (92F/92D), and the 1911. I don't really need anything else (although you're welcome to take the class with anything else).

Thanks!

[58Sniper]

Kouger - Any info on that building?

[Renegade]

Asuming I did not think it was a para-ordance LDA. I would have grabbed him by the throat with my left had and given him some hot .45 ACP lead out of my Glock 36.

If I was not sure I would have had to wait for the right moment to respond and it my have not be leathal.

[bigjim]

Have you ever seen the Foo Fighters video for "Everlong" where the guy's hand gets RRREEEAAAALLLYYYYY big and he starts whapping people upside the head?

I think a dose of that would have been in order for the 1911-toting numbnuts, at a minimum.

He's lucky he didn't get shot. Also, exactly how sure do you have to be that your gun is "not loaded" before you stick it in someone's ribs? Idiot. His little "joke" could have turned into a life-changing tragedy.

[J 92 Brigadier]

Since this guy poking the gun in your ribs is only a moron trying to unnerve you, for the sake of the scenaro, let's assume the idiot is also stupid enough to have his finger on the trigger. You might consider grabbing the gun by the barrel and giving a good clean twist away from you to his strong side. After all, during tactical training we are warned how easy it is for a BG to take your gun if you let him get too close. You would (hopefully) hurt his hand and may even get lucky and break his trigger finger.

[keith1299]

I know this topic is old but sooner or later this guy is gonna try to renew his permit. What im wondering is would a letter to the county gun board help to prevent said moron from getting his renewal. We had to have letters to get the permit which im sure they kept on file so maybe they would keep letters against him on file. That might be a quiet way of taking care of this moron. If this has already been mentioned sorry. Keith

[Hillman]

I guess my problem with writing a letter is verification of the events that took place. Otherwise, what would keep your anti-2A neighbor from polluting your file with the same disparaging letters? Much better, I think, to deal with the problem when it happens, directly with the loser and/or a LEO who may be available.

[58Sniper]

Well, an LEO was available. And the LEO almost shot the guy.

[karcent]

I know this topic is old but sooner or later this guy is gonna try to renew his permit. What im wondering is would a letter to the county gun board help to prevent said moron from getting his renewal. We had to have letters to get the permit which im sure they kept on file so maybe they would keep letters against him on file. That might be a quiet way of taking care of this moron. If this has already been mentioned sorry. Keith

Personally, I think the whole permit thing is total BULL*****! and I won't try to prevent anyone from getting a silly piece of blue paper that I think NONE of us need to protecy ourselves.

In retrospect, this incident did more to open my eyes than anything else I have encountered.

The next dumb***** is in for a big surprise.

[Ryder]

I was researching a question I had about renewals (didn't find an answer yet) but came across this old thread and would like to add something.

It sounds like many of you are not aware that there is a modification available which allows you to carry hammer down and still get off the first shot without cocking the hammer manually.

I did a quick search, can't locate the info on the internet, think I read a write up on it in a magazine? Who knows? My memory isn't the greatest anymore. From what I do remember you decock in condition zero and the hammer resets (springs back into firing position) automatically when the safety (or trigger?) is pressed.

The mod didn't interest me much as I always carry cocked and locked but it is out there and it does work.

Be careful guys.

[Quaamik]

Ryder,

There are actually two setups that allow that.

One is marketed as an aftermarket modification like you described. When installed, pushing the safety off cocks the hammer.

The second is para ordnances LDA models. They are DA only 1911s.

Never assume that a gun pointed at you cannot be fired in the condition its in. Even if its a model you know, and the safety is visibly on, what makes you so sure that the safety on THAT gun works? What if that gun has a modification that lets it fire from a hammer down position?

IMHO, any gun pointed at you should be treated as a potentially lethal threat, and treated appropriately. Even if the muzzel only accidently covers you during handeling, assume it's loaded and could go off at any second (in other words, get the <BLEEEEEP> out of the way).

[mdsmith]

Did the class in this thread ever happen?

[58Sniper]

No - I haven't been able to find a good place to hold it.