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View Full Version : What if the dogs would have attacked



John Kennedy
03-18-2003, 10:00 PM
My wife, my daughter and I were coming out of my sister's house. when we approched our vehicle there were 2 large dogs across the street barking. My wife said to hurry up and unlock the door to get our daughter in the truck. As I went to the door the dog started across the street. I was armed, what should I have done? :roll:

ANIMAL
03-18-2003, 11:49 PM
be on the ready. hand on grip ready to pull and fire if charged. but yes get daughter in truck if possible or put her on top with the wife if there is no time to unlock.

RSF
03-19-2003, 12:11 PM
good call animal, now i will tell you of a tactic to use! if no pepper spray is at hand, get ready to fire by dropping to one knee and extend gun in hand (if under attack from the dogs then ) let the dog come to get your hand with gun in it when he opens his mouth to bite fire shoving your gun in his/her mouth i have done this once when there is a risk to others in the area (inner city, etc...) there is no chance of missing then! other than that pepper spray is an option for those crowded areas and risk of hitting others by o.p( overpenetration) it is a 50/50 shot with mulitx dogs then i dont recommend !

mdsmith
03-19-2003, 12:39 PM
be on the ready. hand on grip ready to pull and fire if charged. but yes get daughter in truck if possible or put her on top with the wife if there is no time to unlock.

I don't know if I agree with that. The dogs have already started to cross the street. If there isn't time to unlock the door of your truck, then their isn't time to wait before drawing.

In the "Skill Integration for Close Quarter Engagements" class I had last weekend, it was demonstrated that an assailant needs to be at least 21 feet away for you to effectively draw and fire your weapon. This is assuming a human assailant. Dogs can move much faster than humans can. If you waited for the "Charge" it would be too late.

The average LEO takes 1.8 seconds to draw and fire their weapon, how long does it take you? Two dogs can do significant damage to you, your wife, or your daughter in 2 seconds.

Do you carry pepper spray? That would have been an effective weapon against dogs. However, I believe lethal force would be warranted against two large dogs. (I am not a lawyer, LEO, or any person of authority.)

If it had been me, I would have had my wife open the door, put our daughter into the truck and call the police while I drew my weapon and put myself between the animals and my family. I would have to fight my training to move away from the assailants (in this case the dogs). Hopefully the dogs do not attack and I am not forced to shoot them.

Once my daughter and wife are safely in the truck, I would back away from the dogs and get in the truck. As soon as I was in truck I would call the police (if my wife had not already done so).

I would handle this situation differently if I had pepper spray with me (which I always do.) I would have drawn the pepper spray and sprayed the dogs immediately. The dogs would have probably returned home immediately... I would still contact the police.

Just my 2 cents.




Marc

ANIMAL
03-19-2003, 12:39 PM
thorough but oh so messy :D

goldwing2000
03-19-2003, 12:42 PM
I was armed, what should I have done? :roll:

Well? So what DID you do??

John Kennedy
03-19-2003, 06:54 PM
Well, my wife and I are both armed. I got the door unlocked when they started across the street. My wife pushed the door to unlock all doors and had my daughter go around the front of the truck to get in the other side while I watched the dogs with my gun drawn while yelling at them to go, they stopped a little over half way of the street. My daughter and wife got in the truck and my wife watched while I got in. We did not call the police because it was in Detroit and they don't consider that a priority. So it would have probably been the next day if at all. I didn't think about pepper spray until I've read it on this site. Good idea to have. Things work out. (Thank God!) Just wondering what other people would have done in the same situation.

Quaamik
03-19-2003, 11:16 PM
Draw but keep it at my side, advance on dog and yell to my wife to get her and daughter in car. Stay between them and the dogs at all times. I'd keep the gun at my side to minimize the cahnce that someone nearby might see it and call the police claiming I was "brandishing".

Dogs often retreat from a loud, larger animal. At minimum, they will focus thier attention on me, rather than my wife and child.

As far as I know, there is no requirement to retreat from an animal. I think that only applies to a person.

BigDaddy40
03-20-2003, 09:03 AM
Do you carry pepper spray? That would have been an effective weapon against dogs. However, I believe lethal force would be warranted against two large dogs. (I am not a lawyer, LEO, or any person of authority.)






Pepper Spray??? I for one would never let them get close enough to use it.

BTW: pepper spray is totally ineffective on dogs, they have no tear ducts.

Why would you take a chance the spray would work in this situation? That's what you have a gun for?

Kimber45
03-20-2003, 09:11 AM
Do you carry pepper spray? That would have been an effective weapon against dogs. However, I believe lethal force would be warranted against two large dogs. (I am not a lawyer, LEO, or any person of authority.)






Pepper Spray??? I for one would never let them get close enough to use it.

BTW: pepper spray is totally ineffective on dogs, they have no tear ducts.

Why would you take a chance the spray would work in this situation? That's what you have a gun for?

Tear ducts!? Try putting some on your tounge and see what happens. No tear ducts there either. Sure pepper spray makes you tear but that is a secondary effect.

I'm a little surprised that your daughter was sent around the front of the truck to get in the other door. Why separate her - one of the dogs could have went for her while the other attacked you.

BigDaddy40
03-20-2003, 09:17 AM
I read this somewhere about dogs and pepper spray. I'll try to find the article. It was tested on police dogs. The room was filled with the spray and the dogs didn't react at all.

I asked my vet the question yesterday and he agreed.

Kimber45
03-20-2003, 09:27 AM
Interesting. My understanding that the primary reaction from capsacin was on mucus membranes. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.

RSF
03-20-2003, 09:37 AM
lol i have sprayed 2 dogs in my life they did not like it all! maybe ask your mail man or gas meter person! and a good pepper spray unit will reach 20 +feet

RSF
03-20-2003, 09:44 AM
better yet do a search on dogs and pepper spray then sit back grab a cup of coffee and start reading enjoy oh and dont forget to get some pepper spray

BigDaddy40
03-20-2003, 11:11 AM
lol i have sprayed 2 dogs in my life they did not like it all! maybe ask your mail man or gas meter person! and a good pepper spray unit will reach 20 +feet



Interesting... I'll post the article soon as I find it.


I'll pass on the pepper spray tho :lol:

mdsmith
03-20-2003, 11:44 AM
Pepper Spray??? I for one would never let them get close enough to use it.

BTW: pepper spray is totally ineffective on dogs, they have no tear ducts.

Why would you take a chance the spray would work in this situation? That's what you have a gun for?


Maybe in this situation using a gun was the correct answer. However, not all situations call for the use of lethal force. Many self defense situations do not warrant lethal force. If someone shoves you and you pull out a gun, you just escalated the situation. If you fire, YOU will be the one to go to jail. Even if you don't fire you could be charged with brandishing. But, had you pulled out pepper spray, which is considered non-lethal force, you would be legally "ok" to use it.

This doesn't even look at all the times we can't carry our guns. For example, today I am going to lunch at a restaurant that serves alcohol. I can not take my gun (yes, this will change in a few months, but you get the idea). I will be taking my pepper spray.



I'll pass on the pepper spray tho


I'm curious why you are so resistant to other forms of self defense. Every situation is different, not all require or warrant lethal force. If the only "tool" of self defense you have is a gun, what will you do in non-lethal self defense situations when using a gun is not necessary or legal?




Marc

Quaamik
03-20-2003, 12:13 PM
Some people don't trust pepper spray. Others might be worried that if they are in a situation where they use deadly force, the fact they had access to non-lethal force and didn't use it (even if they were otherwise justified in useing deadly force) might be held against them in court.

Both those concerns have been mentioned to me.

Then there is the load issue. Most ordinary people do not want a "utility belt". The typical CPL holder is going to be wearing a gun, possibly one or two reloads and a pocket knife. In addtion they may have any of the following: a cell phone, a leatherman or other multitool, a beeper, flashlight, car keys, wallet, pocketwatch, money clip, muggers wallet. Some of these will be in pants pockets, and some on the belt. Often the slef defense spray is silmply left behind because its more of a pain to find a place to put it that the percieved benifit.

Personally, I wind up with a pistol, a spare mag, and a multitool on my belt. A knife, pocketwatch, clump of keys, wallet, comb and money clip in my pockets. Occasionally a flashlight in my pocket as well. OC spray would be nice, but where would I put it without hampering access to something else or it? And without looking like I am wearing a utility belt or bandoleer?

BigDaddy40
03-20-2003, 06:57 PM
If someone shoves you and you pull out a gun, you just escalated the situation. If you fire, YOU will be the one to go to jail. Even if you don't fire you could be charged with brandishing.



First of all, anyone with that little self control doesn't deserve to be carrying.

Second of all, charging dogs, my wife and child in the way, are not even in the same league as getting shoved.









I'm curious why you are so resistant to other forms of self defense. Every situation is different, not all require or warrant lethal force. If the only "tool" of self defense you have is a gun, what will you do in non-lethal self defense situations when using a gun is not necessary or legal?








I'm not resistant to other forms of self defense at all. I've got 2 black belts, one in a close combat style with emphasis on joint manipulation and attacking nerve centers. The other one is worthless. I also fought full contact for many years. There have been several times in my life when I've been shoved and the smartest thing to do is walk away.

When carrying, the last thing I would even consider is fighting. If the need to draw my weapon actually arose during some sort of close in confrontation, it would take about 1 second for me to disable him enough to draw. Fighting while carrying is one of the most dangerous things you could attempt. Your gun could fall out or worse yet, he could take it from you. I would have to be in fear of my life to even try it.

In the scenario we've been discussing, we're not talking about being shoved or screamed at. Charging dogs are charging for one reason, to attack. With my wife and daughter at risk in the face of charging dogs, the dogs would die. I'm not risking their lives or health for any reason and in that situation I wouldn't rely on spray. I would want to make sure the threat is neutralized right now.




If the only "tool" of self defense you have is a gun, what will you do in non-lethal self defense situations when using a gun is not necessary or legal?









The best tool you have for self defense is awareness. Most confrontations start at a distance. The distance closes between the two people as stupidity goes up. The key is distance. Keep it even if you have to run.

In the event that someone jumped me from behind for example. I've already made one mistake by not being aware. At that point my intent would be separation. I've got a small advantage there because I'm left handed but shoot right handed. It's natural for me to keep my gun furthest from the threat.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't believe in non lethal self defense situations, as you put it. Especially when carrying. As long as you can run or escape it's not a lethal situation. Self defense is a choice. When cornered or not have a way to escape? In my mind the confrontation is now very potentially lethal and I'll react accordingly.

J 92 Brigadier
03-20-2003, 09:45 PM
Out of concern for the same situation, I have begun carrying a pocket knife a few months ago. I can draw and open it quickly with one hand. Why risk brandishing if it isn't absolutely necessary? A good poke with a blade should stop a dog if you don't have your pepper spray handy. If things get out of hand you can always draw and fire.

John Kennedy
03-20-2003, 10:02 PM
I was always told not to take a knife to a gun fight. A poke from a pocket knife is NOT going to stop two large 100lb. rots. As far as a pocket knife goes, if its in your pocket and it is over 3" long you are carrying a concelled weapon, if it's not over 3" what do you expect to do to the dogs. I think I'll take my chances with brandishing when it comes to my family. I'll take the necessary steps to protect them. :pistols:

mdsmith
03-20-2003, 10:26 PM
First of all, anyone with that little self control doesn't deserve to be carrying.

Second of all, charging dogs, my wife and child in the way, are not even in the same league as getting shoved.



I completely agree. As far as I'm concerned, self control should be a prerequisite to receiving a CPL. I also agree charging dogs (et al) are not in the same league as some idiot shoving you.




I'm not resistant to other forms of self defense at all. I've got 2 black belts, one in a close combat style with emphasis on joint manipulation and attacking nerve centers. The other one is worthless. I also fought full contact for many years. There have been several times in my life when I've been shoved and the smartest thing to do is walk away.


Ok, in your case, I can see why you would not be concerned with something like pepper spray. You have years of training in a form of martial arts appropriate for self defense. I did not know that. However, for the rest of us that do not have your years of training and full contact fighting, I think pepper spray is a valid form of non-lethal self defense. Just my opinion.

I should stop and apologize though. My post came off as accusational and that was not my intent. I need to learn to keep my mouth shut until I know the entire situation.






When carrying, the last thing I would even consider is fighting. If the need to draw my weapon actually arose during some sort of close in confrontation, it would take about 1 second for me to disable him enough to draw. Fighting while carrying is one of the most dangerous things you could attempt. Your gun could fall out or worse yet, he could take it from you. I would have to be in fear of my life to even try it.


Well, a week ago I completely agreed with you. However, last weekend, when I took that "Skill Integration for Close Quarter Engagements" I was told otherwise. In one of the scenarios I was put through, the "assailant" came up behind me and shoved me. I immediately backed off, apologizing, saying I didn't want any trouble. He shoved me a total of three times before I hit him with an elbow to the head. (He was padded of course.) Once the scenario was completed, Training Officer Brian Bastianelli's first question was "why did you let him hit you three times before you struck back?" I said basically I was trying to avoid a fight. His response was that it only take one "good" hit to render you unconscious. Maybe in your case more because of your full contact fighting experience. He went on to say once you are unconscious, the BG can just take your gun. Kind of made me think.

Maybe he's just used to instructing LEO's where the situation is a little different, but it did make sense to me. It's a tough call. I've never been much of a fighter myself. You do have a valid point about your gun falling out or taking it from you. I guess I wish I had your years of martial arts experience where if push came to shove and I was cornered, I could effectively defend myself.




In the scenario we've been discussing, we're not talking about being shoved or screamed at. Charging dogs are charging for one reason, to attack. With my wife and daughter at risk in the face of charging dogs, the dogs would die. I'm not risking their lives or health for any reason and in that situation I wouldn't rely on spray. I would want to make sure the threat is neutralized right now.


Agreed, in the situation we are discussing, I would probably use my gun.



I guess what I'm saying is I don't believe in non lethal self defense situations, as you put it. Especially when carrying. As long as you can run or escape it's not a lethal situation. Self defense is a choice. When cornered or not have a way to escape? In my mind the confrontation is now very potentially lethal and I'll react accordingly.


I guess we just have to disagree about this. There can be many times when someone wants to beat you up but not cause great bodily harm or kill you. (Mistakenly thinks you were checking our his wife/girlfiend/daughter, thinks you cut him off in traffic, etc...) You are right in that it's a choice. Do you chose to take a beating, or do you choose to defend yourself? I don't know about you, but I'm not a very fast runner...




Marc Smith

BigDaddy40
03-21-2003, 01:40 AM
Do you chose to take a beating, or do you choose to defend yourself? I don't know about you, but I'm not a very fast runner...









I'm not advocating taking a beating ever and I'm not much of a runner either LOL.

SteveS
03-21-2003, 10:03 AM
Pepper spray seems to be an effective tool in some situations. I would probably use a gun against a large, charging dog than try to rely on pepper spray.

As for the overall usefullness of pepper spray. Since I work in a "gun free zone" and go to college at night, pepper spray is my only option for most of the day. I have also taken some martial arts (not a black belt, though) and try to be as aware of my surroundings as is possible.

Pepper spray is just one of several tools. I would never want to become totally dependent on any one tool.

HK USP
03-22-2003, 11:56 PM
Dogs are basically cowards when confronted. I have been attacked 3 times. Once by a pack of about 6 dogs while on a hike, Once in my own back yard, and one in my parents yard. All three times as soon at the animals showed agression (I was unarmed) ie growling, showing of teeth, and advancing in a meanaceing fashon. I went on the attack, I imedeately decided I must kill the lead animal or any other ASAP. With this firmly fixed in my mind I stared them in the eye and charged screaming something obscene at the animal. During the hike I had a walking stick, plan A was cave in the skull of the lead animal, and was in the process of a full charge when they decided to turn tail and run like HE!!.
Dogs can smell fear, but I believe they can smell their own death as well and will retreat.

Ken P
03-23-2003, 09:48 AM
Could you clarify EXACTLY what the dogs did?

From the original post it said the dogs were barking and then they advanced in to the street. In other replies the dogs were said to be "charging". There's a slight difference. My dog barks all the time, she may well even "advance" but she's just protecting her turf.

Of course I'm talking about a cocker spainiel not a Rottweiler, perhaps the perceived threat was more than the actual threat. I know another Rott that may well exhibit the same behaviors, but she's also the biggest baby in the world once she knows you.

Toxie
04-08-2003, 02:33 AM
In the scenario we've been discussing, we're not talking about being shoved or screamed at. Charging dogs are charging for one reason, to attack. With my wife and daughter at risk in the face of charging dogs, the dogs would die. I'm not risking their lives or health for any reason and in that situation I wouldn't rely on spray. I would want to make sure the threat is neutralized right now.

First point- shooting things its a magic off switch. Many times (IE 90%) the person or animal wont die right away. Pepper spray however, has an immidate effect on most dogs. (they have very sensitive NOSES!)

B. not every charging dog is going to attack. keep in mind where you are, the animals disposition ETC. If the guy accross the streets dog slips the leash and runs over to you, chances are he wants to sniff your crach, or lick you hands :). In Del Ray- probably not.

G22
04-08-2003, 07:31 AM
If the guy accross the streets dog slips the leash and runs over to you, chances are he wants to sniff your crach, or lick you hands

So when someones dog slips their leash & runs over to you your going to offer your crotch up for a sniff??? :shock:

John Kennedy
04-08-2003, 04:40 PM
No i think i am going to offer up the end of my CZ then if it wants more that's what it will get ..... :pistols: Also it was not a poodle in the burbs it was a 75 to 100 lb rot in Brightmoor so I will say this you use the spray I pack a gun for 1 reason and if need be it will be used when it comes to me or my family. :badass:

Sigster
04-08-2003, 05:18 PM
No way does the average LEO draw in 1.8 seconds. They're not nearly that well trained...