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View Full Version : HB 6053 (2010) Allow CPL Holder Use of Self-Defense Spray



PhotoTom
04-21-2010, 06:14 AM
HB 6053 of 2010 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2010-HB-6053)
Weapons; other; use of certain self-defense spray or foam device by person holding concealed pistol permit; allow under certain circumstances.


Introduced: 4/20/2010
Last Action: 12/1/2010 PLACED ON ORDER OF THIRD READING

TRT
04-22-2010, 10:56 PM
What am I missing here? I thought OC spray under 10% was already legal for anyone to use.

DOUGHBOY RACING
04-23-2010, 05:32 AM
What am I missing here? I thought OC spray under 10% was already legal for anyone to use.It is
In Michigan, pepper spray is legal if it has less than 2% of the active ingredient, this decreases the length of the effects but not the SHU. Sprays containing a mixture of CN/CS are also banned, though tear gas containing only CS is legal.[32]
No one under 18 is ever permitted to buy any type of mace defense spray. People who are of age in MI may purchase canisters of the approved tear gas and carry them in public, but they must only be used to defend the owner or others against an attack. Circumstances in which the use of tear gas would be lawful include fending off an assailant, protecting personal property from a thief and warding off a wild animal.

Michigan features an expansive wilderness that is home to hundreds of animals. Sometimes man and beast do not mix well in the great outdoors, and a human may find themselves under attack. When this happens, the safest and most humane approach is to use an animal defense spray. These sprays are more powerful than the ones that are designed for humans, and will temporarily incapacitate even the largest creature. Animal sprays are legal in Michigan, but they must be properly labeled to indicate that purpose.

TRT
04-23-2010, 12:56 PM
Ah, so it raises the bar from 2% to 10%. Thanks.

Tallbear
05-14-2010, 01:38 PM
Standing Committee Meeting

Judiciary, Rep. Mark Meadows, Chair

Date: 05/19/2010

Time: 10:30 AM

Place: 521 House Office Building, Lansing, MI

Agenda:
HB 6101 (McMillin) Crime victims; rights; names and addresses of minors who have been victims of child abuse or sex crimes; allow to be exempted from disclosure under freedom of information act.

HB 6135 (Smith) Corrections; parole; dueling conviction as basis for parole eligibility; remove to reflect repeal of crime.

HB 6136 (Sheltrown) Criminal procedure; sentencing guidelines; sentencing guidelines for crime of dueling; eliminate.

HB 5812 (Kennedy) Crimes; other; definition of service animal; revise.

For referral to the Committee on Tourism, Outdoor Recreation and Natural Resources:

HB 6053 (Crawford) Weapons; other; use of certain self-defense spray or foam device by person holding concealed pistol permit; allow under certain circumstances.

AND ANY BUSINESS PROPERLY BEFORE THIS COMMITTEE

To view text of legislation go to
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.asp?page=Bills

Individuals who wish to bring written testimony need to supply a minimum of thirty copies for distribution.

discerningshootist
05-14-2010, 02:28 PM
If you already have the cpl, and you can't carry the spray anywhere you can't carry a gun, what's the point?
BTW, % oc content is often misleading, "Women &Guns" magazine did a scientific comparison, and Sabre Red with 2% was more effective than some companies bear spray.
Also, lead isn't negated by severe wind and rain storms.

bornyesterday
05-17-2010, 08:58 AM
If you already have the cpl, ... what's the point?
I would expect that the spray can might be easier (lighter, more compact) to carry in many situations. That said, it's always desirable to use the correct tool for the job at hand...

Done Deal
05-17-2010, 11:06 AM
It sure will be nice when Fox Labs "Mean Green" will be jogger legal in Michigan.

Tallbear
05-19-2010, 04:48 PM
Tourism, Outdoor Recreation and Natural Resources, Rep. Joel Sheltrown, Chair

Date: 05/25/2010

Time: 10:30 AM

Place: 521 House Office Building, Lansing, MI

Agenda:
HB 5681 (Booher) Natural resources; forests; commercial forest reserve act; provide waiver to penalties and fees under certain circumstances.

HB 6053 (Crawford) Weapons; other; use of certain self-defense spray or foam device by person holding concealed pistol permit; allow under certain circumstances.

HB 6159 (Lindberg) Vehicles; off-road; off-road vehicle legislation; modify.

HB 6162 (Caul) Vehicles; off-road; operation of OHVs on local roads, streets, and highways; allow under certain circumstances and provide for assumption of the risk of operation.

To view text of legislation go to
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.asp?page=Bills

Individuals who wish to bring written testimony need to supply a minimum of thirty copies for distribution.

Individuals needing special accommodations to participate in the meeting may contact the Chair's office.

Tallbear
05-25-2010, 02:34 PM
Standing Committee Meeting

Tourism, Outdoor Recreation and Natural Resources, Rep. Joel Sheltrown, Chair

Date: 06/01/2010

Time: 10:30 AM

Place: 521 House Office Building, Lansing, MI

Agenda:
HB 6053 (Crawford) Weapons; other; use of certain self-defense spray or foam device by person holding concealed pistol permit; allow under certain circumstances.

HB 6092 (Kowall) Watercraft; safety; county marine safety funding; require state to return 49% of certain revenue to counties for marine safety and require the state to post certain information online.

HB 6177 (Neumann) Gaming; lottery; sale of advertising on club keno lottery games; allow, and earmark revenues.

HB 6159 (Lindberg) Vehicles; off-road; off-road vehicle legislation; modify.

HB 6160 (Sheltrown) Vehicles; off-road; issuance of trail permits for OHV operation; require and provide for disposition of proceeds.

HB 6161 (Wayne Schmidt) Vehicles; off-road; safety training for OHV operation; require, and regulate training providers.

HB 6162 (Caul) Vehicles; off-road; operation of OHVs on local roads, streets, and highways; allow under certain circumstances and provide for assumption of the risk of operation.

To view text of legislation go to
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.asp?page=Bills

Individuals who wish to bring written testimony need to supply a minimum of thirty copies for distribution.

Individuals needing special accommodations to participate in the meeting may contact the Chair's office.

Committee Clerk: David Mead
Phone: 517-373-2013
e-Mail: dmead@house.mi.gov

malignity
05-28-2010, 03:17 PM
See, there's only one problem here.

We all know pepper spray doesn't work 100% of the time.

I'm not a cop, nor do I have any want, or intention on carrying a 'duty belt' with 100 things on it.

If given the choice, I'm going to carry something that's comfortable, and is 100% reliable, and that ain't pepper spray.

So this law is like fine and dandy, but the majority of us probably couldn't care less. ;)

PhotoTom
06-02-2010, 04:26 AM
Status Update:
Last Action: 6/1/2010 Analysis File Added (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2009-2010/billanalysis/House/htm/2009-HLA-6053-1.htm)

zigziggityzoo
06-04-2010, 09:42 PM
I've always found it humorous that the current law does not do anything to restrict sprays greater than 10%.

It explicitly states that it's OK to use sprays up to 2% for self-defensive purposes - but I find no law prohibiting sprays greater than 10% at all.

And as we all know, if it's not explicitly illegal, it's legal.

Done Deal
06-05-2010, 07:08 AM
I think that the requirement to "carry evidence of training" may jam a non-resident of the state up as reciprocal CPL states won't have that as part of their pre-licensure training if it is legal there without it.

Secondly, it appears that the requirements will incur the wrath of the "no ID" gang because they are going to have to carry and produce their "paperwork" if toting OC around it looks like.

It will be a process to follow, thats for sure...

PhotoTom
07-02-2010, 06:32 AM
Status Update:
Last Action: 7/1/2010 Analysis File Added (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2009-2010/billanalysis/House/htm/2009-HLA-6053-3.htm)

Quaamik
07-10-2010, 12:27 PM
I like the H2 substitute bill.

The H1 bill would prohibt the use of any OC spray by someone who didn't have a CPL and would also require CPL holders to get training int he use of OC sprays when they went to renew (Which I assume they would have to pay for.....).

Pistol Teacher
09-06-2010, 10:18 AM
Does this proposal have any legs or is it dead. Is it a alternative weapon that could be used say if you were drinking.

PhotoTom
12-03-2010, 04:43 PM
HB 6053 of 2010 (http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?2010-HB-6053)
Weapons; other; use of certain self-defense spray or foam device by person holding concealed pistol permit; allow under certain circumstances. Amends sec. 224d of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.224d).
Last Action: 12/1/2010 PLACED ON ORDER OF THIRD READING

Looks like it going to happen...nothing to do with CPL's or special training now...just raising the "limit" from 2% to 10%...


The bill would amend the Michigan Penal Code to increase the maximum amount of oleoresin capsicum (OC) in a self-defense spray or foam device that a person may use in defense of people or property.


Under the Code, using a self-defense spray or foam device to eject, release, or emit certain substances, including OC, at another person is a misdemeanor punishable by up to two years' imprisonment and/or a maximum fine of $2,000. That provision, however, does not prohibit a person's reasonable use of a self-defense spray or foam device containing not more than 2% OC in the protection of a person or property under circumstances that would justify the person's use of physical force. The bill would allow the use of a device containing up to 10% OC.

malignity
12-03-2010, 05:24 PM
10% is still low. :(

I want to get some of the pepper spray the army of India just developed out of ghost peppers. And I thought my 4,000,000 SHU hot sauce was bad.

dazednconfused75
12-04-2010, 04:11 PM
The concentration is great but what good is it when you only have 35 grams of the stuff?

hopeitsfast
12-04-2010, 04:25 PM
10% is still low. :(

I want to get some of the pepper spray the army of India just developed out of ghost peppers. And I thought my 4,000,000 SHU hot sauce was bad.
You can get 'legal in Michigan' stuff that is 5.3Million SHU currently.

PhotoTom
12-04-2010, 04:32 PM
The concentration is great but what good is it when you only have 35 grams of the stuff?

That isn't referencing the volume of the container...

kdogg
12-06-2010, 03:48 PM
The pepper spray laws are stupid. I would rather spray someone then shoot them but due to the current laws, I don't bother with pepper spray, I carry a gun.

TRT
12-06-2010, 03:58 PM
The percentage is more marketing than a measure of effectiveness.

A higher SHU will do more to incapacitate someone than a higher percentage.

Even when I leave MI, I'll still carry Fox's 5.3 million SHU, even though it's "only" 2%.

Bronson
12-08-2010, 10:38 PM
If given the choice, I'm going to carry something that's comfortable, and is 100% reliable, and that ain't pepper spray.

What do you carry that works 100% of the time? I'd like to get one.

Shooting Voodoo (http://www.shootingvoodoo.com/index.php/articles/gunshot_wounds_and_you/)

If you are shot you have an 80% chance to survive

Bronson

Tallbear
12-16-2010, 09:02 AM
HB 6053 of 2010 (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=2010-HB-6053)
Weapons; other; use of certain self-defense spray or foam device by person holding concealed pistol permit; allow under certain circumstances. Amends sec. 224d of 1931 PA 328 (MCL 750.224d).
Last Action: 12/15/2010 bill ordered enrolled

Donzie
12-17-2010, 04:44 PM
presented to the Governor 12/16/2010 @ 2:04 PM

ChaneyD
12-17-2010, 04:48 PM
Personally I don't want to get close enough to use a spray. After what I saw today at the range I don't see how those same people could effectively hit their target with a spray. Just ain't happin'n.

sarco001
12-19-2010, 09:11 PM
I used to sell a product called "Halt", it was meant for dogs but worked on people if you got them in the face.
A cop came into the store and checked it out and said it was legal. I guess making it legal to carry stronger stuff is a step in a good direction (unless it is used on you).

WoW
12-22-2010, 08:17 AM
I I guess making it legal to carry stronger stuff is a step in a good direction (unless it is used on you).

Which brings us to the point of--

"Well officer, it looked like the dead person was about to spray that potent incapacitating spray so it was necessary to plug them full of holes."

Donzie
12-22-2010, 07:38 PM
approved by the Governor 12/22/2010 @ 1:28 PM
filed with Secretary of State 12/22/2010 @ 2:12 PM
assigned PA 365'10 with immediate effect

malignity
12-31-2010, 10:08 PM
Today I contacted the owner of Fox Labs (Ed, I believe his name was?) and asked them if they had any intentions on making a 10% spray with this new law passing. The conversation was a bit bumpy at first, but to make a long story short, the answer is absolutely not.

After about a 20 minute conversation with him, he informed me that higher capsicum does NOT mean hotter chemical. With higher capsicum, you get more impurities, and with more impurities, it takes longer to work. He kept referring to his chart on his website, and told me to read it, but as of yet I'm not able to find it. He also stated that EVERY single PD in the area uses Fox Labs, and will continue to do so, because there's nothing close to 5.3 million SHU out there; and truth be told, I believe him. Being that I'm a big time hot sauce guy and own a 4 million SHU hot sauce, I know exactly how bad even 4 million can be. One drop on my tongue will practically cripple me; a 6'1, 330lb individual, let alone atomized spray in my face at 1.3 million SHU hotter.

Even though this law has passed, sounds like I'll be sticking with my 2% Fox Labs. I'm no expert, but the owner of Fox Labs is, and after the conversation with him, I know he's not just marketing his product, but knows his stuff. Seems like that's the one to get.


After just doing some quick research, here's some things I've found:

Fox Labs (used by local PD): 5.3M SHU
Freeze +P (used by MSP): 2M SHU
Sabre: 2M SHU
Mace: 2M SHU
Def Tech: 7,500 SHU (lol.)

Get Fox Labs if you plan on getting pepper spray.

PackRat
01-01-2011, 09:57 AM
So where do you go to get the training?

donald150
01-01-2011, 10:18 AM
It looks like we can now carry the kimber pepper blaster. It is 10%.

Most places don't know of the law change and still restrict sales of it to Michigan.

http://www.pepperblaster.com/

Korey5640
01-01-2011, 07:05 PM
So from what I understand, I could carry any size of Fox Labs spray I choose being that its 2% OC?

donald150
01-01-2011, 07:42 PM
So from what I understand, I could carry any size of Fox Labs spray I choose being that its 2% OC?


"Not more than 35 grams of any combination of orthochlorobenzalmalononitrile and inert ingredients."

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2009-2010/publicact/pdf/2010-PA-0365.pdf

Korey5640
01-01-2011, 07:51 PM
"Not more than 35 grams of any combination of orthochlorobenzalmalononitrile and inert ingredients."

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2009-2010/publicact/pdf/2010-PA-0365.pdf




(a)Sec. 224d. (1) As used in this section and section 224, “self-defense spray or foam device” means a device to which
all of the following apply:
(a) The device is capable of carrying, and ejects, releases, or emits 1 of the following:
(i) Not more than 35 grams of any combination of orthochlorobenzalmalononitrile and inert ingredients.
(ii) A solution containing not more than 10% oleoresin capsicum..

OC would fall under subsection (ii), and 2% would be under the 10% limit. Subsection [B] states 1 of the following. Hence, if it qualifies for (ii), would it not then be legal in any amount (size of can, not concentration)?

donald150
01-01-2011, 08:01 PM
OC would fall under subsection (ii), and 2% would be under the 10% limit. Subsection [b] states 1 of the following. Hence, if it qualifies for (ii), would it not then be legal in any amount (size of can, not concentration)?


The wording can all be so confusing.

The paragraph above is defining what “self-defense spray or foam device” Is.

I guess if it is over 35 grams you could make the same argument that ZIG has made about the 10% part. If it is over 35 grams, It would not even be a “self-defense spray or foam device”.

Korey5640
01-01-2011, 10:38 PM
My point is, Fox Labs is OC...NOT orthochlorobenzalmalononitrile (CS). Subsection (i) relates to orthochlorobenzalmalononitrile (CS) which is commonly found in a gas form (think riots, the large clouds of CS gas from CS grenades). Subsection (ii) is speaking of those sprays that contain oleoresin capsicum (OC) which is what Fox Labs contains.

They seem to have put a limit on the amount of CS AND inert ingredients you can have in your possession for "self defense". However, for OC it appears they have simply put a limit on the concentration of OC that the spray may contain.

zigziggityzoo
01-01-2011, 11:48 PM
My point is, Fox Labs is OC...NOT orthochlorobenzalmalononitrile (CS). Subsection (i) relates to orthochlorobenzalmalononitrile (CS) which is commonly found in a gas form (think riots, the large clouds of CS gas from CS grenades). Subsection (ii) is speaking of those sprays that contain oleoresin capsicum (OC) which is what Fox Labs contains.

They seem to have put a limit on the amount of CS AND inert ingredients you can have in your possession for "self defense". However, for OC it appears they have simply put a limit on the concentration of OC that the spray may contain.

+1

Knightrider03m
01-02-2011, 06:37 PM
You guys can have the spray. I'm still waiting for my taser :)

Cybersniper
01-22-2011, 02:54 PM
They should add tazers to the list.