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  1. #21
    MGO Member cantpickone's Avatar
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    When you initially asked if she was interested in supporting your goal of allowing concealed carry on campus and she responded that she was adamantly opposed to the idea, why you would continue a dialog with her and be upset about it is beyond my understanding.
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  2. #22
    In Memoriam mikeb32's Avatar
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    I would certainly take "CrimDoc" up on his offer.
    "Tell Me No Lies, I'll ask you No Questions"

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    Unless otherwise noted, my posts represent my personal opinion, and are not an official position, opinion, or endorsement by MGO or the MGO BOD.

  3. #23
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    Just an FYI, Wayne State is part of this... http://www.keepgunsoffcampus.org/list.html

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by cantpickone
    When you initially asked if she was interested in supporting your goal of allowing concealed carry on campus and she responded that she was adamantly opposed to the idea, why you would continue a dialog with her and be upset about it is beyond my understanding.
    agree, she started her 'rant' of a reply with these 9 words:
    Even if I had the time I would never
    why she continued on is kinds strange but she did.... after you got your reply you should have moved on to the next staff member instead of debating an issue with someone who is so backwards on their facts...

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phelptwan
    Just an FYI, Wayne State is part of this... http://www.keepgunsoffcampus.org/list.html

    jeeesus! who signed on to THAT? The crime on campus is ever present; the shady obviously-not-students types have unfettered access to the campus and as good of a job as campus safety does they can't be every where at all times....


    I would love a gun free campus.... just wall off the entire campus, send every single person through a metal detector to ensure they are disarmed and then I'll happily keep my pistol locked in my car, but until that day I'll stay pissed I am unarmed walking the campus knowing the BadGuys have their smokewagons ready to point at unarmed victims

    God help us!

  6. #26
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    Cool

    Well I like the idea of keeping guns off of campus. It is a very good idea!! If you can guarentee that all guns would be kept off campus. That would take putting metal detectors on every
    entrance, and a 30 food barbed wire fence around the entire campus with armed guards and sniffer dogs.

    Since you cannot, I believe that we should be on equal footing with the bad guys, and have good guys with guns. The police are not there to stop you from being robbed, raped, or killed. They are there to observe, and then if they determine a crime is being committed to tag the body and take evidence to hopefully convict the assailent. Those of us with a living brain find that unacceptable, and wish to prevent the death, or rape of our selves and our families.

  7. #27
    MGO Member who dat's Avatar
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    If you insist on carrying on with this person, Google "Gun control Myths and realities."

    You'll find information you can give her from places she would respect just from their names:

    Intellectual Take-Out and the Cato Institute are two.
    "Every late-19th-century legal scholar that we have read interpreted the Second Amendment to secure an individual right unconnected with militia service." -- U.S. Supreme Court, June 26, 2008.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimDoc
    Here's what bothers me about this:

    If someone is a Liberal and they oppose concealed carry on campus ... fine. I can certainly "agree to disagree" with people.

    But when people start making stuff up, and then pass this made up stuff off as "facts", especially when they carry the title "Professor" that's just plain wrong. It borders on academic dishonesty. For instance, she writes:

    "Where there are more guns there are more gun deaths, and more deaths in general, since guns are more efficient than other weapons for killing. Every honest study shows that." - Wrong ... completely untrue.

    "Every result of every questionnaire to law enforcement personnel I have ever read or heard of shows that those who are professionally engaged in keeping public safety are also very much against the proliferation of firearms." - Again, wrong ... completely untrue.

    I don't want to interject myself into your "fight" unless I'm invited ... but as Faculty Advisor to the GVSU Chapter of SCC, I'd be happy to write a reply in support if you'd like me to.
    At this point, I have no problem with you doing so,
    however, I am very doubtful that it will do much good.

    This person has made it very clear that she chose her position and stands behind it regardless of what is shown her.

    She can be the witness of an armed robbery to her own family and still would oppose guns and CPLs.

    When I worked my first ever real sales job, they used to joke about the segments of our customer base, but the joke was in fact quite accurate.

    They would say that 60% of people we dealt with would buy from us no matter what. increases in price, whatever negative. Brand loyalty and service spoke for itself.

    20% were on the fence, and required real work to convince.

    and the remaining 20% would NEVER buy from us, regardless of how much money we threw their way, beat their current service provider's price in half, whatever. And this was true too.

    any I would say that the stats against guns would be different, but regardless, she falls into the category that will never see "the light", and its scary to think, because that type of mentality is a threat to the safety of both herself and of others.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmike
    I doubt very much that there is anything that you can say that will change her opinion.

    That said, some arguements that you could use is that if someone wants to do harm with a gun they don't care what guns law are. They will bring a gun and use it. The only person who can stop this person is someone else with a gun at the same place.

    The people who will use it responsiblity, if it came down to it, are those that abide by the laws, and go through the process of getting a CPL.

    Also you can use her arguements against her, such as:

    Can you guarantee that someone with a gun (without a cpl) won't shoot up the cafeteria?

    Can you guarantee that someone with a gun (without a cpl) won't go on a shooting spree on the campus?

    Can you guarantee that someone with a a gun (without a cpl) won't go crazy and shoot in your class?

    And if this happens who will stop them? The only person who could stop them is someone else in the same location who has a gun. The police will come to write the report afterwards.

    Guns are used about 2.5 million times in America for self defense.

    http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html

    If you really want to be bold invite her to the range. If she becomes familiar with a gun she may not be so afraid of it.

    My gut feeling is that you won't win with her no matter what you say. However, maybe you can show her that you aren't a kook.
    Spot on and would be a good reply!!! Libs never let the truth get in their way.

  10. #30
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    This is my final response to her. thank you to all who have contributed, I have used some people's posts directly, unaltered, because I believe they have covered the subject matter directly and effectively. I intend this to be my last correspondence with her, I believe that closure was necessary and she DID need to read certain things before bloating her ego into thinking that she can easily demoralize someone with lies.

    Professor Wasserman,
    I think you may have misunderstood my last communication. I am not offended by the arguments of ALL women that oppose this. I was taken back by the fact that you would label something like this as irrational. That was offensive to me. Its the equivalent of labeling someone crazy because you do not understand them. However, I'd like for you to read a few things.

    I'm not sure which surveys you have read, or where you found them, but your findings happen to be inaccurate.

    Here are some sourced statistics that you can do background research on to verify, if you question their validity.


    Fact: 94% of law enforcement officials believe that citizens should be able to purchase firearms for self-defense and sporting purposes. (17th Annual National Survey of Police Chiefs & Sheriffs, National Association of Chiefs of Police, 2005)

    Fact: The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals. In Warren v. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Department, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981), the court stated: `... courts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community.' Well, except for politicians whom receive taxpayer- financed bodyguards.

    Fact: 95% of the time police arrive too late to prevent a crime or arrest the suspect. ("This is 911 ... please hold", Witkin, Gordon, Guttman, Monika and Lenzy, Tracy. U.S. News & World Report, June 17, 199

    Fact: People with concealed carry permits are:
    5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public
    13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the general public
    ("An Analysis of the Arrest Rate of Texas Concealed Carry Handgun License Holders as Compared to the Arrest Rate of the Entire Texas Population", William E. Sturdevant, PE, September 11, 1999)

    Fact: In Florida, a state that has allowed concealed carry since late 1987, you are twice as likely to be attacked by an alligator as by a person with a concealed carry permit.(Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report, Florida Department of State, 1998 – Florida Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission, December 1999)

    Fact: 66% of police chiefs believe that citizens carrying concealed firearms reduce rates of violent crime.(National Association of Chiefs of Police, 17th Annual National Survey of Police Chiefs & Sheriffs, 2005)

    Fact: About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. The odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26,000.And that is with citizens using guns to prevent crimes almost 2,500,000 times every year. ( Shall Issue: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws, C. Cramer, and D. Kopel, Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994)

    also, I think you fail to realize that this is not simply arming students. It involves professors as well. This is not a one-sided clause to the law. It applies to everyone.

    Can you guarantee that someone with a gun (without a cpl) won't shoot up the cafeteria?

    Can you guarantee that someone with a gun (without a cpl) won't go on a shooting spree on the campus?

    Can you guarantee that someone with a a gun (without a cpl) won't go crazy and shoot in your class?

    And if this happens who will stop them? The only person who could stop them is someone else in the same location who has a gun. The police will come to write the report afterwards.

    Guns are used about 2.5 million times in America for self defense.

    http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html


    If you are interested in educating yourself on hand guns and safety, I would gladly invite you to the range for professional instruction. Most people who are opposed to guns typically walk away from an experience like that having learned a lot about themselves and the topic of fire arms as well. You may undoubtedly learn that it is not for you, or you may learn the opposite. However, you will have done so on the grounds of first hand experience rather than believing one side or the other on arguments that have no relation until you try it first hand.

    Also, here is even more statistics and common myths, a few that you have mentioned yourself, from a credible source as well.
    http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=4706

    also, here is one shocking article I have found that hits alarmingly close to home.
    http://www.media.wayne.edu/1998/12/1...sity-community

    Am I saying that a student with a CPL could have changed the course of this event? No. But if the teacher or a student were armed in this event, I guarantee it would have had the possibility of being different.

    further research on this article finds more details at:

    http://community.seattletimes.nwsour...1&slug=2788425

    It mentions that after the professor was shot and wounded, the shooter stopped to reload and shoot again. It was the second batch of shots that killed him. Is it not arguable that in this time someone who was armed could have done something? An empty gun is a useless gun and I guarantee that while he was trying to reload he was put at ease by the GUARANTEE that no one in the entire building with him was armed.

    This and more is something you would understand the nature of if you educate yourself first hand with fire arms. You cannot "imagine" trying to reload a fire arm, it has to be done realistically in a controlled environment for you to truly understand the process involved and face the reality that IF someone HAD been armed during this, I would strongly argue that this exact moment would have been the opportunity to engage the threat and notably neutralize it, since he was at that point no longer functionally-armed, nor would he have been in the right state of mind or attention to monitor an entire class full of individuals and attempt to continue to carry out his sadistic plot at the same time.

    I am not trying to disregard or insult your opinion on the subject in any way. I respect that you have the right to disagree with me just as I do with you, however, I would hope that before your form your opinion on the subject, you would at least try to look at research from both points of view, and develop a logical unbiased opinion. I have learned to do the same while studying at WSU.

    Regardless,
    Thank you for your time and I hope you enjoy your weekend.
    -Alex Shikhman
    and to those who have asked why I continued speaking to her after.
    Simple. People like this believe that they have won every time you ignore them. Am I risking a lot in fighting with her? Yes. But I strongly believe in this cause and if I am able to atleast SLIGHTLY alter her train of thought, then I believe that to be a strong victory because I know that a lot of the opposition will be just as tough, if not tougher, than this professor, and in higher positions as well.

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