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  1. #1
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    S&W M&P 15-22 BANNED at Appleseed events

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...attery-firing/



    BREAKING: S&W M&P 15/22 Rifles BANNED at Appleseed Events Due to Run Away and Out of Battery Firing



    It might be time to take a second look at your favorite .22 caliber AR-15 trainer rifle: Bearing Arms is reporting that organizers of the Appleseed Project marksmanship program have banned outright the use of Smith & Wesson M&P15-22 due to problems experienced in multiple instances with multiple rifles at Appleseed events. The full release will be replicated below, but in short some of the rifles appear to be having problems with their fire control groups, which can cause the weapons to fire repeatedly without the trigger being pressed, and cause them to fire when not in battery. This latter malfunction has apparently caused one injury and should be taken very seriously. The release from the Appleseed Project is below:

    To: All Appleseed Instructors

    Subject: TEMPORARY BAN ON SMITH & WESSON M&P 15/22 USE AT APPLESEED

    EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE USE OF SMITH AND WESSON M&P 15/22’S AT AN APPLESEED IS HEREBY BANNED UNTIL SMITH & WESSON FORMALLY INVESTIGATES THE PROBLEM AND ISSUES AN OFFICIAL CORRECTIVE ACTION. THE AOC WILL NOTIFY THE CADRE WHEN THIS BAN IS LIFTED.

    The AOC has received a rash of reports regarding safety issues with the Smith & Wesson M&P 15/22, including a shooter getting injured as a result of an out-of-battery discharge (see reports below).

    As responsible Instructors, we have a duty to maintain safety at our events. If we know a rifle to be potentially unsafe, we shouldn’t allow it on the line at all.

    At this time the least risk course of action would be to exclude the Smith & Wesson M&P 15/22 from future events until Smith & Wesson formally investigates the problem and issues an official corrective action.

    REPORTS TO BE AWARE OF:

    Bowie, MD: A shooter (RHS) firing a M&P 15/22 with Remington 22 Thunderbolt Ammo had an out of battery discharge. A Metal Fragment hit the arm of a shooter next to her (LHS) in her right arm. She, did not realize that she had been hit with fragments at first and continued to fire until blood begin to pool (time est. 11:10am) feeling only a warm sting. Instructors rendered first aid applying a compression type bandage to stop the bleeding. Shoot boss suggested that she go to local hospital or emergency clinic. She was able to drive herself to the hospital. They took x-rays of the area and found a fragment deep in her arm. Hospital suggested that she see an Orthopedic surgeon or her Doctor on Monday to have the object removed but surgery should not be required.

    Casper, WY: This past weekend we had a student show up with a 15/22. She had been using it pretty regular, since she had also attended our recent boot camp. After about 8 sets of squares, she began to notice the malfunction. Upon careful observation, it was noticed that as she reset the sear the rifle would discharge. We called cease fire and immediately removed this rifle from the line, and replaced it with a loaner.

    Once off line, it was field stripped and upon inspection, found that not only was it firing at reset, but also when the safety was engaged. Further inspection found that the trigger pin and the hammer pin were both loose. They both had moved about 1/16th of an inch to the right. Just enough to be loose on the left side of the receiver. The pins were gently hammered back in and function checks performed. After about 3 sets, the hammer pin slid out again.

    The rifle was reassembled and tagged out, student was told that 1) the rifle needed to be seen by her gunsmith; or 2) (my recommendation) sent back to the manufacturer for repair/replacement.

    Michigan Senior Instructor: The SI wanted to shoot an AQT with his 15/22, but he needed to verify the zero. Another instructor volunteered to take the rifle over to another range, put it on a bench, and confirm zero. While shooting the first string, after pulling the trigger, the extractor shot out the ejection port along with the case and the extractor spring. The case was retrieved and it was observed to be split down the side, indicating that the rifle fired out of battery. Fortunately, the instructor was alone on the range, and no one was injured. The rifle was sent back to S&W, and it was repaired and returned. A copy of one page of the manual was enclosed, highlighting the need to keep the rifle clean and only use certain types of ammunition, insinuating that the problem was operator error, not a design flaw. The Senior Instructor sold the rifle shortly thereafter.

    Michigan Instructor: “Back before I was more familiar with this model, we had a malfunction of the Extractor during an event – it simply fell apart during a course of fire. I took it to Williams and they said it needed to go back to S&W. To save time I just bought a new extractor, springs and dowel pins and replaced them myself. Tested it and it worked fine, that’s until it malfunctioned again after several hundred rounds down range.

    As the old saying goes “two is one and one is none” – I had purchased several extractors, springs and dowel pins – replaced it a second time and it worked fine all up until I had a “Run-Away…” Luckily I had the muzzle pointed down range as it spit out the balance of 30 rounds down range without the need to have a finger on the trigger….
    I contacted S&W and they sent me a repair tag and shipped it back to them. Upon its return I noticed that they replaced the hammer, sear and all the springs were replaced with “Blue” springs. The rifle performed well the after that but I never brought it back to an Appleseed. It now sits in the vault as an expensive club.”

    Montpelier, VA: I’ve witnessed out-of-battery firing and squib from M&P 15/22’s twice but never from a 10/22.

    The M&P15-22 is a .22 Long Rifle caliber AR-15 lookalike rifle that shares with those popular black rifles its ergonomic design. Due to this, it has sold extremely well despite costing nearly twice as much as the more domestic-looking and ergonomically different Ruger 10/22, which is also very popular in Appleseed. It’s worth noting that this does not seem to be the first time an M&P15-22 has had a problem with out of battery firing, either.

    The Appleseed Project is a marksmanship program that provides inexpensive training at short ranges (25 yards) that simulates fire at longer ranges. The goal is to qualify shooters to complete a simulated WWII-era US Army Qualification Test (AQT), for which students may use rimfire rifles.

    TFB did reach out to S&W for a comment on this story, so far we have received no statement from the company.

  2. #2
    MGO Member Roundballer's Avatar
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    I am a little surprised that THEFIREARMBLOG has access to anything internal to the Appleseed Instructor Cadre.

    The original notice is here:
    http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.p...7146#msg337146

    The thread about MP 15-22 is here:
    http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=49521.0


    Life Member, NRA, Lapeer County Sportsmen's Club Disclaimer: I Am Not A Lawyer. Opinions expressed are not representative of any organization to which I may belong, and are solely mine. Any natural person or legal entity reading this post accepts all responsibility for any actions undertaken by that person or entity, based upon what they perceived was contained in this post, and shall hold harmless this poster, his antecedents, and descendants, in perpetuity.

  3. #3
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    Should be well known by now that the 15/22 needs certain ammunition or this can be a problem.

    Should be equally well known by now that Remington rimfire ammunition is trash. There is a reason that you won't find any Remington ammunition listed by S&W as acceptable for use in the 15/22.


    For what it's worth, I had this same thing happen. Rifle started shooting bursts and very shortly after, had an out of battery discharge that blew the extractor off. SW replace the extractor and springs, told me what ammunition not to use... haven't had a problem since. Mine was a very early production model which lacked the ammunition recommendations page.

  4. #4
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    I'm not sure these things are so well known actually.

    I've personally met people who love Remington Rimfire ammo. It groups for them and runs well. To each their own, and to be fair, their results with the ammo were great. While I do avoid Remington ammo (love the 597 rifle though) it's because of a lack of consistency for me, not because I'm worried it might be a safety issue.

    I also don't own a 15-22, so had no idea that the manual specifies only using certain ammo until this issue came up.

    The problem is that most people don't read the manual even when they do own the rifle. At Appleseed where there is likely another shooter fairly close to your right, this becomes a safety issue. When one person already had to go to the hospital, the Appleseed leadership has obviously decided that the liability risk is too great. We all want to go home without extra holes, right?

    Instructors almost always have loaner rifles available, and if someone asks in advance, we can be certain to have one. Everyone stays safe and the skills you'll learn at Appleseed translate straight from one rifle to another.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

  5. #5
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    What's wrong with this picture?

    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...s-sw-mp-1522s/
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  6. #6
    MGO Member Roundballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIGILANT View Post
    The problem is that you linked the picture but not the caption:

    Quote Originally Posted by the article, caption on picture
    Yes, we know she has her finger on the trigger after firing her first semi-auto rifle at a “Zombie Shoot”. She got caught up in the excitement and we corrected her finger on the trigger habit. (photo courtesy John Boch)
    The photo is only an example of a youth holding an M&P 15-22, nothing to do with Appleseed.




    Quote Originally Posted by DP425 View Post
    Should be well known by now that the 15/22 needs certain ammunition or this can be a problem.

    Should be equally well known by now that Remington rimfire ammunition is trash. There is a reason that you won't find any Remington ammunition listed by S&W as acceptable for use in the 15/22.


    For what it's worth, I had this same thing happen. Rifle started shooting bursts and very shortly after, had an out of battery discharge that blew the extractor off. SW replace the extractor and springs, told me what ammunition not to use... haven't had a problem since. Mine was a very early production model which lacked the ammunition recommendations page.
    Any rifle that is marketed and marked as chambered in a specific chambering, should be safe to shoot with ANY commercially available ammunition in that chambering (over pressure rounds "+P" excluded).

    If the rifle will fire out of battery, it is NOT a safe rifle. If particular brands of ammo gum the action up and it stops functioning all together, that doesn't make it unsafe, it just leaves questions about design.

    Now, Remington ammo. Not all Remington labeled 22LR is the same. Personally, I will not buy "thunder-duds" or the "bucket 'o' booolets", but we have obtained some surplus through the CMP that was just white boxes with mil-designations and the word Remington printed on it. That stuff was near match-grade in consistency, with NO duds and actually fairly clean shooting.


    Life Member, NRA, Lapeer County Sportsmen's Club Disclaimer: I Am Not A Lawyer. Opinions expressed are not representative of any organization to which I may belong, and are solely mine. Any natural person or legal entity reading this post accepts all responsibility for any actions undertaken by that person or entity, based upon what they perceived was contained in this post, and shall hold harmless this poster, his antecedents, and descendants, in perpetuity.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roundballer View Post
    The problem is that you linked the picture but not the caption:


    The photo is only an example of a youth holding an M&P 15-22, nothing to do with Appleseed.





    Any rifle that is marketed and marked as chambered in a specific chambering, should be safe to shoot with ANY commercially available ammunition in that chambering (over pressure rounds "+P" excluded). I tend to disagree- is there a SAAMI spec for minimum velocities? Minimum pressure? Maximum blow-back? Maximum residue? Just because a commercially available ammunition might meet SAAMI spec, it doesn't mean it's going to be safe for every firearm designed for that cartridge. As everyone knows... .22 ammunition can be temperamental to say the least, and is already known for being dirty, with some brands looking like they are trying to win a competition for dirtiest ammunition. Now, when all of this is addressed in the manual, the blame rests squarely on the shoulders of the individual failing to read, or abide by the manual.

    If the rifle will fire out of battery, it is NOT a safe rifle. If particular brands of ammo gum the action up and it stops functioning all together, that doesn't make it unsafe, it just leaves questions about design. There are a lot of firearms capable of firing out of battery. With the 15-22, the issue is more a problem of ammunition that lacks the energy to bring the hammer back to the disconnector, OR a firearm that is so dirty, that the energy produced isn't enough to overcome the friction increase. What happens is the hammer follows the bolt back and discharges a round. The 15-22 is not the first, or last firearm to be capable of this malfunction.

    Now, Remington ammo. Not all Remington labeled 22LR is the same. Personally, I will not buy "thunder-duds" or the "bucket 'o' booolets", but we have obtained some surplus through the CMP that was just white boxes with mil-designations and the word Remington printed on it. That stuff was near match-grade in consistency, with NO duds and actually fairly clean shooting. Yes, but that also isn't the stuff that is well known to have problems... as you illustrated with "thunder-duds".
    I've had many problems with Remington rimfire ammunition in the past fired through several other .22s. For some reason, the stuff almost seems to be reproducing when left alone. I haven't bought any in a LONG, LONG time, yet boxes keep showing up. And I keep trying to shoot it to get rid of it. Often having to cycle the slide on my Buckmark, or the bolt on my Marlin 60 to eject duds, or weak rounds that randomly appear and are unable to fully cycle the action.

  8. #8
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    My assumption is that if I can buy it at one of the major stores it should be safe to use in my gun..


    If it isn't safe in my gun either the ammo is defective and needs to be recalled or my gun is defective

  9. #9
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    The S&W owners manual mentions the type/brand of ammo they want you to use. However one assumes they only mention it so the gun will not be jam-o-matic. Not that the gun will become full auto and fire at random.

  10. #10
    MGO Member Roundballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeep olllllo View Post
    The S&W owners manual mentions the type/brand of ammo they want you to use. However one assumes they only mention it so the gun will not be jam-o-matic. Not that the gun will become full auto and fire at random.
    Or discharge out of battery, which would indicate a possible design flaw.


    Life Member, NRA, Lapeer County Sportsmen's Club Disclaimer: I Am Not A Lawyer. Opinions expressed are not representative of any organization to which I may belong, and are solely mine. Any natural person or legal entity reading this post accepts all responsibility for any actions undertaken by that person or entity, based upon what they perceived was contained in this post, and shall hold harmless this poster, his antecedents, and descendants, in perpetuity.

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