Welcome to MGO's Internet Discussion Forums…Please Consider Becoming a Dues-Paying Member of the ORG…Click >>>>>HERE<<<<< for more info…………****DONATIONS**** can also be made toward MGO's Legal Defense Fund and/or MGO's Forums >>>>>HERE<<<<<

Firearms Legal Protection

Results 1 to 10 of 10
  1. #1
    MGO Member qz2026's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Gaylord, MI
    Posts
    186

    The Curio & Relics (C&R) License

    I'll take a shot at this for those interested. We can start a discussion with comments and then, at some point, ask that a sticky be made.

    If you are a collector or someone who is interested in purchasing a historic WWI or WWII firearm, a C&R license may be something you are interested in acquiring. The license generally allows you to purchase those rifles and pistols deemed by law to be Curio's and Relics across state lines. I say "generally" because some states have laws that restrict this activity. Although we have a 2nd Amendment right to bear arms, which states must adhere to, the states do not have to buy in to the C&R licensing law. Fortunately, virtually all of the state support this concept with the exception of restrictions or additional red tape required from those states generally on the east and west coasts.

    Some of the benefits are:
    1. You can purchase C&R weapons from online retailers, online sellers and other sellers from any state in the union. Of course, you must be aware of your state laws. And if you decide to sell, you must be aware of the state laws from the states you sell to.
    2. You will not have to have a 4473 background check for C&R eligible weapons that you purchase. That activity was already done on your application for the license. This eliminates the need to have the item transferred to you from a dealer or 01FFL holder. 01FFL is a dealer license. 03FFL is a C&R license.
    3. Your rifle or pistol can be delivered right to your door.

    Some pit-falls:
    1. An 01FFL dealer is NOT required to sell to a C&R holder. Most will, but some don't. It's their discretion who they sell to and who they don't sell to. Some dealers are simply more comfortable with transactions between dealers. So, if you are interested in purchased a C&R rifle and the listing indicates that an FFL is required (they all do with the exception of antiques) but there is no mention of C&R's being accepted, it would be a good idea to contact the seller to make sure he will transfer the weapon to you.
    2. You must understand that this is a license issued by the Federal Government. They require accurate record keeping with specific information required to maintained in a "bound book". If you are ever audited and your record keeping is sloppy or non existent, things will not go well for you.
    3. There is a slim chance that your records could be audited. This is rare, however. The BATF has their hands full and spend most of their time in other areas. I, personally, have never heard of such an audit taking place but I'm sure it happens.
    4. This is not a license to buy and sell as a dealer. The definition of a dealer is specific in the law. But, generally, a dealer is a person that buys and sells guns as a business. Although, it is perfectly acceptable to sell your C&R weapons, this like anything else, is a grey area. There is a line you must not cross which is not specifically designated in the law. The question arises as to how many weapons would I have to sell before becoming considered dealing as a business. This is unknown and I, for one, would not want to test the limits. Suffice it to say that the law recognizes that collectors will sell in order to improve their collections. This is perfectly acceptable. We do this all the time. I would warn you, that if your intent is to be in a position to sell rifles as a business venture, the C&R is not the route you want to take.
    5. The primary pitfall is that you will now start purchasing more and more rifles and pistols. So, caution must be exercised, least you become Milsurp poor. Milsurp-itis is a dreadful disease with few cures. Don't expect anyone here to do anything but encourage you to buy more!

    How to get a C&R license:

    First logon to the BATF internet site and review it thoroughly. There are even links to the actual law which enabled this license. This link is a good start and also has links to most important documents and how to apply. Usually, it doesn't take more than 4 weeks to receive your license. A good idea, after receipt, is to not sign the original license. If you need to distribute a copy to a seller, the make a copy and sign that one.
    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics

    If anyone wants to make additions or thinks I am in error, chime in. I'm not proud. It's important to get all the appropriate information in this thread so we can make a good sticky. I'll also note the many of the forums have stickies already. But, we should really create our own since it's possible that new people who are interested in this may not be members of the other boards.

    PURCHASING A PISTOL IN MICHIGAN WITH A C&R LICENSE - UPDATE

    According the the federal government and weapon that is fifty years old (but not an antique) may be purchased using a C&R license. And this includes pistols. This also means that the pistol must have documentation as to it's date of manufacture or the date stamped on it's receiver. Colts are very easy since you can lookup the production date online. Smith & Wesson does not do this. If an S&W pistol has a letter with it that indicates it's ship date and that date is more than 50 years ago then you are good to go. But having such a letter is kind of rare to find accompanying a pistol. So, the bottom line with S&W's is that I would stay away trying to purchase them with a C&R unless the seller has solid documentation as to the pistols age. As many of us warn new licensee's, you must also follow your state laws. The State of Michigan does not recognize a C&R license as a method of purchasing/registering pistols. Thus, regardless if you have a C&R license or not, you must fulfill all the laws in Michigan regarding registration, i.e., the completion of the RI-060 form by an instate 01FFL.

    Gray area (but not so gray)

    It is possible to purchase a C&R eligible handgun on GunBroker and have it shipped directly to your door. But, be aware that once you receive this pistol you are at variance with the Michigan State Law. In other words you are now in possession of an illegal (and illegally obtained) handgun. Now, if the seller has an 01 or higher FFL (not 03FFL) that is recognized in the State Police database, then you can fill out the RI-060 and take it to the Sheriff and they will stamp your RI-060 and enter your pistol into the database. The problem with this is that finding such a dealer is fairly rare. I've got one such pistol.

    I would recommend that prior to attempting to purchase a handgun with your C&R license, you should ask the seller if their FFL is registered in Michigan or ask them for their FFL number so you can run it by your Sheriff to see if it is recognized in the State Police data base. This is pretty shaky. The seller is likely to tell you to jump in the river. Personally, I wouldn't attempt this.

    Another method is to purchase the pistol from the seller using your C&R. Again, upon receipt of the pistol, you are now in violation of the law. In such a case you can transfer the weapon to your FFL and he can transfer it back to you. Be aware that he will still have to perform the NICS, get an approval and then fill out the RI-060 for you to take to your Sheriff to have stamped, plus charge you whatever his fee is. You better have a copy of the seller's FFL and a purchase receipt as well. I would only use this method in an emergency. What is an emergency? An emergency is if you have purchased C&R pistols in the past and have never registered them with the state. So, now you know the law regarding C&R pistols... You now have an emergency if you have purchased C&R pistols and have no stamped RI-060 to accompany it. In addition your FFL doesn't have to do this transfer for you.

    The Best Option

    Don't ever use or even think of using your C&R to purchase handguns PERIOD! If purchasing online follow the normal procedure of paying for the pistol and having the seller ship the pistol to your FFL. This is the only way to legally purchase and possess a pistol in Michigan. I understand that there is some flexibility if you are a CPL but I'm not discussing CPL's. Purchasing a pistol in Michigan can also require a Permit to Purchase as well which I have not covered here other than to say if you are purchasing on line from out of state sellers, they'll also tell you to jump in the lake if you want them to sign a Michigan permit to purchase. Although for online purchases, my Sheriff said that they would sign the permit to purchase as the seller...

    Let me know your feed back. What I have discussed comes from personal experience and questions I've had on the issue for a decade...

    Impact of the 2024 Michigan Gun Law changes:

    If you have a C&R License, you may run into trouble in Michigan now. New law require that longs arms are registered the same as pistols. The gun show loophole is now gone. So, you can still use your C&R for out of state purchases but be aware that you will have to register the long gun upon receipt or according to the state your possession will be illegal. For this you must go through an FFL. There are exceptions for CPL's. If you don't have a CPL, get one. The bottom line is that the State of Michigan has no provision in their laws for any other kind of FFL other than a dealer. They do not recognize an 03FFL. And be careful with "antiques". The State of Michigan's definition of an antiques is any firearm manufactured in or before 1898 AND DOES NOT shoot modern ammunition. Most states don't care what kind of ammunition the antique shot. Michigan does. I also believe that black powder rifles must not be registered as well.
    Last edited by qz2026; 03-01-2024 at 10:05 AM. Reason: Add information on C&R pistols
    Don't change them - leave them as they were...

  2. #2
    MGO Member JLHOG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wayland, MI
    Posts
    716
    I recently received my C&R license and would be interested. Maybe we can post C&R deals we find and sources for guns. I have a small list of dealers that accept C&R license dealers. I purchased my first one same day my license arrived.. I found this site useful in getting my license. http://www.garandgear.com/cnr_ffl_03

  3. #3
    MGO Member qz2026's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Gaylord, MI
    Posts
    186
    I will add the following based on some questions.

    In that state of Michigan we can face-to-face transfer long guns without going through an FFL. I have done this many times. A C&R holder must be aware, however, that if you sell or acquire a C&R rifle in this manner AND you currently have a C&R license, then you must "book" this purchase or sale in your bound book. Some people think that if they do a FTF transfer that booking it is not required. This is untrue. As long as you have this license all C&R rifles purchased or sold must be booked. This includes any C&R rifles you acquire at gun shows. It also includes any C&R rifles that you may have owned prior to getting your license. You are not required to book these guns once you receive your license. You are, however, required to log them in and log them out IF you should sell it while you hold this license.

    If you sell one to another Michigan resident, be aware that your bound book will require information on the person you sold it to. Generally the date of birth and driver's license information. When I sell FTF, I require this information before I will sell the item.

    As far as a list of those businesses that offer discounts, I don't think such a list exists. A retailer might chime in here and offer discounts but, in general, there are no lists. When you go into a retail establishment or pawn shop, simply ask them if they offer a discount for an FFL holder. After all, you ARE saving them time and effort by being licensed. Most, I suspect will not but some might.
    Don't change them - leave them as they were...

  4. #4
    MGO Member qz2026's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Gaylord, MI
    Posts
    186
    Quote Originally Posted by JLHOG View Post
    I recently received my C&R license and would be interested. Maybe we can post C&R deals we find and sources for guns. I have a small list of dealers that accept C&R license dealers. I purchased my first one same day my license arrived.. I found this site useful in getting my license. http://www.garandgear.com/cnr_ffl_03
    Excellent reference. Thanks.
    Don't change them - leave them as they were...

  5. #5
    I am a Forum User
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Saginaw Twp (the good part)
    Posts
    10,683
    STICKY THIS THREAD!

  6. #6
    MGO Member qz2026's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Gaylord, MI
    Posts
    186
    Quote Originally Posted by dwcopple View Post
    STICKY THIS THREAD!
    That's the goal, but we should first get more input from other collectors so we have all the facts. Once a sticky is created, only an administrator can edit it.
    Don't change them - leave them as they were...

  7. #7
    MGO Board of Directors

    President PhotoTom's Avatar


    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Wayne Co. MI
    Posts
    33,707
    Quote Originally Posted by qz2026 View Post
    That's the goal, but we should first get more input from other collectors so we have all the facts. Once a sticky is created, only an administrator can edit it.
    I don't think that is accurate…I just made this a sticky…let me know if you cannot edit it now.

    -Admin
    Don't let yesterday use up too much of today - Will Rogers
    DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed in my posts are my own and do not necessarily reflect the opinions, views, or official policies of Michigan Gun Owners.

  8. #8
    MGO Member JLHOG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wayland, MI
    Posts
    716
    This place is my favorite C&R dealer so far. Might need to refinance my house soon. LOL
    http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php

  9. #9
    MGO Member qz2026's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Gaylord, MI
    Posts
    186
    Quote Originally Posted by PhotoTom View Post
    I don't think that is accurate…I just made this a sticky…let me know if you cannot edit it now.

    -Admin
    Hummm, I made an assumption based on the first sticky being locked. At some point, the C&R sticky should be locked or it will get so large, no one will want to read it. I've seen these C&R discussions go on for ever. Hence the purpose of the sticky. Thanks Tom
    Don't change them - leave them as they were...

  10. #10
    MGO Member qz2026's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Gaylord, MI
    Posts
    186
    Quote Originally Posted by JLHOG View Post
    This place is my favorite C&R dealer so far. Might need to refinance my house soon. LOL
    http://www.simpsonltd.com/index.php
    Another one, in the Flint area, is Williams Gun Sight Company - http://shop.williamsgunsight.com/. Once in a while they have some nice and fairly priced Milsurps. Not as many as in the past. I recently bought a very nice ShtLE for a very good price considering they didn't know what they had. They only supply one picture of the rifle and not much of a write up. Their phone staff aren't top notch Milsurp people but know the basics and can answer specific questions. The good news is that they have a retail store front too.
    Don't change them - leave them as they were...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
only search Michigan Gun Owners Forums
MGO's Facebook MGO's Twitter