Welcome to MGO's Internet Discussion Forums…Please Consider Becoming a Dues-Paying Member of the ORG…Click >>>>>HERE<<<<< for more info…………****DONATIONS**** can also be made toward MGO's Legal Defense Fund and/or MGO's Forums >>>>>HERE<<<<<

Firearms Legal Protection

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 40
  1. #21
    MGO Board of Directors

    Trustee Jackam's Avatar


    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Flint, Mi
    Posts
    15,215
    Quote Originally Posted by Remo View Post
    It's 10 yards and less, what's the point of shooting good groups? That's all in front sight only shooting distance. In a defensive situation you don't want tight groups you want more holes.
    If you could have seen Cocowheats and a couple other people's targets - they were downright scary. These guys are shooters. We're talking precise!

    There is no way in hell I want these guys shooting at me. My baseball sized grouping should be sufficient in a self defense situation, but it also could mean that the bad guy's arm just got shot up and he's still trouble for me.

    These guys were putting bullets into bullet holes consistently.
    THAT'S the pattern I want and that's the pattern my enemy prays that I can't produce.
    "But then there are plenty of gun folks who think no one should rock the boat because it might piss off the anti gun crowd/politicians and cause even more gun control." - Bikenut
    Submissive gun rights advocates need to lose their submissiveness before we lose our 2A rights.

  2. #22
    I am a Forum User
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Three Rivers, MI
    Posts
    2,545
    Quote Originally Posted by Remo View Post
    It's 10 yards and less, what's the point of shooting good groups? That's all in front sight only shooting distance. In a defensive situation you don't want tight groups you want more holes.
    This is the outlook of a gun owner, not a gun user.

    If your groups quadruple in size in a stressful situation wouldn't you rather have quadruple of a 2" group then a 4" group? There is a reason classes like this are out there, and that instructors like Dave Spaulding and Larry Vickers teach accuracy on demand. Each round that leaves your barrel you are responsible for, and with your mentality, you shouldn't be taking that "hostage shot".

    Shyster, great writeup, and from most others, have seen the same results with the big dot sites.

  3. #23
    MGO Member ltcnav's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Skandia, UP
    Posts
    466
    Interesting thread, lots of good thoughts. I am an NRA instructor for all the pistol courses, of course, PPITH is the most popular as it is the one required for your CPL. MOST students are casual shooters, most accustomed to casual plinking, tin can shooting at camp(here in the middle of the UP, there are not any indoor ranges, only a couple of gun clubs). I find I have to train the " best group" mentality out of the student, in favor of the "fastest" best group. As in most endeavors, all is a compromise! If the group is getting smaller, then speed up. For defensive shooting, a fast "paper plate" group is way better than a slow "cloverleaf" group. IMHO
    Air Force Veteran
    NRA Patron Member
    NRA Handgun Instructor
    USCCA Handgun Instructor

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ltcnav View Post
    Interesting thread, lots of good thoughts. I am an NRA instructor for all the pistol courses, of course, PPITH is the most popular as it is the one required for your CPL. MOST students are casual shooters, most accustomed to casual plinking, tin can shooting at camp(here in the middle of the UP, there are not any indoor ranges, only a couple of gun clubs). I find I have to train the " best group" mentality out of the student, in favor of the "fastest" best group. As in most endeavors, all is a compromise! If the group is getting smaller, then speed up. For defensive shooting, a fast "paper plate" group is way better than a slow "cloverleaf" group. IMHO


    Xclnt explanation!

    (And no instructor can make any shooter willing.)

    Thank you for spelling it out.

  5. #25
    I am a Forum User
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Three Rivers, MI
    Posts
    2,545
    Quote Originally Posted by ltcnav View Post
    Interesting thread, lots of good thoughts. I am an NRA instructor for all the pistol courses, of course, PPITH is the most popular as it is the one required for your CPL. MOST students are casual shooters, most accustomed to casual plinking, tin can shooting at camp(here in the middle of the UP, there are not any indoor ranges, only a couple of gun clubs). I find I have to train the " best group" mentality out of the student, in favor of the "fastest" best group. As in most endeavors, all is a compromise! If the group is getting smaller, then speed up. For defensive shooting, a fast "paper plate" group is way better than a slow "cloverleaf" group. IMHO
    The issue is totally different.

    There are a lot of shooters that are not capable of shooting small groups (this included A LOT of instructors). This class is not defensive shooting, this class is a fundamentals class. It is about proper trigger press and proper sight alignment. NOTHING MORE. This class is not about speed at all, as as someone that has shot everything from bullseye pistol and rifle to USPSA and 3gun over the past 34 years, this is a very beneficial class, because it breaks the spray and play mentality of the competition and MAKES you slow down to get your hits.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Draken View Post
    The issue is totally different.

    There are a lot of shooters that are not capable of shooting small groups (this included A LOT of instructors). This class is not defensive shooting, this class is a fundamentals class. It is about proper trigger press and proper sight alignment. NOTHING MORE. This class is not about speed at all, as as someone that has shot everything from bullseye pistol and rifle to USPSA and 3gun over the past 34 years, this is a very beneficial class, because it breaks the spray and play mentality of the competition and MAKES you slow down to get your hits.

    After reading the above, I think I 'missed the target' earlier! Makes sense now. and I totally agree.

  7. #27
    I am a Forum User
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Three Rivers, MI
    Posts
    2,545
    Quote Originally Posted by PeeDee View Post
    After reading the above, I think I 'missed the target' earlier! Makes sense now. and I totally agree.

  8. #28
    I am a Forum User
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Lansing, MI
    Posts
    1,262
    I traded for a P2000sk with xs big dots a couple of months ago. I didn't shoot it well, so I decided to put factory dot sights back on it. I still don't shoot it well. I shoot my Glock 19 better, my M&P9C better, my P320 better. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if I shot my LCP better.

  9. #29
    I am a Forum User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    livonia
    Posts
    224
    Quote Originally Posted by Shyster View Post
    My EDC for the past couple of years has been an HK P2000v1 in .357 SIG with XS Big Dots. Although I've been wearing it for a long time I'm ashamed to admit I rarely shoot it, preferring my USPs or 1911s.


    Yesterday I took a class through MDFI entitled "You Suck It's Not The Gun." The class focuses on sight alignment and trigger control. MDFI encourages shooters to train with what they carry shop I so I left my range guns behind.


    While I may very well suck, it was quite clear that in this instance my gun did too. The maximum range you train for in this class is 10 yards and my 10 yard groups were HORRIBLE. Normally students find that mastering the sights is easy and the real issue shooters face is trigger control. For me my trigger control was near perfect. The bottom line is the sights are extremely difficult to hold a consistent sight picture with. When the instructor saw my sights he shook his head and commented that I was going to learn a tough lesson and he was right. My friend saw the issues I was having and offered to let me user his backup VP9 but I refused, sticking with the "train with what you use" theme.


    At the end of the class we did a fun shoot, targeting a 10" steel plate to see who could hit it at the farthest distance. I've been shooting handguns since I was 8 and I was the only one who couldn't ring steel at 25 yards. Absolutely humiliating.


    Placing an order for Meprolights today and switching to my PSP until they astride and are installed. I intend to repeat the class next year using the same gun but better sights. Can't say enough good things about the class if MDFI teaches a class near you I highly encourage signing up.
    I’m curious to know why you chose to switch over to meprolites after you ran the MDFI class. Did the MDFI class instructor recommend them?

  10. #30
    I am a Forum User
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    The Woodlands, TX
    Posts
    1,874
    Quote Originally Posted by Remo View Post
    It's 10 yards and less, what's the point of shooting good groups? That's all in front sight only shooting distance. In a defensive situation you don't want tight groups you want more holes.
    simple... muscle memory, If you practice hitting a torso silhouette, when adrenaline kicks in you will miss the torso with most shots. Try doing this next time to are on the range:
    Do 100 quick jumping jacks and then fire at your silhouette quickly, I bet most shots do not hit the kill zone. This simulates fight of flight (actually fight or flight is worse as you lose fine motor control).

    Even with soft points, non center of mass hits will punch through and hit bystanders. What happens if there are innocents between you and the bad guy, you feel comfortable with spray and pray? One well placed shot in the T box will do better than 10 random hits. Accuracy is everything , you are responsible for misses and will be tried for Murder if you kill the wrong person.

    I have seen soldiers who are excellent shots who shoot 1" groups at 100 yards, miss at 25 yards in combat with a rifle, fight or flight is real!

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
only search Michigan Gun Owners Forums
MGO's Facebook MGO's Twitter