80% Handgun registration process question

[tlagnhoj]

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[Jared1981]

"28.421 Definitions; lawful owning, possessing, carrying, or transporting of pistol greater than 26 inches in length; conditions; firearm not considered as pistol; election."

My citations of the MCL are correct, instead of being condescending, show me where I'm wrong. I don't quote the MCI, I quote the MCL. You said a manufacture is the seller, you're wrong and you aren't helping anyone by encouraging them to commit perjury. Telling people to commit a felony is stupid. You didn't sell yourself something you built...

"Does NOT apply to this discussion.

It does, you would know that if you actually read the MCL I quoted and continued on to MCL 28.422.

Where did you get your law degree???

That's funny, I don't remember you being at the table to strategize on the AAPS or Clio lawsuit.

[tlagnhoj]

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[Jared1981]

And I responded with the MCL! SEE LINK: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(hjn...ame=mcl-28-421

Since NOTHING in any MCL that I have see or been quoted instructs us how fill this form out for a "self make pistol". We will have to use a little COMMON SENSE and the law that does exist.

MCL 28.422(5) informs us that:
"the seller shall fill out the license forms describing the pistol, together with the date of sale or acquisition, and sign his or her name in ink indicating that the pistol was sold to or otherwise acquired by the purchaser."

Since the pistol was clearly "acquired" or the "buyer" could not possibly have possession and the "date of sale or acquisition" is REQUIRED information on the form. WHO fills out this information and signs the form??? Clearly the seller is the one who is REQUIRED to fill this information out... Along with "describing the pistol"

Under your theory that there is no "seller", no one should fill this information out. However, the law clearly spells out that information IS REQUIRED AND WHO is REQUIRED to fill it out. Hmmmmm... What do we do here?

The answer is clear. We get guidance from the MSP and perhaps even an actual lawyer. Now those of us who HAVE done this a few times have been down this road. We know the answers and some of us even know WHY the answer is correct. But every time this comes up again someone, who has so obviously never done this, has to pipe up and once again muddy the waters with their baseless opinion.

The answer and the reasoning is as follows:

The person who is acquiring the pistol is the "buyer". The buyer "acquires" the pistol from the "seller". In the case of a self-made pistol, the pistol was "acquired" as a result of the "buyer's own skill. Therefore the buyer applying his/her skill becomes the seller as well. IF the buyer assembles the pistol from parts which were never a pistol AND never a rifle, as may be the case with an AR pistol, the seller is still the buyer through his/her application of skill. However, since the seller is NOT the "manufacturer", merely an assembler of parts, MSP suggests that the name of the "seller" be listed as "Assembled from parts". Although the "seller" MUST still sign the form and that signature would also be that "Buyer's" signature. Meaning that in either case the "seller" IS the "buyer". THIS IS NOWHERE IN THE LAW.

Therefore your quotation of the law is not applicable in THIS instance.





First... You are DEAD WRONG. I NEVER said "a manufacture is the seller". Further I will make it clear that THE ENTITY THAT MANUFACTURES THE FIREARM IS THE MANUFACTURER. Not "SELF". If John Jones "manufactures the firearm then "John Jones" is what is entered in the "Manufacture" space on the RI-10 form. Who the "Manufacturer" is is a seperat issue from who the buyer OR seller is. Except that in the case of a "self made pistol" the "manufacturer", seller" AND the "buyer" ALL HAPPEN to be the same person. How the F is that telling anyone to commit a felony???

The "seller" is who the "buyer" "acquired" the pistol from. If you acquire the pistol through the application of your own skills, you ARE the seller PERIOD, FULL STOP, END OF SENTENCE. See above.



MCL 28.422 Dose NOT properly apply either. Like I said if you apply the law as you suggest then there is no seller to fill out the information which IS REQUIRED and the form could NOT be completed. CLEARLY it is the seller who is responsible to that portion of the form. In this case the buyer "acquired" the pistol through the use of his/her own skill... The buyer acquired the pistol from his/her SELF. The "SELLER" IS THE "BUYER".



Clearly every lawyer in the state of Michigan WAS at that table??? Along with everyone at that table being a lawyer??? No Jarod... I am NOT a lawyer!!! Never played one on TV or movie either. However, I HAVE filled out a few forms for pistols I have "manufactured" and "assembled from parts". Clearly you have not!

So you quote the MCI instead of the MCL.... nice.

You didn’t quote the subsection either. And state police guidance isn’t the MCL. The “seller is the buyer”, now i’ve heard it all.

Nice job shooting from the hip.
Nice job making up the law under the guise of “common sense.”
And nice job admitting to a felony perjury on a public forum.

Next time, read the subsections of 28.421 and look at the definitions of purchaser and seller, because you are neither as a manufacture.

[jgillmanjr]

So you quote the MCI instead of the MCL.... nice.

You didn’t quote the subsection either. And state police guidance isn’t the MCL. The “seller is the buyer”, now i’ve heard it all.

Nice job shooting from the hip.
Nice job making up the law under the guise of “common sense.”
And nice job admitting to a felony perjury on a public forum.

Next time, read the subsections of 28.421 and look at the definitions of purchaser and seller, because you are neither as a manufacture.

Huh...

(1) As used in this act:

...

(j) "Purchaser" means a person who receives a pistol from another person by purchase or gift.

Well then...

[Jared1981]

Huh...



Well then...

He’s obviously a person AND another person.

That’s MCI 12.345 which states “use common sense”.

Jesus man, you can’t make up some of the nonsense these people post. Setting aside admitting to felonies.

[tlagnhoj]

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[jgillmanjr]

If you are able to read, please refer to the link I posted... The site is titled "Michigan Legislature Michigan Compiled Laws Complete Through PA 7 of 2018"

You do at least understand that MCL means "Michigan Compiled Laws", right??? Where you get MCI from is a mystery!!! Probably the same place you get your information about filling out forms... Rectal extraction I suppose.

Actually, the only thing Jared deals with are MCLs and case law. You are in fact the one dealing with "Michigan Compiled Intentions" with your autistic screeching about "common sense" and trying to say that the definitions of purchaser and seller under 28.421 aren't applicable.

So... after being told how wrong you are here and here: https://www.migunowners.org/forum/sh...I-have-a-CPL-) I'm shooting from the hip???

No one that "told him how wrong" he is actually cited law, statutory or case.

Okay smart guy... based on MCL 28.422(5) , which you quote in the above linked thread, WHO fills out the "purchaser" and "sellers" portions and signs it???? Clearly some has to!

No, it's not "[clear] some[one] has to".

ROTFLMAO!!!! You DON'T get it at all!!! THERE IS NO LAW THAT CLEARLY COVERS THIS TOPIC!!! However, MCL 28.422(1) makes it clear that "Except as otherwise provided in this act, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section."

Since you tell us there is no seller to complete the requirements of MCL 28.422(5), how do comply with MCL 28.422(1)???

How do you comply with 28.422(1)? Simple - you go get the licensed described under that statute. Done. That's all you would need to do. In fact, Jared explained this in the other thread.

Who's shooting from the hip??? Who's making **** up???

You, as well as anyone else who isn't correctly citing the law.

Clearly under MCL 28.422(5) the person who acquired the pistol is the "purchaser" It doesn't matter HOW you came to poses the pistol, ("If an individual purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol,"). You become the "purchaser". "The purchaser shall also sign his or her name in ink indicating the purchase or other acquisition of the pistol from the seller." (also from MCL 28.422(5)). I assume you understand the LEGAL meaning of the word "SHALL". It's not a pretty please with sugar on top. It is a COMMAND or REQUIREMENT, not a request.

NOTE: not the definition given in MCL 28.421(1)(j). However, well within the letter and spirit of MCL 28.422(5) and clearly within the intent of the law.

Not the definition in 28.421(1)(j)? How in the bloody hell can you say that a specific definition that is applicable to a particular act isn't applicable?

All of which are issues that would be looked at. And if you had anything meaningful to add to a strategy meeting on the AA and Clio cases you would understand that legislative INTENT is a BIG issue. Laws often don't cover every eventuality, you know. Sometimes the words "Public Schools" get left out of definitions too!

AHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHA

HAHAHA

Oh sweet Jesus. You really don't know who the players in the school lawsuits are, do you?

The last thing to deal with is the "seller". Since MCL 28.422(5) make him/her libel to sign the form "the seller shall fill out the license forms describing the pistol, together with the date of sale or acquisition, and sign his or her name in ink indicating that the pistol was sold to or otherwise acquired by the purchaser.". Note the word "SHALL" again. It's not a pretty please with sugar on top here either! Who "SHALL" sign the form here??? Great Aunt Martha??? The next door neighbor??? Drooling Doug from work??? How about I acquired this pistol from the work I put into the raw materials... Since I acquired the pistol through my efforts, I must be the "seller" within the meaning of MCL 28.422(5). Again not the definition given in MCL 28.421(1)(j). However, well within the letter and spirit of MCL 28.422(5) and clearly within the intent of the law. Blah, blah, blah, blah... see above.

There go you again, talking about the "spirit" of a law. Yes, yesssssss, keep citing those MCIs!

[bigt8261]

tlagnhoj, Jared is trying to help you and I highly suggest you not disregard what he's telling you. Specifically when he gives you direct citations. Ask any MGO attorney and they will also tell you to not ignore Jared. Seriously, ask them.

The person who is acquiring the pistol is the "buyer". The buyer "acquires" the pistol from the "seller". In the case of a self-made pistol, the pistol was "acquired" as a result of the "buyer's own skill. Therefore the buyer applying his/her skill becomes the seller as well. IF the buyer assembles the pistol from parts which were never a pistol AND never a rifle, as may be the case with an AR pistol, the seller is still the buyer through his/her application of skill. However, since the seller is NOT the "manufacturer", merely an assembler of parts, MSP suggests that the name of the "seller" be listed as "Assembled from parts". Although the "seller" MUST still sign the form and that signature would also be that "Buyer's" signature. Meaning that in either case the "seller" IS the "buyer". THIS IS NOWHERE IN THE LAW.

Therefore your quotation of the law is not applicable in THIS instance.

That's not how that works. That's not how that works at all. Neither you, nor the MSP, can just say what the law actually says is "not applicable".

The "seller" is who the "buyer" "acquired" the pistol from. If you acquire the pistol through the application of your own skills, you ARE the seller PERIOD, FULL STOP, END OF SENTENCE.

It is well established in decades of case law that terms are to have their commonly accepted meaning unless otherwise defined in an act. In this case, both "seller" and "purchaser" are defined in the Firearms Act (1927 PA 372). This means that those terms mean what the LAW says that they mean. If those terms don't make sense, tough. Jared pointed to the definitions in the law, and those definitions trump anything that you want to manufacturer out of thin air.

Again, I urge you to slow down and heed what Jared is telling you.

[bigt8261]

tlagnhoj, if you are referencing something from the Firearms Act (1927 PA 372; MCL 28.421 et seq.) and you use the term "purchaser" or "seller" in any manner that does not comport with the following, then you are wrong.

MCL 28.421(1)(j)

(j) "Purchaser" means a person who receives a pistol from another person by purchase or gift.

MCL 28.421(1)(p)

(p) "Seller" means a person who sells or gives a pistol to another person.