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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffman View Post
    If you're not a criminal, AP ammo is legal for you to own or use. There's a PDF on ATF's website that when they were talking about the M855 ban, that "It's perfectly legal for civilians to own AP ammo"
    This is only true of M855 ammunition, which is not armor piercing under 18 USC 921(a)(17). 'Handgun' ammunition with projectiles found to be armor piercing under 18 USC 921(a)(17) is not legal to own and this prohibition is echoed in MCL 750.224c. BATFE has long found both 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm cartridges to be 'handgun' ammunition.


    Quote Originally Posted by Buffman View Post
    M1158/59, no one knows anything about. However M993/M995 has been around for awhile, and it's about $20-30 round to purchase.
    The Nammo (formerly Bofors Carl Gustav) M993 7.62mm projectile has a sintered tungsten carbide (WC) core which uses a cobalt binder. This projectile is weakly magnetic due to the cobalt binder. Sintered tungsten carbide is not very effective as a penetrator and tends to shatter upon impact with most hard armors. Total weight of the M993 7.62mm projectile is 8.3 g, or about 128 grains. A lot of these projectiles have been pulled as the U.S. military has demilled their remaining stocks of M993 cartridges and are being sold in the civilian market. BATFE has not issued an official ruling, but it can be presumed that they would find that M993 7.62mm cartridges would violate 18 USC 921(a)(17). A technical case could be made that sintered tungsten carbide is actually a cermet and not an alloy, but courts are metallurgical idiots.

    The M1158 7.62mm projectile has a liquid phase sintered tungsten alloy (LPS) core. The tungsten is alloyed with nickel and iron and is not magnetic. Liquid phase sintered tungsten alloy cores are true KE penetrator technology; very effective at penetrating hard armors. Total weight of the M1158 7.62mm projectile is 9.8 g, or about 151 grains. None of these projectiles have been sold on the civilian market, but they would be very difficult to distinguish from M80 7.62mm projectiles.
    Last edited by 10x25mm; 03-31-2018 at 09:52 AM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pscipio03 View Post
    How or why would this ever become an issue? I've ordered tons of military pulled bullets from American Reloading, a lot of which have been 7.62 for my 300 BLK and .308 plinking. In what scenario would this get me in trouble?
    Not being a smartass on this, but is the ATF going door-to-door with magnets and checking ammo nowadays? Or is this a SD issue where you're concerned they are going to find out you shot the bad guy with an AP round?
    You have no idea exactly which cartridges pulled bullets are coming from. The U.S. military is demilling millions of M993 7.62mm and M995 5.56mm cartridges which have been withdrawn from inventory due to their undistinguished armor penetration performance. A lot of other ammunition returned from war zones are also being demilled. Demilling operations have become a jumble, so commercially pulled bullet lots could have M993 7.62mm and M995 5.56mm projectiles mixed in. You might inadvertently violate 18 USC 921(a)(17) if you load an M993 7.62mm or M995 5.56mm projectile in a 5.56x45mm or 7.62x51mm cartridge.

    I cannot find any ruling from BATFE that classifies .300 Blackout as 'handgun' ammunition, but they could at any time using the same logic which they used to find both 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm cartridges to be 'handgun' ammunition. Note that 6.5mm Grendel and 6.8mm SPC were so classified in 2011 without any public disclosure. If you load an M993 projectile in a .300 Blackout cartridge, that ammunition could become an 18 USC 921(a)(17) violation somewhere down the road. You would have to be able to prove you loaded the cartridges before BATFE determined .300 Blackout to be 'handgun' ammunition.

    This concern arises from the fate of Douglas Haig, the Arizona reloader who supplied the Las Vegas shooter with armor piercing ammunition. Haig insists that none of the ammunition supplied was armor piercing under 18 USC 921(a)(17), but he was loading commercially pulled bullets. Did he inadvertently load M993 projectiles which were mixed in with other, legal projectiles? A case worth watching.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10x25mm View Post
    You have no idea exactly which cartridges pulled bullets are coming from. The U.S. military is demilling millions of M993 7.62mm and M995 5.56mm cartridges which have been withdrawn from inventory due to their undistinguished armor penetration performance. A lot of other ammunition returned from war zones are also being demilled. Demilling operations have become a jumble, so commercially pulled bullet lots could have M993 7.62mm and M995 5.56mm projectiles mixed in. You might inadvertently violate 18 USC 921(a)(17) if you load an M993 7.62mm or M995 5.56mm projectile in a 5.56x45mm or 7.62x51mm cartridge.

    I cannot find any ruling from BATFE that classifies .300 Blackout as 'handgun' ammunition, but they could at any time using the same logic which they used to find both 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm cartridges to be 'handgun' ammunition. Note that 6.5mm Grendel and 6.8mm SPC were so classified in 2011 without any public disclosure. If you load an M993 projectile in a .300 Blackout cartridge, that ammunition could become an 18 USC 921(a)(17) violation somewhere down the road. You would have to be able to prove you loaded the cartridges before BATFE determined .300 Blackout to be 'handgun' ammunition.

    This concern arises from the fate of Douglas Haig, the Arizona reloader who supplied the Las Vegas shooter with armor piercing ammunition. Haig insists that none of the ammunition supplied was armor piercing under 18 USC 921(a)(17), but he was loading commercially pulled bullets. Did he inadvertently load M993 projectiles which were mixed in with other, legal projectiles? A case worth watching.
    If that's the general concern, I'll avoid selling any reloads. And since I have never done so in the first place, I'm not concerned at all.
    Thanks for the info. Just one more way the murky waters of the BATFE makes it just slightly less useful than a condom in a birthing room.
    Guess I'll lump this in with shouldering a pistol brace as far as concerns go.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10x25mm View Post
    This is only true of M855 ammunition, which is not armor piercing under 18 USC 921(a)(17). 'Handgun' ammunition with projectiles found to be armor piercing under 18 USC 921(a)(17) is not legal to own and this prohibition is echoed in MCL 750.224c. BATFE has long found both 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm cartridges to be 'handgun' ammunition.
    THE ATF themselves stated the following during the M855 ban proposal. Had they banned M855 for our consumption this is their response:

    ATF recognizes that this ammunition [M855] is widely available to the public. Because it is
    legally permissible to possess armor piercing ammunition under current law, withdrawing the
    exemption will not place individuals in criminal possession of armor piercing ammunition.
    However, with few exceptions, manufacturers will be unable to produce such armor piercing
    ammunition, importers will be unable to import such ammunition, and manufacturers and
    importers will be prohibited from selling or distributing the ammunition.8
    So according to MCL 750.224c, it does not apply to:

    (a) A person who manufactures, distributes, sells, or uses armor piercing ammunition in this state, if that manufacture, distribution, sale, or use is not in violation of chapter 44 of title 18 of the United States Code.
    Doesn't sound like civilians are in violation per the ATF for owning and using AP ammo on a federal level, or our state's level.


    Quote Originally Posted by 10x25mm View Post
    The Nammo (formerly Bofors Carl Gustav) M993 7.62mm projectile has a sintered tungsten carbide (WC) core which uses a cobalt binder. This projectile is weakly magnetic due to the cobalt binder. Sintered tungsten carbide is not very effective as a penetrator and tends to shatter upon impact with most hard armors. Total weight of the M993 7.62mm projectile is 8.3 g, or about 128 grains. A lot of these projectiles have been pulled as the U.S. military has demilled their remaining stocks of M993 cartridges and are being sold in the civilian market. BATFE has not issued an official ruling, but it can be presumed that they would find that M993 7.62mm cartridges would violate 18 USC 921(a)(17). A technical case could be made that sintered tungsten carbide is actually a cermet and not an alloy, but courts are metallurgical idiots.

    The M1158 7.62mm projectile has a liquid phase sintered tungsten alloy (LPS) core. The tungsten is alloyed with nickel and iron and is not magnetic. Liquid phase sintered tungsten alloy cores are true KE penetrator technology; very effective at penetrating hard armors. Total weight of the M1158 7.62mm projectile is 9.8 g, or about 151 grains. None of these projectiles have been sold on the civilian market, but they would be very difficult to distinguish from M80 7.62mm projectiles.
    I have a little knowledge at what M993 can do. I believe I have the only publicly available videos of it destroying level IV body armor. I'd love to test it at a distance. I know M995 past 100m can't defeat level IV.

    There is one or two public sources for surplus M993 and M995 rounds, and they are priced accordingly beacause they are RARE, and "finding" them in your .50c/rd surplus loads, is going to be few far and inbetween....

    Quote Originally Posted by 10x25mm View Post
    You should be OK with pure copper bullets, but 18 USC 921(a)(17) never defined brass, bronze, or beryllium copper alloys. Some alloys with as much as 97% copper content are colloquially known as brass, bronze, or beryllium copper alloys. This has never been tested in court, but you don't want to be the guy who gets to fund the court test.
    But the ATF did this with Barnes Banded Solids. That's why Barnes Banded Solids are not solid in .224 and .308 anymore until they get an exemption. A previous FTB said "BBS" in .224 was OK. IN 2011 they revisited the FTB, reversed it, and confiscated $20K worth of inventory from a 5.7 ammo company. Since they were reclassified as AP, they didn't have the right license. None of sold ammo was ever recovered by the ATF.
    Last edited by Buffman; 04-02-2018 at 10:58 PM.

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