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  1. #1
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    Poly Ammo! .... ?Maybe

    Polymer injection formed ammo casings, came up in conversation today and I thought i’d Bring up a thread on poly ammo in general. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-velocity/amp/

    http://www.truevelocityinc.com

    I know it’s a hard sell bringing anything actually new to the ammo world, but I find their processes actually interesting, and the end results. True velocity for example is trying to sell the feature of weight reduction to the whole round. I believe I read an interview/comment that the ceo offered to GIVE the ammo to military, in exchange for the savings in cost of transportation alone for the 40% weight reduction.

    I’m sure there are pros and cons and the cons just haven’t been brought up yet, but I think it’s awesome that people are still trying to improve. I just see the dollar being the bottom line in the long run, could it be made competitively priced to conventional production. And can you reload them?

    On the subject of polymer rounds these have been out for some time and I’ve been eager to try “polycase inceptor ARX” ..

    https://www.inceptorammo.com

    If I remember correctly their beginnings started with trying to invent a polymer shell casing and bullet that was not reuseable or reloadable due to a finding that in some theaters of conflict the “locals” were collecting the brass fired at the “enemy” after the smoke cleared and reloaded it for use in their own firearms to be shot back the next time we rolled through. They never did quite develop the casing they were looking to make (maybe they should hook up with true velocity) but instead developed some intriguing rounds I’d like to try.

    Either way I put this post together as a follow up for the conversation I held earlier today to share the links and talk about these and other innovations (truly inspiring or otherwise).

  2. #2
    MGO LIFE Member MP Miller's Avatar
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    The military buys lots of expensive stuff for weight reduction

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

  3. #3
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    I doubt if they have much ability to provide any large quantities. Also, touting lower shipping costs as a primary benefit is damning with faint praise.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnS624 View Post
    I doubt if they have much ability to provide any large quantities. Also, touting lower shipping costs as a primary benefit is damning with faint praise.
    Weight is not the only benifit of the polymer casings.

    The consistency of the casings interior dimensions reduce variance in velocities resulting in more consistent impacts.

    Temperature conductivity is another potential benefit, as the polymer case doesn’t absorb as much of the heat from powder burn or transfer it through the case to the chamber. They’ve attempted to force a cook off and they had longer times until cook off from residual heat. As well as reduced chamber temperatures firing on cyclic firing allowing for more rounds fired before causing critical temperatures.

    Granted these benefits all remain to be seen as worthy or anything more than hype. Still interesting.

  5. #5
    MGO LIFE Member MP Miller's Avatar
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    I wouldn't underestimate weight benifits in the military. They track every oz of a Soldiers load. If the ammo is less he can carry more or, better yet, they can have him carry more other BS they can develop!!

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  6. #6
    MGO Member Ol` Joe's Avatar
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    This has been tried a few times in the past and government rejected the ammo for multiple reasons. The last time I heard it was a problem with the plastic in full auto arms.

    This is a link to one of these poly cased ammos. http://www.defensereview.com/problem...er-cased-ammo/
    "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt".

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  7. #7
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    The U.S. military appears close to adopting a 6.5mm cased telescoped round using a polymer cartridge case. The Cased Telescoped Small Arms Systems (CTSAS) program grew out of the Lightweight Small Arms Technologies program (LSAT). They appear to have solved the issue of using polymer cases by making them from an advanced, but expensive, polymer and designing all weapons using the CT cartridges with a revolver-like chamber separate from the barrel. Polymer cartridge cases of all types did not meet military requirements in conventional chambered barrels.

    The program is currently in an assessment phase (TRL 7) which has been complicated by recent advancements in body armor. The military does not want to adopt a new cartridge unless it can defeat foreseeable body armor technologies. This is also an issue for current 5.56mm and 7.62mm brass cased cartridges.

    The best open source reference on the status of the Cased Telescoped Small Arms Systems (CTSAS) program is an interview conducted by The Firearm Blog with Mrs. Kori Phillips, the CTSAS program manager. It was published in two parts, and is still available here:

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...al-discussion/
    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...cussion-contd/

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ol` Joe View Post
    This has been tried a few times in the past and government rejected the ammo for multiple reasons. The last time I heard it was a problem with the plastic in full auto arms.

    This is a link to one of these poly cased ammos. http://www.defensereview.com/problem...er-cased-ammo/
    See publication date on the email message defense review is referencing. 2001

    Fast forward 17-18 years

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...-velocity/amp/ November 2017

    Excerpt regarding patent application:
    Shortcomings of the known methods of producing plastic or substantially plastic ammunition include the possibility of the projectile being pushed into the cartridge casing, the bullet pull being too light such that the bullet can fall out, the bullet pull being too insufficient to create sufficient chamber pressure, the bullet pull not being uniform from round to round, and portions of the cartridge casing breaking off upon firing causing the weapon to jam or damage or danger when subsequent rounds are fired or when the casing portions themselves become projectiles. To overcome the above shortcomings, improvements in cartridge case design and performance polymer materials are needed.
    Very broad not very specific regarding design but addressing several issues from the pcp polymer 2014 designs and reviews.

    The only review I have seen is not online, and is in a printed magazine, so far it’s the only review of the product post nov2017, and also the only review discussing having fired the rounds, semi and full auto platforms as well as 50bmg.

    Guns & Ammo June 2018 written: Tom Beckstrand photos: mark fingar
    No one was more skeptical of polymer-cases ammunition than I. My first experience with this type of ammunition occurred more than 10 years ago with another attempt at replacing brass. To say that I was “unimpressed “ is an understatement. I remember that I could squish those black plastic cases in my hand without much effort, and I could press the projectile into the case or pull it out of the neck with my fingertips.

    ....

    Several weeks ago, my opinion of polymer-cases ammunition did a complete 180-degree turn...

    ...

    I tried everything I could think of to make this ammunition fail— and it didn’t.
    He goes on to describe firing the .308; then feeding belts of it through FN mk48 (cyclic rate at 700/minute) TVs work with dillons M134 (cyclic rate of 3000/minute) typically after a 1500 round burst, it’s 3-60 seconds to cook off a find in it, so with Polymer a 2200 round burst didn’t cook off the round it melted and never fired. Which is its own type of problem but you aren’t worrying about an unintended innocent casualty.

    Then a photo and comment showing a guy catching with bare hands a 50bmg ejected shell...
    It wouldn’t be prudent to catch ejected brass from a .50-caliber Barrett m107 this way, but .... the heat goes down the barrel and does not stay with the case.
    That said I am interested to see how this progresses, if some flaw, production, cost, or failure to meet some other milspec standard will cause all of this to flop as it’s predecessors have done. I did find some comment that the cases were recyclable but it implied more the melt it down and start fresh with extruding it in a machine not the bench reloading recycling. Which is a major drawback to getting your civilian shooters to take any interest, unless it can become cost effective for those that don’t reload at all.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10x25mm View Post
    The U.S. military appears close to adopting a 6.5mm cased telescoped round using a polymer cartridge case. The Cased Telescoped Small Arms Systems (CTSAS) program grew out of the Lightweight Small Arms Technologies program (LSAT). They appear to have solved the issue of using polymer cases by making them from an advanced, but expensive, polymer and designing all weapons using the CT cartridges with a revolver-like chamber separate from the barrel. Polymer cartridge cases of all types did not meet military requirements in conventional chambered barrels.

    The program is currently in an assessment phase (TRL 7) which has been complicated by recent advancements in body armor. The military does not want to adopt a new cartridge unless it can defeat foreseeable body armor technologies. This is also an issue for current 5.56mm and 7.62mm brass cased cartridges.

    The best open source reference on the status of the Cased Telescoped Small Arms Systems (CTSAS) program is an interview conducted by The Firearm Blog with Mrs. Kori Phillips, the CTSAS program manager. It was published in two parts, and is still available here:

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...al-discussion/
    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...cussion-contd/
    This is along the lines of developing new firearms specific to a new polymer casing, what I am talking about is designed casings compatible with existing firearms not a new class of firearm and ammo all together... remember the AR-12...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    This is along the lines of developing new firearms specific to a new polymer casing, what I am talking about is designed casings compatible with existing firearms not a new class of firearm and ammo all together... remember the AR-12...
    Fairly certain that ARDEC rejected the PPS(polyphenylene sulfide)/PAS(polyarylsulfone)/PPO(polyphenylene oxide)/PAC(polyarylcarbonate) alloys used in the True Velocity cartridge case back in 2005 due to high and low temperature performance deficits. This is why ARDEC launched the CTSAS program. See Chung and Sadowski, ADA 434658, Alternative Case Materials and Design:

    http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA434658

    The True Velocity PPS/PAS/PPO/PAC alloy case may work well in civilian arms under mild conditions, but lacks sufficient high temperature strength to meet military requirements in conventional chambered barrels in closed bolt firing weapons.

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