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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    Will and I tried to get an 850 yard range built at Blue Water. It was approved at the BoD meeting in the fall of 2017 but then Will and I and the other major supporters on the BoD lost our bid to get reelected at the Jan 2018 member meeting. So, once out, they reversed course. The real problem is that just about everyone said "Yeah, I'll join the club IF you build the range". That don't cut it folks. We needed to pack the BoD meeting and keep the folks who support these types of ranges in positions where they can make things happen. That means join the club first and pust for it. If everyone of the people who said they would join, actually joined then came to that meeting to vote to keep the folks on the Board who supported the range, you would have an 850 yard range at Blue Water today. And for the record there were only around 175 members out of around 2000 members elegible to vote who actually came out and voted! Yup, it's pure mob rule folks. And this is why you have to drive to MTC or Youngs or where ever to shoot.

    The only way a new long range facility is going to get built is for one to be build at an existing club. The politics of noise and safety today will make it essentially impossible for any "new" range facility to get constructed. Look what the DNR had to go through to get Island Lake built!
    I should have finished reading the thread, I didnt see your response until after I posted. You said it better anyway though.

  2. #12
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    BWSA was so close to having an 850yd range. Ultimately, it was torpedoed by some members on the board who sought to undermine it being built (read: FUDDs). Using conservative estimates, it would have provided at least an additional $48,000 in profit to the club, which would not only have made it the most profitable aspects of BWSA but would have alone accounted for almost 20% of the clubs revenue. It is truly a shame that the range never got built. There was a huge outpouring of support for the range from the shooting community, so there is definitely a desire for this type of range in SE Michigan. O well, that ship has sailed.

    I commend Oakland Tactical for moving forward with their plans and support it 100%. There is nothing "unsafe" about long range shooting. Arguably, it is the most safe form of shooting considering that almost all gun handling is done from a static prone position. The shooting community needs to have more of a backbone when it comes to advocating for ranges.

    If anyone had a direct line to the folks at Oakland Tactical, send me a PM. I'm the moderator for a number of online precision rifle groups and can muster some resources to help drum up support for the range.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boarder1 View Post
    All-
    I was in OAKLAND TACTICAL the other day and on their front desk was a "petition" looking for signatures of those who would like a 1000yd rifle range in Howell twp.

    I dont really know all the details, but apparently the owner of the shop is hoping to build a 1000yd range in Howell and is being blocked by the township board or something like that.

    Just throwing it out there to let people know that if you are in the area stop in, buy something from this guy, and show your support.
    This is something that is really needed in the Michigan Gun community, as it does not currently exist as far as I'm aware.

    Regards
    It does exist. Marksmanship Training Center, Lake City
    Last edited by DP425; 02-04-2019 at 08:43 PM.

  4. #14
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    First of all MTC is awesome. Enough said!

    The only issue with most folks (i.e., the major population centers in Michigan) is that MTC is a 3+ hour drive. This severely limits how often you can use the range. The reality is that most people cannot take a full day or multi-day trip to the range - work, family, life, and other demands just don't permit for it. However, if a long distance range was built within 1.5 hours of metro-Detroit, then you'd have a lot more people who participated in the sport. I mean seriously, on any given weekend I can shoot a 3-gun, pistol match, or shotgun matches within an hour of where I live. There's dozens of small ranges and sportsman's clubs in SE Michigan that host these matches. It's surprising that there isn't anything for the long range crowd in SE Michigan, because there is certainly a demand for it.

    Some enterprising farmer needs to decide that selling memberships at $300 a piece (to a few hundred people) is worth the time and effort to put up some berms!

  5. #15
    MGO Member Roundballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RECON762WT View Post
    Some enterprising farmer needs to decide that selling memberships at $300 a piece (to a few hundred people) is worth the time and effort to put up some berms!
    Unfortunately, it is not as easy as just that. First, you would have to get past the local zoning board, and all of the NIMBY people. Then you would have to get insurance, and find a way to monitor the use of the range. There are toooo many that think they can shoot LD, and have no practical ability at all.

    Some guy that can't do better than 10~12 MOA at 100 yrs wants to "stretch" his rifle out, because he bought an Elk hunt out west. His spread could be 10~12 FEET at 1000 yrds, that is if he can figure out what his drop (or come-ups) are at that range. A guy that runs a range like that has to account for the lowest common denominator.


    Life Member, NRA, Lapeer County Sportsmen's Club Disclaimer: I Am Not A Lawyer. Opinions expressed are not representative of any organization to which I may belong, and are solely mine. Any natural person or legal entity reading this post accepts all responsibility for any actions undertaken by that person or entity, based upon what they perceived was contained in this post, and shall hold harmless this poster, his antecedents, and descendants, in perpetuity.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roundballer View Post
    Unfortunately, it is not as easy as just that. First, you would have to get past the local zoning board, and all of the NIMBY people. Then you would have to get insurance, and find a way to monitor the use of the range. There are toooo many that think they can shoot LD, and have no practical ability at all.

    Some guy that can't do better than 10~12 MOA at 100 yrs wants to "stretch" his rifle out, because he bought an Elk hunt out west. His spread could be 10~12 FEET at 1000 yrds, that is if he can figure out what his drop (or come-ups) are at that range. A guy that runs a range like that has to account for the lowest common denominator.
    And we have a LOT of those now-a-days.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roundballer View Post
    Unfortunately, it is not as easy as just that. First, you would have to get past the local zoning board, and all of the NIMBY people. Then you would have to get insurance, and find a way to monitor the use of the range. There are toooo many that think they can shoot LD, and have no practical ability at all.

    Some guy that can't do better than 10~12 MOA at 100 yrs wants to "stretch" his rifle out, because he bought an Elk hunt out west. His spread could be 10~12 FEET at 1000 yrds, that is if he can figure out what his drop (or come-ups) are at that range. A guy that runs a range like that has to account for the lowest common denominator.
    Thanks for the education!

    Someone has to be able to put in the leg work, but its not out of the realm of the obtainable. There are plenty of rural communities that would probably welcome such a club (for the additional tax revenue and/or patronage of existing businesses). Its weird working with these rural communities (which I've done for Wind Farms and Medical Marijuana zoning), some are all about new business coming to town, others close their doors. It just depends. Anything in Oakland county is going to be a tough sell, but not impossible. I think from a community perspective, it would certainly be better to open sportsman's club with a long distance range than a long distance range only. You'd also be able to take advantage of a non-profit status, get wildlife easements, other grants, etc.

    Also the phantom worry about people not being able to shoot long distance is a red hearing. It's simple, vet your members and hold them accountable, and have redundant safety features. Same thing every range does (MTC included). Make them take a class, qualify, etc. This isn't a hard concept to wrap your head around. Note, since I've been involved in the shooting sports and probably shot a few hundred different matches (shotgun, pistol, rifle, 3-gun, long range, etc.) I have never seen an accident occur at a long distance match or on a long distance range - the positions are just too static. I have seen numerous accidents occur when people are holstering their sidearms though or at ""skeet leagues"" where drinking is involved. Unsafe gun handling is unsafe gun handling, and you can never fully account for the lowest common denominator (otherwise you wouldn't run a shooting range at all). Ohio has three long distance ranges, to the best of my knowledge, none of them have any issues.

  8. #18
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    The logistics will be a nightmare. To build a range at minimum will have to strictly adhere to US Military and NRA range layout, fan, impact zone and beyond berm design rules. Finding tracts of land in SE MI where farm land sells for $4000 - $6000+ an acre in a large enough tract is going to take some deep pockets even before the lawyers spend years fighting to get zoning and govt approval. Long gone are the days of buying 20 or 40 acres and forming a shooting club and range. People are afraid of bullets period. There is always a chance that one can and will get away. There is also a pretty good chance that some idiot will buy land directly beyond your impact area if you don’t own that land and build a house.

    Vetting and qualifications are fine and dandy and fail miserably at their goals all of the time. Without physical constraints (baffles, tubes, etc) there is always the opportunity to put one over the berm or out the side. Slam fires can and do happen.

    SE Michigan is just too congested for something like this to be feasible IMO. I hope I am wrong. I hate having to drive 4 hours to Camp Grayling and MTC to shoot MRPA LR. Or 3 hours to Alliance in Ohio.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rootsy View Post
    The logistics will be a nightmare. To build a range at minimum will have to strictly adhere to US Military and NRA range layout, fan, impact zone and beyond berm design rules. Wrong. Nothing that the U.S. Military does is binding on a civilian range or Sortsman's club. So that's a nonissue. Moreover the NRA range construction handbook calls for a 20' impact berm, and 8' intermediate berms (also 12' side berms if that would even apply). And again, the NRA's guidelines are not binding nor are they law. Setback distances for gun ranges are usually controlled by local zoning ordinances - i.e., 250' from any lot line containing a residential structure. Finding tracts of land in SE MI where farm land sells for $4000 - $6000+ an acre in a large enough tract is going to take some deep pockets even before the lawyers spend years fighting to get zoning and govt approval. Long gone are the days of buying 20 or 40 acres and forming a shooting club and range. The land is a determining factor. It has to be in an area where there are favorable zoning ordinances (like in Kimball Twp. where you can operate a 'gun club' on agriculturally zoned property. Obviously, you aren't going to have a range that is being a shopping center - o wait, that's BWSA - well, maybe a school then, but there is a lot of rural property where there are large tracts of land with no homes or structures for hundreds of yards. People are afraid of bullets period. There is always a chance that one can and will get away. Then why shoot firearms at all?? There is also a pretty good chance that some idiot will buy land directly beyond your impact area if you don’t own that land and build a house. Key word 'idiot'. The Michigan Shooting Range Protection Act also acts as a shield to any nuisance claims in that scenario. Insurance and/or common sense should take care of the rest.

    Vetting and qualifications are fine and dandy and fail miserably at their goals all of the time. Without physical constraints (baffles, tubes, etc) there is always the opportunity to put one over the berm or out the side. Slam fires can and do happen. This attitude is exactly why people don't have places to shoot. Requiring gun clubs to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on overly burdensome safety features is what prevents them from opening. Even if you read the NRA range construction manual, everything is a "suggestion" not a requirement to range construction, so to the extent that you think some type of baffle is a requirement, it is not. Moreover, very few ranges in SE Michigan have effective baffle systems (i.e., steel or concrete) those little baffles made out of 2"x6" lumber are noting more than decorative pergolas - a bullet will sail right through those and keep on going. They are just 'feel good measures.' To your point about "slam fires," they can happen on any range - doesn't need to be a 1,000 yd range. You can never entirely eliminate the risk associated with shooting firearms, so you can mitigate that fact through reasonable safety features or just use airsoft guns.

    SE Michigan is just too congested for something like this to be feasible IMO. I hope I am wrong. I hate having to drive 4 hours to Camp Grayling and MTC to shoot MRPA LR. Or 3 hours to Alliance in Ohio. I agree to some extent, it would be an uphill battle to get a 1,000 range in SE Michigan. But I think there are a lot of areas that are right for this (in fact I know one land owner who has a 1,000 yd range in Monroe county and another who has an 850 yard range in Washetnaw County). There is a lot of rural property, it just need to make the stars align. Like I said, some farmer needs to decide to put up some berms and start charging membership fees (cough cough . . . I hope he is reading this). .
    I'm not attacking anyone in particular, but the tone of some of the post in this thread are pretty unremarkable. Gun owners need to nut the **#$ up and stop whining about why something shouldn't happen - and instead - step aside, and let those with the resources and wherewithal to build a 1,000 yard range pursue that project. Better yet, instead of standing in the face of progress, try supporting such an endeavor by signing a petition or writing a letter. I don't see how having another gun range in SE Michigan (any gun range) is a bad thing. The collective "we" as gun owners need to support the shooting sports and ranges as a matter of policy in order to change public perception and bring more people into the fold.

    Just my two cents . . .

  10. #20
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    What I am saying is that the safety of anyone and everyone inside and outside of a range needs to be priority #1. If you can’t guarantee that with some degree of certainty you need to put means in place to mitigate risk to an acceptable threshold for the public at large (IE Govt and Lawyers). Everything else is secondary. The days of being grandfathered are over. Any new range is going to have to pass strict scrutiny by any number of alphabet entities that wish to have a say in it.

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