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Thread: HB 4200 & 4201 of 2019 - Modify penalties for Concealed Carry of a Pistol in Prohibited Areas

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    HB 4200 & 4201 of 2019 - Modify penalties for Concealed Carry of a Pistol in Prohibited Areas

    HB 4200 of 2019
    Weapons; concealed; penalties for open-carry of a concealed pistol in prohibited areas; modify. Amends sec. 5o of 1927 PA 372 (MCL 28.425o).
    Last Action: 2/20/2019 bill electronically reproduced 02/19/2019

    HB 4201 of 2019
    Weapons; concealed; sentencing guidelines; update. Amends sec. 11b, ch. XVII of 1927 PA 175 (MCL 777.11b). TIE BAR WITH: HB 4200'19
    Last Action: 2/20/2019 bill electronically reproduced 02/19/2019
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    Strangely, their description of this bill is "penalties for open-carry of a concealed pistol in prohibited areas".

    First off, what the heck is "open-carry" of a "concealed pistol"?

    Second, this bill (currently) has nothing to do with open-carry. It simply removes any criminal offense for carrying a concealed pistol in a prohibited area and makes it a simple $100 civil infraction (down from $500), regardless of the number of recurrences, whereas currently, a second offense is a $1,000 misdemeanor and a third offense is a $5,000 felony.
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  3. #3
    MGO Member Roundballer's Avatar
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    To understand these bills, one just has to look at the actors.

    This really does nothing for us. It is not an improvement in the law, it just lessens fines. This is what my representative calls "pro 2A", so of course, he hops onboard with it.
    For him, this is all about retaining support. He is going to need a pile of them. I suspect the motive is the same for the rest of them too.


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  4. #4
    Eisen must know what he's doing, since he serves as national sports chair for AAU USA Target Shooting.
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    I would gladly welcome this bill's passing.

    IF I decided to conceal carry in a prohibited place…
    IF I got caught (which I always am more concerned about being caught by virtue of needing my pistol for self-defense reasons and then being painted as a criminal afterward since I was carrying in a prohibited place)…

    It is just a $100 "ticket" with no criminal ramifications…no losing my CPL for 6 months…no being deemed a "felon" and permanently losing my rights to possess ANY firearms, let alone concealed.

    Even if it was a matter of being "caught" casually (i.e., someone sees my pistol printing as I am sitting down, for example)…I'd rather face a $100 "ticket" vs $500…and fear of it EVER happening EVER again, lest I end-up with a criminal record.

    Sure, I'd rather see complete abolishment of "prohibited places"…better yet, complete abolishment of having to have a CPL…but there is NO QUESTION THAT this is a step in the right direction. Making a law abiding citizen into a criminal because they didn't realize that a restaurant might happen to meet the statutory definition of a "bar"…even though they didn't drink a drop of alcohol is NOT good…this is better.
    Don't let yesterday use up too much of today - Will Rogers
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhotoTom View Post
    Strangely, their description of this bill is "penalties for open-carry of a concealed pistol in prohibited areas".

    First off, what the heck is "open-carry" of a "concealed pistol"?

    Second, this bill (currently) has nothing to do with open-carry. It simply removes any criminal offense for carrying a concealed pistol in a prohibited area and makes it a simple $100 civil infraction (down from $500), regardless of the number of recurrences, whereas currently, a second offense is a $1,000 misdemeanor and a third offense is a $5,000 felony.
    I mean... that sounds like an improvement.
    Maybe we ought to be baby stepping our way to freedom in the same way that the antigun folks have been baby stepping us to tyranny.
    I agree that it's not perfect, but I'll bet every once of us have had a concealed gun in a prohibited area and not even known it.
    Eg I have no way of knowing what percent of a business' income comes from alcohol sales by the glass, and I'll bet that some of the restaurants I've eaten my dinner at (while not drinking their house brews) crossed the line.
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    Administrator G22's Avatar
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    My question would be, if this passes and its lowered to a CI, how will that affect the conditions of the SDA?

    The SDA says:

    (1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if either of the following applies:
    Isn't a CI still a crime, albeit a much lesser one?
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    Quote Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    My question would be, if this passes and its lowered to a CI, how will that affect the conditions of the SDA?

    The SDA says:



    Isn't a CI still a crime, albeit a much lesser one?
    Misdemeanors and Felonies are criminal offenses and remain on your record.

    Civil Infractions are simply "tickets"…no different than getting an "Impeding Traffic" ticket once the subsequent ramifications are removed (i.e., subsequent offenses that become misdemeanors, then felonies). As it stands now, the first offense is a $500 civil infraction AND a 6 month suspension of your CPL. A second offense is a $1,000 misdemeanor criminal offense (actually it will cost more since you will have to go to court and should hire a lawyer).

    You will notice that there is no "within X (months or years)…if you have EVER been ticketed for carrying in a prohibited place…and if you EVER do it again, it is a criminal offense and you lose your CPL (but can reapply for it after the prescribed time elapses).

    Take a look at the wording of the law:

    (6) An individual who violates this section is responsible for a state civil infraction or guilty of a crime as follows:

    (a) Except as provided in subdivisions (b) and (c), the individual is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $500.00. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol suspended for 6 months.

    (b) For a second violation, the individual is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of not more than $1,000.00. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol revoked.

    (c) For a third or subsequent violation, the individual is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both. The court shall order the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol revoked.
    A civil infraction is not a criminal offense.
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  9. #9
    Administrator G22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhotoTom View Post
    Misdemeanors and Felonies are criminal offenses and remain on your record.

    Civil Infractions are simply "tickets"…no different than getting an "Impeding Traffic" ticket once the subsequent ramifications are removed (i.e., subsequent offenses that become misdemeanors, then felonies). As it stands now, the first offense is a $500 civil infraction AND a 6 month suspension of your CPL. A second offense is a $1,000 misdemeanor criminal offense (actually it will cost more since you will have to go to court and should hire a lawyer).

    You will notice that there is no "within X (months or years)…if you have EVER been ticketed for carrying in a prohibited place…and if you EVER do it again, it is a criminal offense and you lose your CPL (but can reapply for it after the prescribed time elapses).

    Take a look at the wording of the law:



    A civil infraction is not a criminal offense.
    I understand that, however the SDA doesn't say anything about criminal offense, it says 'crime'.

    Wiki:

    In ordinary language, a crime is an unlawful act punishable by a state or other authority. The term "crime" does not, in modern criminal law, have any simple and universally accepted definition, though statutory definitions have been provided for certain purposes. The most popular view is that crime is a category created by law; in other words, something is a crime if declared as such by the relevant and applicable law.
    What is the definition of the word 'crime' as it pertains to the SDA?
    "The Constitution is NOT dead. It's just being held captive." anthonyt

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    Quote Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    I understand that, however the SDA doesn't say anything about criminal offense, it says 'crime'.

    What is the definition of the word 'crime' as it pertains to the SDA?
    In MICHIGAN:
    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-600-113

    (a) “Civil infraction” means an act or omission that is prohibited by a law and is not a crime under that law or that is prohibited by an ordinance and is not a crime under that ordinance, and for which civil sanctions may be ordered.
    Keep in mind, it is ALREADY a civil infraction to carry a concealed pistol in a prohibited area, so the most direct answer to your question "if this passes and its lowered to a CI, how will that affect the conditions of the SDA?"…it has no bearing on a first offense (since it is the same category), yet it removes the clearly defined criminal offense from any subsequent incidents of carrying concealed in a prohibited area.
    Don't let yesterday use up too much of today - Will Rogers
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