My new S&W 617 is spitting at me

[Fuel Fire Desire]

Police have been known to use their revolvers as impact weapons, especially back in the revolver era after nightsticks were withdrawn from service.

I have seen several police Smith revolvers with off axis barrels due to bent frames. They tend to misbehave during shooting and print well off their sights.

This one absolutely was. The original grip looked like it was used as a hammer.

[joepistol]

They will make it right..
I'll say that I agree with this.." The pic looks like it's not correctly aligning the cylinder and the forcing cone..."
which could be caused by a timing issue...they probably only test fire a few rds. @ the factory, not enough for this issue to show up.
For only 50 rds.. in your picture, looks like a LOT of lead built up..mostly in one area.

[Ryan01228]

They will make it right..
I'll say that I agree with this.." The pic looks like it's not correctly aligning the cylinder and the forcing cone..."
which could be caused by a timing issue...they probably only test fire a few rds. @ the factory, not enough for this issue to show up.
For only 50 rds.. in your picture, looks like a LOT of lead built up..mostly in one area.

They will fix it and also include a “letter” indicating the importance of cleaning. I hear they include it with every .22 wheel gun they service.

[garbler]

Some of you people have a lot more faith in the factory than I do. S&W is a plant full of parts handlers and assemblers with CNC equipment. There are very few who are shooters or know anything about guns.Here is a run down on rimfire diagnosis that may or may not be doable for the average person but was what was done when I was in the business.

Range the gun on all chambers. Ranging is done with a range rod using a bore specific plug screwed to the end. These plugs are precision ground to fit the barrel. Insert the rod thru the muzzle and run it in until it hits the recoil shield ( round face of frame behind cylinder). You must have hammer fully cocked and listen for and feel how the range plus goes. The slightest click or noise where it jumps the barrel to the cylinder indicates alignment issues. Worse case you will actually see the cylinder move to swallow the plug. Any real revolver mechanic should have the appropriate range rod for your caliber.

With feeler gauge measure your cylinder to barrel gap. Measure on all chambers and feel for loose and tight and note which are which. I suggest felt pen number each chamber -- you need this later. With rim fires any larger gap ( .008 + ) will usually result in excessive gas and powder residue escaping. These larger gaps are generally okay for a centerfire but create problems for the 22’s. Anything less than .003 -.004" is getting a bit too tight and with typically dirty and less than precise soft lead bullets can create deposits on the breech face/forcing cone of the barrel and face of cylinder. So you need to note which are tight and which are not. Any appreciable difference in gap indicates possible bent yoke or untrue cylinder face.

Inspect the breech face of the barrel to confirm its 90° or true to the barrel axis. Then with a bore light closely inspect the forcing cone area to confirm there is a shallow to 11° cone. If there is none or very little it's a problem but any good revolver smith can cut one in the frame ( don't pay to remove barrel for this ) . A good comp job would include the time it takes to lap the cone to a smooth polished surface.

Now set up some white copier paper or cardboard on both sides of the cylinder to barrel gap and fire a cylinder full. Make a note of which chamber ( by number ) is spitting the most. Remember all revolvers allow gas escapement so it is important to determine powder residue from lead particles. The hot powder particles usually leave burn spots on the paper and lead particles hit and fall below for indentification . Is it powder residue or actual lead shavings ? If it's powder then it's usually cylinder gap or poor chamber throats. If it's lead then it's forcing cone or alignment. The range rod and feeler gauge measurements will answer this..

A couple of other considerations or remarks. 22 revolver almost never develop end shake in the yoke/cylinder as this is an accumulation of tolerances created by high pressure rounds such as the 357, 41 and 44 mags. If you are unfortunate enough to have excessive cylinder gap then I'm sorry to say it will cost you. The only remedy for this is the remove the barrel, chuck it into lathe and set the barrel back by removing metal at the shoulder. When these jobs came to my shop I'd almost always discuss an aftermarket target quality barrel if the owner was a competitor.

If when ranging the gun you discover a problem and it's not the yoke or cylinder alignment then the next suspect will be cylinder stop issues or possibly timing. Timing problems are not as easy to diagnose since the hand and cylinder ratchet faces come into play. Everything can be fixed but I've got little faith in S&W anymore. They gutted the benches of real mechanics back when the British bought them in the 80’s . They installed CNC equipment and proclaimed with this degree of repeatable accuracy they could get rid of expensive experienced help and reduce the QA department to nothing more than phone operators and shipping hands. This company is firmly controlled by accounting and advertising both of which no nothing about building and turning out good guns.

[tkurban53]

Some of you people have a lot more faith in the factory than I do. S&W is a plant full of parts handlers and assemblers with CNC equipment. There are very few who are shooters or know anything about guns.Here is a run down on rimfire diagnosis that may or may not be doable for the average person but was what was done when I was in the business.

Range the gun on all chambers. Ranging is done with a range rod using a bore specific plug screwed to the end. These plugs are precision ground to fit the barrel. Insert the rod thru the muzzle and run it in until it hits the recoil shield ( round face of frame behind cylinder). You must have hammer fully cocked and listen for and feel how the range plus goes. The slightest click or noise where it jumps the barrel to the cylinder indicates alignment issues. Worse case you will actually see the cylinder move to swallow the plug. Any real revolver mechanic should have the appropriate range rod for your caliber.

With feeler gauge measure your cylinder to barrel gap. Measure on all chambers and feel for loose and tight and note which are which. I suggest felt pen number each chamber -- you need this later. With rim fires any larger gap ( .008 + ) will usually result in excessive gas and powder residue escaping. These larger gaps are generally okay for a centerfire but create problems for the 22’s. Anything less than .003 -.004" is getting a bit too tight and with typically dirty and less than precise soft lead bullets can create deposits on the breech face/forcing cone of the barrel and face of cylinder. So you need to note which are tight and which are not. Any appreciable difference in gap indicates possible bent yoke or untrue cylinder face.

Inspect the breech face of the barrel to confirm its 90° or true to the barrel axis. Then with a bore light closely inspect the forcing cone area to confirm there is a shallow to 11° cone. If there is none or very little it's a problem but any good revolver smith can cut one in the frame ( don't pay to remove barrel for this ) . A good comp job would include the time it takes to lap the cone to a smooth polished surface.

Now set up some white copier paper or cardboard on both sides of the cylinder to barrel gap and fire a cylinder full. Make a note of which chamber ( by number ) is spitting the most. Remember all revolvers allow gas escapement so it is important to determine powder residue from lead particles. The hot powder particles usually leave burn spots on the paper and lead particles hit and fall below for indentification . Is it powder residue or actual lead shavings ? If it's powder then it's usually cylinder gap or poor chamber throats. If it's lead then it's forcing cone or alignment. The range rod and feeler gauge measurements will answer this..

A couple of other considerations or remarks. 22 revolver almost never develop end shake in the yoke/cylinder as this is an accumulation of tolerances created by high pressure rounds such as the 357, 41 and 44 mags. If you are unfortunate enough to have excessive cylinder gap then I'm sorry to say it will cost you. The only remedy for this is the remove the barrel, chuck it into lathe and set the barrel back by removing metal at the shoulder. When these jobs came to my shop I'd almost always discuss an aftermarket target quality barrel if the owner was a competitor.

If when ranging the gun you discover a problem and it's not the yoke or cylinder alignment then the next suspect will be cylinder stop issues or possibly timing. Timing problems are not as easy to diagnose since the hand and cylinder ratchet faces come into play. Everything can be fixed but I've got little faith in S&W anymore. They gutted the benches of real mechanics back when the British bought them in the 80’s . They installed CNC equipment and proclaimed with this degree of repeatable accuracy they could get rid of expensive experienced help and reduce the QA department to nothing more than phone operators and shipping hands. This company is firmly controlled by accounting and advertising both of which no nothing about building and turning out good guns.

What a great post. Can you please go to work for S&W now?

[Stevie-Ray]

I shot a guy's .44 magnum upon request, as he was having trouble. It turned out to be ill-timed, and cost me a bit of a bloody face. Told him what to do and he also sent his back. Bunch of years ago.

[garbler]

I'm sorry you had injuries to your face but I'm not sure how or why. It's kind of fashionable these days to proclaim a revolver has timing issues. It's always possible, but in actuality not that common on guns like a model 29. The 29 44 mags are rarely shot too much in double action. In fact there are more cherry 29's in the gunshops for sale simply cause a cylinder full in SA was enough for the 'Dirty Harry ' reinactors. Those who hammer back and shoot SA most of the time are not going to wear a revolver enough to result in timing problems. Shooting the gun in DA brings the sear and hand into another level of interaction that after a high round count of full power can wear the hand and cylinder ratchets. You mentioned " problems " then shot the gun anyway. Maybe that's the last time you will roll the dice like that.

Regards
Rick

[Stevie-Ray]

The "trouble" he was having was with accuracy. Since I was also shooting a .44 at the time, my Redhawk, I figured he may have been simply flinching. I shot it once and got the flecks in my face, and so emptied it and inspected. The forcing cone was heavily leaded on the left side and I told him. And I never said it was a S&W, it was in fact an Astra.

[joepistol]

I bought a used S&W 617 from a member on MGO a few years ago..
Was cleaning it after a range trip & noticed what I thought was leading/ powder residue in one of the cylinder chambers.
Took pistol to Doug Jones to have him take a look @ it..after I'd put some serious effort in trying to remove it.
Doug used his giant magnifying ring, with a light around it, to inspect & then show me the area.
As he pointed out, it was a defect in the wall of the chamber..a crater-like void in the metal.
Discussed a few options,& best one seemed to be to contact S&W,to see what they would say, which I did.
They sent a prepaid mailed to return the 617 to them..& it was returned, with a new cylinder installed.
I had been honest, & told them I'd bought the pistol a short time ago from the original purchaser.
There was no charge for the repair, or for the shipping in both directions.

[tkurban53]

S&W received it yesterday, on their dime.. I called today to set my expectations on turnaround and was told right now it's four weeks. Very bad, in my opinion. That tells me they have quite a backlog, and is consistent with earlier comments about them being short on professionals and long on assemblers of poor quality components.