How to obtain an FFL License in MI

[93bandit]

I've read the ATF website concerning getting an FFL License, but I have a few MI specific questions. I read some mentions that there can be local county/city laws pertaining to FFL's in addition to the Federal laws. Can anyone give me examples of what these laws are?

Also, on the ATF website they mention a "proper licensing fee" when mailing in the completed application. How much is the fee? I assume having an FFL requires yearly fees to keep the license current. What are the yearly costs of having an FFL?

In the FFL application process they interview you. What kind of interview is it? Do you have to quote the laws to ensure you're well versed in them, or is it more like a character interview to make sure you aren't some type of wackjob?

Lastly, is an individual who has an FFL required to due transfers for customers? Or can an FFL dealer only obtain the license for their own purchases?

I'm considering becoming an FFL someday in the future, but I'm unsure of everything involved.

Any information is appreciated. I know I could find answers to some of these questions on Google, but I have more confidence in answers I receive here than other areas of the web.

[Scoop]

Your biggest roadblock will be zoning. If your city/township/municipality won't allow you to run a business, you are pretty much up sheets creek. Unless you want to rent out something somewhere where zoning allows it.

Your second biggest roadblock would be your homeowner's association. If the bylaws forbid running a home based business, be prepared to fight the HoA in court if they are a-holes.

The type of FFL license you apply for drives what type of Home Occupation Class business you have to be allowed to run (zoning/HOA). For an 01 FFL (dealer only), zoning needs to allow a Home Occupation Class 1 business. If an 07 FFL (manufacturing, including assembly of parts), zoning must allow a class 2.

Beyond these, an FFL is pretty much a shall issue license (like your CPL). As long as you haven't done X, Y or Z, and as long as the primary purpose of obtaining your FFL is to run a business (and not just to get cheap stuff for yourself), you'll be fine.

Initial fee for your FFL is on the application itself. The type of license you get drives the fee. For example, 01 FFL dealer is $200 up front for the first three years, then (IIRC) $90 per three year period for renewal.

Yearly costs? Depends upon how you want to run it. DBA? LLC? Overhead costs? The costs are really based on the business structure, not the FFL license itself.

IOI interview: Fairly basic. They go over your application making sure it's all correct. Then they go over a bunch of stuff you're supposed to know. It's not like a knowledge or proficiency test or anything, but it's always a good idea to be prepeared for common questions about federal (and state) law so they now you're not a complete doofus.

The purpose of obtaining an FFL is to run a business. That's what they want. Whether you do transfers or buy/sell, the gist of it is that you're running a business to make money. If you're doing it just to get wholesale prices for you and your friends and free transfers, then you won't be getting an FFL (unless you lie to the IOI - not advised).

PM me if you'd like to discuss any further.

Scoop

[SteveS]

I've read the ATF website concerning getting an FFL License, but I have a few MI specific questions. I read some mentions that there can be local county/city laws pertaining to FFL's in addition to the Federal laws. Can anyone give me examples of what these laws are?

Most of these are probably zoning requirements. Some places have prohibitions against home-based businesses. IME, most places don't have any restrictions against an FFL.

In the FFL application process they interview you. What kind of interview is it? Do you have to quote the laws to ensure you're well versed in them, or is it more like a character interview to make sure you aren't some type of wackjob?

They go over many of the rules and requirements. They also toss in a few things that aren't laws, but are what they believe is good policy. They confirm with the municipality that it is ok to have that type business where you propose to have it.

Lastly, is an individual who has an FFL required to due transfers for customers? Or can an FFL dealer only obtain the license for their own purchases?

I'm considering becoming an FFL someday in the future, but I'm unsure of everything involved.

You don't have to do transfers for anyone and you can pick and choose. You can also just do transfers. There are some FFLs that work out of their homes and don't maintain an inventory. Their only business is transfers and special orders. As the previous poster pointed out, there are many options.


What do you want to do?

[SteveS]

If the bylaws forbid running a home based business, you're again up sheets creek. Same deal.

If only this were true.

I have represented HOAs and people against HOAs. You would be surprised at how much stuff courts will not enforce or that is unenforceable.

[Scoop]

As the previous poster pointed out, there are many options.

Previous poster? Over 16 years of history here @ MGO, and all I get is "previous poster"?? J/K

93bandit - Don't you live over by me, or is that someone else I'm thinking of?

[SteveS]

Previous poster? Over 16 years of history here @ MGO, and all I get is "previous poster"?? J/K

93bandit - Don't you live over by me, or is that someone else I'm thinking of?

Actually, I had to edit my post because you got in just ahead of me, so I was just being concise. Yours was thorough and, since you just got yours, is probably very close to what someone can expect now.

[Scoop]

If only this were true.

I have represented HOAs and people against HOAs. You would be surprised at how much stuff courts will not enforce or that is unenforceable.

My only point was that a long, drawn out fight with the HoA for an FFL can be time consuming and costly (with costly being a relative term), and many people simply give up on getting their FFL because they decide it's not worth the hassle or cost.

I will revise my OP.

[93bandit]

What do you want to do?

Ah, the million dollar question. I want to do a few things. First of all, I want to purchase firearms for myself without having to go through an FFL, for simplicity sake. Also, I'd like to do transfers on the side as a little additional income.

Lastly, I would like to manufacture for myself, suppressors, but specifically automatic firearms. I have read that buying or manufacturing a "machine gun" requires an FFL and an STO. So that's pretty much my end goal.

93bandit - Don't you live over by me, or is that someone else I'm thinking of?

Yeah, that's me, but my current living situation is temporary. I'll likely be moving east in a year or so, hence my comment in the OP that I want to become an FFL "someday." From what I understand, you can't be an FFL therefore have a business in a rental residency. So I'm waiting until we buy a house, but until that day comes I'm just trying to become informed so I can be ready.

BTW, I appreciate the insight guys.

[Scoop]

Ah, the million dollar question. I want to do a few things. First of all, I want to purchase firearms for myself without having to go through an FFL, for simplicity sake. Also, I'd like to do transfers on the side as a little additional income.

If that's your goal and that's what you tell the ATF, they will deny your application. The purpose of an FFL is to run a business, not to improve your personal collection while pretending to be a business. I'm being deadly serious here. They will deny you if that is your plan.

Lastly, I would like to manufacture for myself, suppressors, but specifically automatic firearms. I have read that buying or manufacturing a "machine gun" requires an FFL and an STO. So that's pretty much my end goal.

That would require an 07 FFL (manufacturing and assembly) and the SOT (special occupational tax). The latter is $500 a year. Beyond that, if you're going to be manufacturing and selling, you're NOW talking BIG dollars (ITAR, fees in the thousands of dollars per year, plus paying excise taxes on every firearm you manufacture and sell, etc.) and big headaches (paperwork). Again, if this is for personal gain only, it's certainly much easier and cheaper to just pay the tax stamps and forego all the headaches.

Yeah, that's me, but my current living situation is temporary. I'll likely be moving east in a year or so, hence my comment in the OP that I want to become an FFL "someday."

Out east as in the New England area of the country, or as in the east side - like Roseville or Warren? Your FFL is for your current premise address and all business must be transacted there. If you're moving to another state, you would need to apply all over again. If you're moving your "business" within Michigan, you'd have to notify the BATFE of the change, and then you have to deal with the zoning issues all over again and likely another IOI investigation. An FFL is not like a CPL where it just follows you.

From what I understand, you can't be an FFL therefore have a business in a rental residency. So I'm waiting until we buy a house, but until that day comes I'm just trying to become informed so I can be ready.

Not true at all. In addition to all the other stuff (e.g. ,zoning), you just have to have permission from the property owner. As long as s/he is OK with it AND you meet all other requirements, you can do it. There are many home-based FFLs run out of rental properties. It's just an extra hoop or two.

[93bandit]

If that's your goal and that's what you tell the ATF, they will deny your application. The purpose of an FFL is to run a business, not to improve your personal collection while pretending to be a business. I'm being deadly serious here. They will deny you if that is your plan.

That would require an 07 FFL (manufacturing and assembly) and the SOT (special occupational tax). The latter is $500 a year. Beyond that, if you're going to be manufacturing and selling, you're NOW talking BIG dollars (ITAR, fees in the thousands of dollars per year, plus paying excise taxes on every firearm you manufacture and sell, etc.) and big headaches (paperwork). Again, if this is for personal gain only, it's certainly much easier and cheaper to just pay the tax stamps and forego all the headaches.

Out east as in the New England area of the country, or as in the east side - like Roseville or Warren? Your FFL is for your current premise address and all business must be transacted there. If you're moving to another state, you would need to apply all over again. If you're moving your "business" within Michigan, you'd have to notify the BATFE of the change, and then you have to deal with the zoning issues all over again and likely another IOI investigation. An FFL is not like a CPL where it just follows you.

Not true at all. In addition to all the other stuff (e.g. ,zoning), you just have to have permission from the property owner. As long as s/he is OK with it AND you meet all other requirements, you can do it. There are many home-based FFLs run out of rental properties. It's just an extra hoop or two.

Fair points. I didn't think tax stamps apply to automatic weapons. But at a minimum, I would like the additional income. Also, I have no desire to operate a business in a rental. Too many potential headaches in my opinion.