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  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackam View Post
    Howard Hill, when ordering arrows from my Dad, a custom arrow maker way back when, specified the spline he needed. Good enough for Mr Hill - good enough for me!
    Do you remember in the 50's and later when you could buy blank shafts of port orford cedar and make your own, incl making the fletching 'machine' w/ the bent wire to shape the feathers (many of which were plastic later) and serve your own bowstrings after making them from a spool of Dacron(?)

    Then they also had 'battleshafts' which were like 'forged' cedar as they were smaller in diameter and stiffer and of a darker brown color? Those arrows were somewhat akin to a 'ballistic coefficient' of a bullet, i.e. similar to the difference between a 'long thinner' 7mm bullet, vs a 'shorter fatter' .308. bullet. Same principle in effect. IIRC the battleshafts were compressed somehow under heat, like an autoclave process?)

    60 yrs ago I used to pick grapes for a farmer just to get $16.20 for a dozen Easton aluminum but don't remember if they had different levels of 'spine,' 'spline.'

    Nearly all circu****ential shapes/objects have a 'spine.' Pool cues, golf shafts, etc. Physicists have argued for years whether 'spining' unless grossly present, has any real effect on the end results of using such shapes. You can find the hard spine of a golf shaft by using 2 roller bearing races or simply laying the shaft in a bath tub with a few inches of water and watch it rotate then stop. All have a 'hard' spine and a 'soft' spine. Orienting the 'spine' in different quadrants ahs an effect on shaft flex, but none of it has ever been proven to make the golfer a better golfer! (Some even have 2 spines but that is just another source of arguing and creates even more discussion among 'engineeers' who can't play golf except with a calculator))

    To many back home, shooting the 'compound' bow was a 'prosthetic' device tantamount to 'cheating!'

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeDee View Post
    Do you remember in the 50's and later when you could buy blank shafts of port orford cedar and make your own, incl making the fletching 'machine' w/ the bent wire to shape the feathers (many of which were plastic later) and serve your own bowstrings after making them from a spool of Dacron(?)
    I have boxes of the p.o.c. shafts as well as the fletching machine with the bent wire. It currently has the wire shaped for an arrow with a 4 fletch to fly a 125 grain MA3 broadhead with shick razor blades riveted on them (Bear archery offered to buy the idea. My father invited a rep out to the house and showed him how he did it. They took it from there and now all our broadheads are razors in some fashion.)

    I also have the machine that puts the crest on the arrows.
    I'll never use these things again, but I just can't seem to part with them.

    I brought the arrow spline measuring device to the 2A march today. Looked up Rick Ector to loan it out but found out it was RickMasters!

    Close, but no cigar!
    "But then there are plenty of gun folks who think no one should rock the boat because it might piss off the anti gun crowd/politicians and cause even more gun control." - Bikenut
    Submissive gun rights advocates need to lose their submissiveness before we lose our 2A rights.

  3. #13
    MGO Member Roundballer's Avatar
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    You guys are confusing the crap out of me. This is a spline on a shaft.



    I have never seen an arrow shaft that looks like that. Even though, I understand that someone did some kind of a gimmicky fluting on an arrow shaft about 30 years ago. It had no real effect on the rigidity or the flight characteristics of the arrows.


    Life Member, NRA, Lapeer County Sportsmen's Club Disclaimer: I Am Not A Lawyer. Opinions expressed are not representative of any organization to which I may belong, and are solely mine. Any natural person or legal entity reading this post accepts all responsibility for any actions undertaken by that person or entity, based upon what they perceived was contained in this post, and shall hold harmless this poster, his antecedents, and descendants, in perpetuity.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roundballer View Post
    You guys are confusing the crap out of me. This is a spline on a shaft.
    That's because we're talking about the spline OF an arrow and not ON one.

    You say potato, I say spline. LOL
    Last edited by Jackam; 09-11-2019 at 07:23 PM.
    "But then there are plenty of gun folks who think no one should rock the boat because it might piss off the anti gun crowd/politicians and cause even more gun control." - Bikenut
    Submissive gun rights advocates need to lose their submissiveness before we lose our 2A rights.

  5. #15
    MGO Member Roundballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Roundballer View Post
    You guys are confusing the crap out of me. This is a spline on a shaft.
    That's because we're talking about the spline OF an arrow and not ON one.

    You say potato, I say spline. LOL
    I said SPLINE, you spoke gibberish.

    And it is really disappointing that a "Super Moderator" can't clip a quote without messing up the Vb code tags. Or at least not caring very much in this instance.


    Life Member, NRA, Lapeer County Sportsmen's Club Disclaimer: I Am Not A Lawyer. Opinions expressed are not representative of any organization to which I may belong, and are solely mine. Any natural person or legal entity reading this post accepts all responsibility for any actions undertaken by that person or entity, based upon what they perceived was contained in this post, and shall hold harmless this poster, his antecedents, and descendants, in perpetuity.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roundballer View Post
    I said SPLINE, you spoke gibberish.

    And it is really disappointing that a "Super Moderator" can't clip a quote without messing up the Vb code tags. Or at least not caring very much in this instance.
    You just can't help but make it personal, can you?
    Sorry for the mis-step. I was busy fighting for YOUR firearm rights in Lansing with a thousand other concerned individuals when I posted it from my iPad.
    Sorry we couldn't have been active together.
    "But then there are plenty of gun folks who think no one should rock the boat because it might piss off the anti gun crowd/politicians and cause even more gun control." - Bikenut
    Submissive gun rights advocates need to lose their submissiveness before we lose our 2A rights.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackam View Post
    You just can't help but make it personal, can you?
    Sorry for the mis-step. I was busy fighting for YOUR firearm rights in Lansing with a thousand other concerned individuals when I posted it from my iPad.
    Sorry we couldn't have been active together.
    50 yrs ago, I knew a man who emigrated (legally) to the USA when he was 20. He had already been a true blacksmith at age 12 in his Eastern European native land where he grew up under his father's 'apprentice-ship.'

    When he arrived in US, he went into a steel mill that was famous for specialty-alloy steels incl one-of if not the-first titanium mill in the world and soon had his own small shop in the metallurgical department where he had free rein to develop his ideas and advise the educated 'engineers.' One engineer called this 'foreigner' the best metallurgist he had ever seen.

    This 'foreigner' who became honestly citizenized always called a chimney a 'chimbly.' Everyone understood him just as much as they respected and
    admired him and anyone who made fun of him was usually regarded as a 'prig.' (That last word is not mis-spelled - look it up B-4 you delete my post, please!!!!)

    I don't mind anyone calling an arrow's 'frequency' a 'spline.' I know what 'spline' means to both an arrow and a 'straight shooter.'

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeDee View Post
    50 yrs ago, I knew a man who emigrated (legally) to the USA when he was 20. He had already been a true blacksmith at age 12 in his Eastern European native land where he grew up under his father's 'apprentice-ship.'

    When he arrived in US, he went into a steel mill that was famous for specialty-alloy steels incl one-of if not the-first titanium mill in the world and soon had his own small shop in the metallurgical department where he had free rein to develop his ideas and advise the educated 'engineers.' One engineer called this 'foreigner' the best metallurgist he had ever seen.

    This 'foreigner' who became honestly citizenized always called a chimney a 'chimbly.' Everyone understood him just as much as they respected and
    admired him and anyone who made fun of him was usually regarded as a 'prig.' (That last word is not mis-spelled - look it up B-4 you delete my post, please!!!!)

    I don't mind anyone calling an arrow's 'frequency' a 'spline.' I know what 'spline' means to both an arrow and a 'straight shooter.'
    I have heard MANY people call it a chimbly. I never understood why, but I've never tried correcting them.

    I was hoping for more of the story about the metallurgist. Sounds like a cool story!

    I understand the need/want for some people to correct others when they hear something that they don't think is right. Ashamedly - I'm that way when someone says "clip" and they mean magazine. I just WANT them to know the difference, even though I know exactly what they are referring to.

    My Dad used the word "spline" and I will always use it too.
    On the other hand, my Mother always said "warsh" when she referred to wash. I didn't pick that one up, but am immediately endeared to anyone these days that says it like that!
    "But then there are plenty of gun folks who think no one should rock the boat because it might piss off the anti gun crowd/politicians and cause even more gun control." - Bikenut
    Submissive gun rights advocates need to lose their submissiveness before we lose our 2A rights.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackam View Post
    I have heard MANY people call it a chimbly. I never understood why, but I've never tried correcting them.

    I was hoping for more of the story about the metallurgist. Sounds like a cool story!

    I understand the need/want for some people to correct others when they hear something that they don't think is right. Ashamedly - I'm that way when someone says "clip" and they mean magazine. I just WANT them to know the difference, even though I know exactly what they are referring to.

    My Dad used the word "spline" and I will always use it too.
    On the other hand, my Mother always said "warsh" when she referred to wash. I didn't pick that one up, but am immediately endeared to anyone these days that says it like that!
    His name was Paul Dragelevich. Like many of his era and perhaps now too, he could read the sparks off a grinder to a great degree re: the components of certain steels many of which they didn't have in the old country but which he learned about by learning the steel making processes in the old mill in town that became gradually modernized over the years with TOC, BOF, electric, Continuous Cast, etc furnaces whiel still maintaining the old open hearths and blast furnaces since they used all of them. THey used to make small samples called 'pigs' (from which words 'pig iron' came since the little samples were small pieces of poured steel diverted from the main pour into small 'molds' the size of a thick large Hershey bar and when these little 'pigs' were broken in half, the 'melters' in the open hearths etc. would 'read' the constituents of the newly poured iron by holdng it under different grades of light and this man and one other 'old timer form 'another country' would be able to judge the purity of what the constituents were supposed to be. Teh little samples would then be discarded which lent to often calling any poor or useless iron 'Pig Iron.'

    When I worked in the rolling or 'blooming' mill for a awhile in 1963 where they 'rolled' the 27 ton ingots into billets or slabs for various end uses (I am pretty sure they made the steel for Remington barrels back then) there was a man who was taking videos of the 'bloom' or shower of sparks that came from the montrous rolls that would come down on raw ingots to roll them flatter or squarer. The rolls were cast in the foundry next to the mill and the huge 'shower' of sparks was called a 'bloom.'

    One day I saw a short man with a large camera filming the sparks flying off the ingot being rolled. His 'camera' was large as the old newspaper reporter cameras carried on the shoulder. I asked what he was taking movies of and he told me it was for capturing the various colors of all the millions of sparks coming off the ingot while it was being shaped so the film would be taken to metallurgy and the qualtiy of the steel could be determined by how many colors were present in ratio to the original ratio of what alloys were critical to the steel's quality for the specific uses for which that steel was being made.

    He told me he was trained in the 40's by a man who could break a small 'sample' of newly-poured steel and hold it under different grades of light and tell what the consistency of the alloys were, just like the spectrometer could do later. It reminded me of photography wherein some like to use early morning daylight for certain effects, others use neon and some use evening or 'thicker' light. (Years ago, I found that inspecting a refinished rifle stock under 3 grades of light would bring out any anomaly in the difference between an original unfinished fore-end and a recently refinished buttstock - usually there would be a faint blue cast on the refinished section which would have to be redone to match the original finish on the fore-end. It was rarely achievable but one could come close.)

    I always thot of that man, a 'DP' from Yugoslavia, when I looked into photography or wood working and could only surmise he had begun assimilating the various effects of making and treating steel even before he knew what he was doing, and that his instincts eventually became a repository for his experience.

    THe titanium mill became an adjunct of that steel mill in the 50's. It was called 'Rem-Cru' Titanium since the mill itself was named 'Crucible Steel Co.' and the new name lent credence to the claim that the steel mill made steel for Remington firearms, both the barrel and the famous steel solid bar for the action which was then machined supposedly into a tube.

    Another man whose father was also an old timer who came to the US as a child worked in the Titanium Division after serving in the Korean War. His name was Mike Shorak. When he came back form Korea he altered the M1-Carbine action which he said was too fragile for reliabiltiy in cold climates. He offered it to the Govt who replied they were phasing out the carbine but they either offered him or gave him a patent on the process. My cousin who was a pretty good gunsmith for over 60 years told me all Mike Shorak did was to reverse-engineer the way Williams' original action functioned. I never looked up Mike's 'invention' but it was known thru-out western PA that he had accomplished what he claimed and he was not the type of man who needed or even wanted applause - he just spent his time working with ideas in and out of the Titanium division of the steel mill. My cousin told me that Mike's action was actually made of titanium so that lightness might have been the majority of what possibly 'improved' its function in frigid climates, but there was also a nuanced aspect involved that differed from Carbine Williams' original.

    (A few machinists and gunsmiths back home often asked Mike if they could see his prints / sketches etc. but he would smile and walk away. )

    Mill was a great place. IIRC John Dewey and the Harts used Crucible Steel for their barrels and when one of them (Hart Bros?) moved to TX from Nescopec PA they used Crucible Stainless for barrels for a time.

    THe steel mills produced more than the proverbial shot and beer worker - they offered an entire way of life for people and families and many kids grew up following their relatives into the mills or driving steel hauling semis, building or rebuilding blast furnaces and newer mills, starting their own machine shops etc., and when that disappeared an entire way of life also disappeared which was basically a life of men who used their hands to create and build.

    Sorry for the long windedness!!! I am old now, never could type well, and can't remember all of what I once was part of.

    Yet in the long run, who really gives a ---- if it's 'spined' or 'splined' !?!??!

  10. #20
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    GREAT story!

    I can't imagine the heat that one must put up with while working there - but then again, a Super Moderator takes his fair share (deserved or not!)

    I was in a G.M foundry once for a few hours. Loud. Terribly Dusty. Hot. Those guys got to retire after 25 years instead of having to work 30 like all the other GM shops. I saw why!
    "But then there are plenty of gun folks who think no one should rock the boat because it might piss off the anti gun crowd/politicians and cause even more gun control." - Bikenut
    Submissive gun rights advocates need to lose their submissiveness before we lose our 2A rights.

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