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  1. #1

    New to precision shooting, how should I equip myself?

    Having recently moved to the area from Maryland, firearms are finally a hobby one can reasonably pursue. Distance shooting has always interested in me, but I've only recently stumbled upon precision marksmanship and all that goes with it. I'm reaching out for some advice on rifles/cartridges to help me meet my goals.

    Up front, I'm not a hunter (I only bring this up because people often recommend firearms if they might meet multiple objectives) and I don't need the $3k "Tacti-cool" gun. My goal is to achieve a decent grouping at 1000 yards - not saying I'm looking to do this straight out of the box, just that is my current end-goal of skill. And yes, I am fortunate to have a nice chunk of acreage to actually conduct this kind of shooting.

    What's my budget? Well I'm not looking for junk, but like I said, I don't need the $3k gun either. I also understand the rifle is only half the purchase in this, so advice on optics is welcomed as well.

    My thoughts originally came down to either the Remington 700 or the Ruger American Predator after ruling out the similar Savage and Mossberg models. The 700 obviously has its lineage and accessories, although rumor has it the quality has gone down recently. The RAP has a lot of nice features (free floating barrel, etc.), and in .223 can be found to accept Magpul magazines (so less reloading). And yes, with that, part of the reasoning for choosing these two is both are available in .223 - a round that is relatively cheap, plentiful, and can pull double-duty when it comes time to build that AR15.

    QUESTION 1: What recommendations do you have for cartridges. I've listed some of my thinking behind the .223 above. I've read about the .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor, which I know will easily meet my distance goal, but at nearly a $1/round, I'm not sure that's for me. Investing in a firearm is one thing, but I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy it less if every trip out is $50-$100. Any middle-ground you might recommend?

    Went to the local gun store today and the guy there said forget all that and go with a Ruger Precision Rimfire. I've looked at it and like the price of .22 - but match grade .22 rounds start to hit per-round prices of larger cartridges, I'm not a fan of all the plastic, and I question if "working up" rifles instead of starting and growing into the rifle I intend to end up with will help the salesman's pocket more than mine.

    QUESTION 2: What recommendations for a good "middle-of-the-road" (i.e. capable and $300-$700 or so) do you have? Any firearms no longer in production (that aren't super-rare) that you might recommend? Something I'm not thinking of here?

    Appreciate any thoughts you have. Thank you!

  2. #2
    MGO LIFE Member banjobart's Avatar
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    Where are you going to shoot 1,000 yard targets in MI? A square 40 is 440 yards on a side and the optimal 80 acre rectangular parcel is 880 yards on the long side.

    If there is a house at 600-700 yards on your range the bullet will fly over the roof before it hits a 1,000 yard target. The drop will be roughly 30 feet. Practice and study trajectories. You will need a good chronograph to measure velocity to plot your scope settings for 500-1,000 yards.

    With a 100-yard zero, the . 308 drops 389 inches at 1,000 yards and drifts 100 inches in a full-value 10 mph wind.

    The .223 is not a 1,000 yard cartridge. The .308 can be in the right rifle. !,000 yard ammo costs a buck or two a round unless you reload, then you will need a lot of expensive equipment. 1,000 yard ammo requires fire forming for the specific rifle then neck sizing only when reloaded. 1,000 yard bullets cost almost a buck each with components to reload, Sierra or Hornady.

    Start with the 22 LR at 100 yards then work your way up to the 223 at 500 yards then the 308 at greater yardage. It will be a couple years before you can shoot a "decent grouping" at 1,000 yards. There is a lot involved.

    I cannot imagine a rifle/scope combo that can keep 10 shots on paper at 1,000 yards costing less than $1,500. (Rem 700 + 24 power scope, Nikon or Leupold?). You will need a 20-30 MOA scope base or else shim your rear scope base.
    Last edited by banjobart; 01-23-2020 at 11:29 PM.
    MGO Life Member, NRA Life Patron Member, CCRC Life Member, GOA Life Member

  3. #3

  4. #4
    MGO LIFE Member banjobart's Avatar
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    MGO Life Member, NRA Life Patron Member, CCRC Life Member, GOA Life Member

  5. #5
    MGO Member Mkc451's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldGeorge View Post
    Having recently moved to the area from Maryland, firearms are finally a hobby one can reasonably pursue. Distance shooting has always interested in me, but I've only recently stumbled upon precision marksmanship and all that goes with it. I'm reaching out for some advice on rifles/cartridges to help me meet my goals.

    Up front, I'm not a hunter (I only bring this up because people often recommend firearms if they might meet multiple objectives) and I don't need the $3k "Tacti-cool" gun. My goal is to achieve a decent grouping at 1000 yards - not saying I'm looking to do this straight out of the box, just that is my current end-goal of skill. And yes, I am fortunate to have a nice chunk of acreage to actually conduct this kind of shooting.

    What's my budget? Well I'm not looking for junk, but like I said, I don't need the $3k gun either. I also understand the rifle is only half the purchase in this, so advice on optics is welcomed as well.

    My thoughts originally came down to either the Remington 700 or the Ruger American Predator after ruling out the similar Savage and Mossberg models. The 700 obviously has its lineage and accessories, although rumor has it the quality has gone down recently. The RAP has a lot of nice features (free floating barrel, etc.), and in .223 can be found to accept Magpul magazines (so less reloading). And yes, with that, part of the reasoning for choosing these two is both are available in .223 - a round that is relatively cheap, plentiful, and can pull double-duty when it comes time to build that AR15.

    QUESTION 1: What recommendations do you have for cartridges. I've listed some of my thinking behind the .223 above. I've read about the .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor, which I know will easily meet my distance goal, but at nearly a $1/round, I'm not sure that's for me. Investing in a firearm is one thing, but I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy it less if every trip out is $50-$100. Any middle-ground you might recommend?

    Went to the local gun store today and the guy there said forget all that and go with a Ruger Precision Rimfire. I've looked at it and like the price of .22 - but match grade .22 rounds start to hit per-round prices of larger cartridges, I'm not a fan of all the plastic, and I question if "working up" rifles instead of starting and growing into the rifle I intend to end up with will help the salesman's pocket more than mine.

    QUESTION 2: What recommendations for a good "middle-of-the-road" (i.e. capable and $300-$700 or so) do you have? Any firearms no longer in production (that aren't super-rare) that you might recommend? Something I'm not thinking of here?

    Appreciate any thoughts you have. Thank you!
    In MI - not knowing where you are located, 500m is about the longest public/private range you will find. There are couple longer but they are difficult to get onto. I shoot 1000m, but on private property on some land on a big industrial farm. Only in the spring until the corn get's too high. Hardest part in SW MI is getting 1000m of flat enough land. 3' in a 1000m will near hide a tank.

    That said, if you are just starting - 100/200yds grouping working on trigger control and technique will serve you best. Another great practice is 22lr out to 150 yds and that is pretty fun. You don't need a 1000$ Anschutz for that, a nice CZ455 or other mid priced 22's will do it fine.You can find some used that work fine if you look around. It will really help with trigger control and technique practices. I shoot @25,50,100yds at a 8.5x11 sheet filled with 1" circles off hand. It's a ton harder than you think.

    Also if you are seriously getting into long range precision shooting - well you are going to have to consider reloading. You can do pretty nice single stage setup for under 500$ - even less if you look around for used equipment. If you want to get to real precision sub .5 MOA and such, hand loading is the only way to do it and it will get your cost down a lot too.

    That said, optics are more important than the rifle at first. If you are going to shoot 1-1.5 MOA @ 500m - you can do that with a 3-400$ rifle. I am partial to 6.5cm but .308 is cheaper, 6mm is good, so is .243, .284, 6.5x55, -- but I have got the urge to build a 224 Valkyrie -- that is a legit 1000m gun in an AR form. Plus you can use the lower for .223/5.56 or 300AAC if you want to get a couple of other uppers.

    I have a RPR (ruger precision rifle for 1000m) but my Rem 700 handles 500m & up fine. Both are 6.5cm. But then my cheap 300$ TC Compass in .243 rings 8" steel all day long @ 500m. I am using Vortex PST 6x-24x 50mm on all of the rifles. Scope & Vortex rings set me back 700$ ea... on a 300$ rifle. I've got 1500$ into the Rem 700, but I've only got 1800$ into the RPR(got it cheap on a great deal). Vortex seem be the value call on scopes these days.

    Lord knows I've spent a ton of money on rifles in that last 15-20 years -- I shoot 6.5cm & .243. I don't have a .308, but honestly I've shot 6.5x55 mauser milsurp out to 500m w/no problems. However as I've aged my eyes are going so I don't shoot iron sites @ distance anymore.

    I hope I didn't confuse this all -- I like long range more than precision - IE ringing a 12" steel plate @ 1000m is pretty fun, even hit the 8" one a lot of the time, but out 200yds is the only grouping I do. My 700 & RPR will do .75 MOA or better easy, never tried to get it smaller, the cheap Thompson/Center will do 1 moa or less @ 200yds also - with factory ammo.

    If you are just starting - well like I said, I am thinking building a 224 Valkyrie in an AR, but a Thompson/Center, Ruger American, Mossberg Patriot, Savage Axis in 6mm, .243, 6.5mm, .308 - and a good 4x14 or better - 50mm scope, I like SFP over FFP -- you could get out of it around 800$ - then 3-500$ for a reloading setup. Get 200-300rds of factory ammo (it's almost as cheap at buying new brass) and shoot it up to get close and dial in, then reload to get precise.

    Example:

    T/C Compass .243 or 6.5cm 300$

    Primary Arms 4x14 250$

    There is 5-600$ setup that will bang 500m all day long and probably get sub .75moa w/handloads
    Last edited by Mkc451; 01-24-2020 at 02:21 AM.

  6. #6
    I am a Forum User
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    Define "decent grouping at 1000 yards". 1MOA? Less?
    Are you wanting to shoot paper, or ring steel?
    If cost of ammo is scaring you away from long range shooting, then you need to pick a different hobby. Long range accuracy and low cost don't exist together. Pick one. You can't have both.

    Store bought ammo, while is plentiful and cheap, won't take you very far in long range. The greater the accuracy you want, the closer you'll be to load development for your specific rifle in your chosen caliber.

    That being said, you can get into a good solid rig that will get you started for around $1000 but if you continue the venture of long range shooting, you'll outgrow it.

    Calibers I'd consider would be 6mm, 6CM, 6.5CM and maybe 308 or 223 if the prior weren't available. I'd drop all consideration for 223 if you want to shoot > 600 yards. (let the flames being)

    Sub $1000: Savage, Ruger, Remington, etc. Take your pick. They'll all do the same thing at that level. The Rem 700 and Savage will offer you more gunsmithing options and is a well known platform. The Ruger Precision Rifle is kind of a one and done type setup, you'll outgrow it and replace the entire gun. Maybe take your optic depending on what you put on top of it. The American / Predator series is basic, entry level for long range options. Pair any of them with an entry level scope and go. Primary Arms 4x14 is a great budget scope to start with.

    Ideal: Tikka, Howa, Bergara would be my choices for a platform. All of which offer you a lot of flexibility and options as you grow and learn precision shooting. Then buy as nice an optic as you can possibly afford. Athlon, NF, Burris, US Optics, Kahles, Vortex, S&B, etc. You could probably sneak in around the $4K mark in this category if you hunt around.

    Then, training, training, training. Join a club, read, study, shoot, go to matches, shoot more, learn from others, etc.

    It all comes back our original points: How much money, and how tight a group do you want. You're not going to find a $1000 rifle set up that will grow with you out to 1000 yards and be the rifle you want when you get there. (if that makes sense). Buy something to get started, then replace and upgrade, along the way, nickle dime etc etc. (Ask anyone who did it that way if they'd do it again, and I promise I can tell you their answer) Or cry once and spend money on a good rifle that you'll be proud to own years down the road and punch paper or ring 1MOA steel at 1k yards.
    Last edited by Quads; 01-24-2020 at 11:10 AM.

  7. #7
    I am a Forum User
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    Quick best bang for buck suggestions:

    Savage rifle in one of the 6.5 calibers
    Vortex optic
    Single stage reloading press and associated accessories (will eventually pay off in reduced ammo cost AND better accuracy)

  8. #8
    MGO Member Mkc451's Avatar
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    Another note -- I said in my post, I was looking at building a .224 Valkyrie, this thread got me thinking -- well considering price:

    PSA 20" 1:6.5 Upper 359.00 (no need for a brake on 22 call rifle, in my opinion - YMMV)
    PSA AR15 MAGPUL ACS-L EPT LOWER 200.00
    2-3 224 Mags 75.00
    Quality Match Grade Trigger 120.00
    Primary Arms 4x14 Scope & Mounts 250.00

    So you are looking at 1000$ or so -- not as cheap as a bolt gun, but you can use the optic(thought I prefer a 3x magnified red dot for normal AR work) & lower for a 5.56 setup when you want, or a 300AAC ... you can even do 450BM or 350Legend and deer hunt the entire state with it. All you have to do is change uppers. Pretty versatile, if you use a red dot, you don't not even have to move optics around. I find the Vortex spitfire 3x red dot great out to 200 yrds.

    Outside of the optics, this is pretty similar to what I am building. Mine is a fair bit more expensive on the lower. It will be a 80% I am building w/custom parts. I will build it with Timeny Calvin Elite Trigger, JPS Buffer, Magpul MIAD Grip, PRS Gen3 Stock since I have most of it on-hand. I haven't put it all together yet, but this thread got me to get off my duff and ordered the upper & parts I didn't have on hand. My best friend and I are going to machine the lower next weekend - lower parts ordered should be here by then. Nice to have a machinist buddy, who I've known for 40 years, that let's me use his home shop to cut my lower.

    I will review it in the spring when I am done w/it - but I am hoping for a very versatile rifle out too 1000m w/1 MOA. Realize that @1 MOA you need to be there or below to aim center and hit a standard IPSC Silhouette @ 1000m ...
    Last edited by Mkc451; 01-24-2020 at 11:47 PM.

  9. #9
    I am a Forum User
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    Got a lot of guys into their first long range rifles. I build switch barrels with Prefit barrels in Savage or Remage. Tons of excellent Barrel choices that can get you into a real shooter for less $$. If your going factory my first choice would be a Tikka Tac30 in .260 Rem. They run $1800. Next would be the Ruger Precision in 6.5 Creedmore. Add a Vortex PST or Athlon Ares and your good to go. The 6.5 CM is a great round for 1k yards and under. There are tons of good factory options. The .260 is better especially if you decide to hand load. Same bullet but more powder and speed.

  10. #10
    I am a Forum User
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    223 @ 1k takes some specific things to make it work. Forget about it if you need a repeater. If you plan to shoot F class or prone target rifle from a sling this is another matter, though there are better options.
    Last edited by Rootsy; 01-26-2020 at 10:24 AM.

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