What would you have done differently?

[Mathias]

>> had a horribly slow draw

It's probably not a great idea to criticize a man who was praying in church and needed a few seconds to change course. He died defending others.

[dwcopple]

he wasn't praying. he was communicating with victim #2. Are you guys not watching the video or

[Scoop]

he wasn't praying. he was communicating with victim #2. Are you guys not watching the video or

Nice. This now makes it two threads you've managed to jack up today. Congratulations!

[castrotikon]

Nothing. It ended as well as it likely could have. Six seconds from the shooter's first shot to shooter down. Nothing you could have done to save the shooter's two victims.

With all due respect, there will always be some of "those people" who feel the need to pass judgement in every situation. Monday morning quarterbacking at it's finest. Bottom line, when you're dealing with an actual life & death, fight or flight scenario, finite motor skills and detailed thinking are diminished.

Agreed. Pretty darn nice shooting to drop an assailant under pressure with a single shot, prevented a lot of other damage and no collateral damage.

Should serve as a reminder to all of us on the importance of frequent, effective practice.

[DrScaryGuy]

I’ve watched the video of the incident at the church in Texas, and read some critiques. One criticism is the muzzles of the church members, as they advance to the downed shooter. The room is full of people mostly down on the ground, but a few begin standing up. The members with guns appear to have their muzzles pointed in the direction where the gunman was when he went down. The only safe options seem to be pointed at the ceiling or at the ground directly in front of their toes. My question is what would you have done differently?

Yes their muzzling sucked, but when everybody is on the floor, low ready is GOING to get somebody muzzled. Good Guy went muzzle up almost with a temple index position, one of the most controversial positions... Was there a balcony full of people? I'm not going to complain too much about low ready folks, but there were one or two sweeping the congregation AFTER the guy was already down - that's just bad manners.
As for what else they could have done? have a couple people in closer proximity to him. They knew about him. I would have liked to see him swarmed by good guys as soon as the butt end of his shotgun "cleared leather". Certainly victim 2 could have taken a step or two forwards and made it VERY hard for him to point that shotgun at anybody. Victim 1 could have made a few steps as soon as the guy stood up. he certainly could have drawn faster, but he may have panicked once he saw the barrel pointing at him. That's a very understandable response.
I think church security teams need to do more force-on-force and simunition training if this kind of thing is going to be happening.

It's probably not a great idea to criticize a man who was praying in church and needed a few seconds to change course. He died defending others.

He was part of the church security detail. He should not have been praying, if that's what he was doing - his job was to guard, not sit down and close his eyes. They knew the guy was a problem and they had dealt with him before. he had previously made threats of violence. he suddenly showed up in a wig and a fake beard, acted extra erratic, went in and out of the room a couple times according to interviews. He was sitting with his gun in a hard to reach place. If he had been faster he might have ended it when the bad man was still trying to decide who to shoot first.
As for carrying SOB, I often carry SOB and I KNOW the drawbacks. Whenever i get to feeling the heebiejeebies I either give my cover garment a little tuck behind the gun if i'm also wearing a jacket, or tuck a thumb into my belt so that my hand is already 3/4 of the way to getting my cover out of the way without doing anything that could be construed as brandishing. Nobody sees it unless they're looking to see signs of armed resistance.
Every one of us should be practicing the draw and shoot with the gun we carry and the type of clothes we carry with. I know that SOME of my shirts are a little tight and make it difficult to draw a full sized gun from 3o'clock owb, but are just fine for a compact carried sob iwb. Practice. I know they say 2seconds is a good goal... but faster is just you helping you live.
Not crapping on his memory, but there's a certain amount of reality that we need to consider here. He made mistakes, his mistakes almost certainly contributed to his death. MAYBE if he had not made those mistakes, he MIGHT still be alive. All we can do is guess now. I don't consider him less of an awesome person, and I still put him in the hero category for laying down his own life for brothers, but he was kind of asleep on the job.

[Scoop]

I'm not going to complain too much about low ready folks, but there were one or two sweeping the congregation AFTER the guy was already down - that's just bad manners.

While they likely could have used their eyes instead of their firearms, perhaps they were scanning the room for additional threats. At that point, there was no guarantee that the first shooter was the ONLY shooter.

[Bikenut]

I know society and even many within the gun community has been conditioned into thinking that guns have to be concealed in order to not offend the sensibilities of folks who want to feel safe or offers an extra special element of surprise but open carry still offers a faster draw without the encumbrances of cover garments. And then factor in how folks get all upset that just seeing a gun is offensive, especially in a church, and you end up with not just being behind the curve when drawn on but also having to deal with drawing already at a disadvantage with the added disadvantage of drawing from under shirts and/or jackets.

I've watched the video several times and I am of the opinion the first victim could have drawn faster had he been open carrying.

One more observation, perhaps church goers (and all of us whether in church or not!) need to be just a little less tolerant of whackos and their behavior. Had the security team, or even just a few parishioners, hussled the jerk causing the disturbance right out of the church when the disturbance started even if it caused a commotion the tragic part of the incident might have been avoided. Proactive tactics might, and I say MIGHT, have avoided the whole thing.

Having said all that as an admitted Monday morning quarterback I will say the response to the situation after it developed, at least in my opinion, was excellent.

[dwcopple]

He was part of the church security detail. He should not have been praying, if that's what he was doing - his job was to guard, not sit down and close his eyes.

Not crapping on his memory, but there's a certain amount of reality that we need to consider here. He made mistakes, his mistakes almost certainly contributed to his death. MAYBE if he had not made those mistakes, he MIGHT still be alive. All we can do is guess now. I don't consider him less of an awesome person, and I still put him in the hero category for laying down his own life for brothers, but he was kind of asleep on the job.

Exactly the same points I made and was chastised for. Excellent post. RIP to the good citizen.

[xtrema312]

This whole situation could have played out a lot worse if they hadn't had a security team and been vigilant. However, it could have gone better. Things can always go better, and we can learn from examples like this. They had a team, they trained and they were aware. However, we can't brush off the lessons that should be learned from this. That would negate the sacrifice these men made.

It's very apparent based on the information out there that they were well aware of this individual. I believe there was an opportunity to have the security team address him prior to him getting into the sanctuary. They definitely could have put a couple of people in close proximity to him and had them a lot more ready to react. I believe the level of odd with this guy would have warranted multiple armed security team members slip up on him and getting him removed vs allowing him to sit there until he started something. Victim number one should have been more ready, should have not presented a full-on frontal target at an already pulled shotgun, should have been way faster on the draw and should have moved making it more difficult target and help hide the fact that he's drawing. He may have still gotten shot, but he may have survived and provided more time for others to react. You can't stand still facing down a shotgun, make a very slow obvious draw and expect to survive. With that said, he's a hero in my mind. He sacrificed his life for others. I just wish his training had been a little more ingrained with movement and draw speed, so he could have reacted better. I definitely thought there was a lot of flagging people with guns. However, it's hard to tell if these are trained security team members or just gun-toting Texans.

Our security team has been trained. We have a long way to go, but we have a pretty proficient group. We've also had to make some choices not to include people on the team until their level of proficiency and safety improves. Victim one's location of carry and speed of draw would not put him on our team. Practicing scenarios it's one of those things it needs to be considered by church security teams. Our goal is not to let somebody that level of odd and suspicious get past the lobby and to put multiple people on them. This guy was not somebody you sort of have people sitting around in the area just to be cautious of them. This guy was a red alert. I hope the situation will be helpful for security teams as a learning lesson. We need to train and learn continuously to be ready.

[SteveS]

One more observation, perhaps church goers (and all of us whether in church or not!) need to be just a little less tolerant of whackos and their behavior. Had the security team, or even just a few parishioners, hussled the jerk causing the disturbance right out of the church when the disturbance started even if it caused a commotion the tragic part of the incident might have been avoided. Proactive tactics might, and I say MIGHT, have avoided the whole thing.

Having said all that as an admitted Monday morning quarterback I will say the response to the situation after it developed, at least in my opinion, was excellent.

I think this is a good question. I used to attend a church that got a fair number of 'odd' people that would wander in and ask for some kind of handout. I will say that they were watched very closely and a group would intervene very quickly if they became agitated.