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Firearms Legal Protection

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  1. #1
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    M1 Garand National Match - What do I really have?

    Hello all,

    I'm looking for more info or background on my M1 Garand Springfield Armory National Match rifle. I'd also be interested to find someone very knowledgable that would go through it and give me a more accurate assessment. Here's why I ask:

    I had a former local gun show vendor (now living in GA) go through my rifle a few years ago. While not a super expert, he owns a NM that is three serial numbers away from the one owned by JFK. Despite that, his rifle s/n is NOT in the DCM serial number list. (Neither is mine, after having looked into it through the CMP, though they did admit their records are woefully remiss.). My friend shared that he's also had the pleasure of looking over a few other NM's, and based his assessment (not an expert) on his experience.

    Anyway, on very careful disassembly my friend saw a few red flags. For one, the internal component markings are in paint stick, not in grease pencil (I may have that backwards?). He felt the markings are correct, just not in the right media. Second, while it contains correct NM components, the barrel has the NM stamp in the top of the barrel, not the left side. Finally, the stock is varnished, and believed to be original, whereas "true" NM's ill were only with an oil finish. There was a question on the Op Rod, but I don't remember what that was.

    My friend's opinion was that this particular rifle was built in Camp Perry, OH by an actual armorer who had previously built NM rifles for the DCM. The varnished stock was a clue for him, as he stated that humidity in the area of Lake Erie would affect accuracy due to swelling of the wood stock, and the varnish prevented the absorption of moisture.

    So questions:

    * Anyone else know of such a thing as a Camp Perry built NM Garand?

    * Is the rest of the info my friend shared correct or not? Again, he admitted not being an expert, but had just looked over a few, which is why he caught those discrepencies.

    * Is there anyone within a couple of hours drive of Detroit (Howell) that I could take this rifle to for a better assessment? I am not willing to ship it or leave it with anyone... I'd prefer to deliver it, have it evaluated, and then leave with it.

    Some background, if this helps:

    I purchased this rifle around 1991 or 92 at a gun show at the old Novi Expo Center. It was sold to me by an older gentleman, Sam Sunman, who operated under Sunman Arms and was from the far east side of Detroit. Sam told me at that time that this rifle was one of two, and that its twin was in Wisconsin. I didn't know what all that meant or if it held any significance, I just have always remembered that. He also said it was extremely accurate. Believe it or not I have never fired this rifle. It's been in my safe since the day I bought it. It's in pristine condition, and can share pics to an email address, at least until my membership here goes through. Once I have an understanding of what I have and its valuation I will be looking to part with it.

    Thanks in advance!

    Les
    Last edited by 66 Bonneville; 01-31-2020 at 02:37 PM.

  2. #2
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    It may help to read about what constitutes a “real” NM Rifle. They were made at Springfield Armory, and consisted of type 1 and type 2. Since yours has a “NM” stamp on the barrel it’d be a type 2. But just because you have a Garand with a NM barrel, does not mean you have a NM Rifle. After the Garand NM Rifle program concluded, unused barrels were used for standard rebuilds and sold as surplus. There’s a lot more to it, so I’d recommend searching the CMP forum for a more in depth explanation about the NM Rifle program. It is odd that the stamp is on top of the barrel. All of mine have it on the left side as you mentioned. I don’t know that I’ve seen one on top. I’d be interested to see a picture of it.

    As for Camp Perry rifles, yes, many many rifles were made for service Rifle competition down there and anywhere else for that matter. For the military teams as well as civilians. But those rifles are not true NM rifles. While they are not necessarily any less accurate or as well made, they don’t command the money that Springfield made rifles do because collectors drive the prices, and they only consider Springfield rifles as “real” NM rifles. That said, military team rifles also can command a premium (Air Force Premium Grade rifles for example), but that usually requires paperwork to prove.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtlucas0311 View Post
    It may help to read about what constitutes a “real” NM Rifle. They were made at Springfield Armory, and consisted of type 1 and type 2. Since yours has a “NM” stamp on the barrel it’d be a type 2. But just because you have a Garand with a NM barrel, does not mean you have a NM Rifle. After the Garand NM Rifle program concluded, unused barrels were used for standard rebuilds and sold as surplus. There’s a lot more to it, so I’d recommend searching the CMP forum for a more in depth explanation about the NM Rifle program. It is odd that the stamp is on top of the barrel. All of mine have it on the left side as you mentioned. I don’t know that I’ve seen one on top. I’d be interested to see a picture of it.

    As for Camp Perry rifles, yes, many many rifles were made for service Rifle competition down there and anywhere else for that matter. For the military teams as well as civilians. But those rifles are not true NM rifles. While they are not necessarily any less accurate or as well made, they don’t command the money that Springfield made rifles do because collectors drive the prices, and they only consider Springfield rifles as “real” NM rifles. That said, military team rifles also can command a premium (Air Force Premium Grade rifles for example), but that usually requires paperwork to prove.
    Thanks for the reply, mtlucas0311, greatly appreciated. I learned a lot from you already, in that you validated that there is such a thing as Camp Perry built NM rifle. And yes, I also recognize that as such it would not be a true NM rifle. Nor do I want to pass it off as one. I am looking to better identify it in order to advertise it correctly and to price it competitively as I do want to sell it. I don't want to give it away, and realize it will not command true NM rifle prices. That said, do you know of anyone who could look over this rifle and give me a better idea of what I have? I'd be okay with an appraisal fee, naturally.

    I added some pics below. If you need more or different angles let me know.

    Thanks for your service,

    Les
    Last edited by 66 Bonneville; 02-13-2020 at 12:05 PM. Reason: typos

  4. #4

  5. #5
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    I think you’d get better results by simply posting those pics and one of the top of the stock (to show the bedding) on the CMP forum. That’s were a lot of Garand collectors hang out. They love critiquing Garands and there’s many there who are very knowledgeable down to the different screws used.

    To be clear, when you say “a Camp Perry rifle” it’s important that you understand the rifles built there weren’t done in any official capacity. There isn’t a building on base anywhere where government armorers are, or were, building or modifying rifles for competitors. There were, and still are, guys who rent space in buildings (known as commercial row) to sell goods and build rifles for cash. Although, more than one rifle or pistol has been built down there by the military team armorers for cash on the side or a fifth of Crown Royal. There really isn’t any way to determine where the rifle was built, it may or may not have been built at Perry and from a practical standpoint it doesn’t matter. I suspect whoever sold it to you stated so because it sounds cool, and they felt it would make the rifle seem more valuable.

    From your pics, I believe you have a rifle that someone accurized for service rifle competition. Hard to say what what it would sell for. It’s not really useful for service rifle because it can’t hang with AR’s, and it’s not legal for CMP fun matches (where most Garands are shot now) because it’s bedded and has NM sights. I don’t believe it carries any real collector value because it’s modified and from a common SN range. There’s guys out there that’ll dig the NM parts though, so as long as the barrel has good readings and a bright bore it’ll pry sell for a premium over a nice service grade rifle. My guess is it’d command somewhere around $1200. But that just an educated guess so don’t get too worked up over that number.

    Post it on the CMP forum and see what they say.

    Good luck,
    Mike

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtlucas0311 View Post
    I think you’d get better results by simply posting those pics and one of the top of the stock (to show the bedding) on the CMP forum. That’s were a lot of Garand collectors hang out. They love critiquing Garands and there’s many there who are very knowledgeable down to the different screws used.

    To be clear, when you say “a Camp Perry rifle” it’s important that you understand the rifles built there weren’t done in any official capacity. There isn’t a building on base anywhere where government armorers are, or were, building or modifying rifles for competitors. There were, and still are, guys who rent space in buildings (known as commercial row) to sell goods and build rifles for cash. Although, more than one rifle or pistol has been built down there by the military team armorers for cash on the side or a fifth of Crown Royal. There really isn’t any way to determine where the rifle was built, it may or may not have been built at Perry and from a practical standpoint it doesn’t matter. I suspect whoever sold it to you stated so because it sounds cool, and they felt it would make the rifle seem more valuable.

    From your pics, I believe you have a rifle that someone accurized for service rifle competition. Hard to say what what it would sell for. It’s not really useful for service rifle because it can’t hang with AR’s, and it’s not legal for CMP fun matches (where most Garands are shot now) because it’s bedded and has NM sights. I don’t believe it carries any real collector value because it’s modified and from a common SN range. There’s guys out there that’ll dig the NM parts though, so as long as the barrel has good readings and a bright bore it’ll pry sell for a premium over a nice service grade rifle. My guess is it’d command somewhere around $1200. But that just an educated guess so don’t get too worked up over that number.

    Post it on the CMP forum and see what they say.

    Good luck,
    Mike
    Thanks Mike. Apologies again for the delay in responding; life has a way of getting interrupting the things I'm trying to get done. I don't have any misconceptions of what I have in this rifle. The gentleman who sold it to me didn't make any overly flowering commentary about it and the price was right back in 1993 when I got it. I'll get onto the CMP website and start posting about it. Thanks again for your time and info. Greatly appreciated.

    Les

  7. #7
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    Thanks to all who viewed or commented about my M1 national match clone. I haven't been on here in a while since all this pandemic stuff started. Anyway, I sold the rifle recently, for what I thought was a decent price.

  8. #8
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    ..

  9. #9
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    Yea, I used to have a Garand National. It was a pretty sweet car!


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoop View Post
    Yea, I used to have a Garand National. It was a pretty sweet car!

    I see what you did there... LOL!!! Well played sir, well played!

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