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  1. #1
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    Question on Buying AR

    Hello,

    Apologize in advance, as I’m sure this has been discussed multiple times, but can’t find the thread.

    Looking to buy an AR from a private seller and don’t understand the process. I have a CPL and I am a Michigan resident. What is the process? Just a bill of sale? Do I need to register?

    Thanks,
    Steve

  2. #2
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    Firearms that aren't pistols such as shotguns and rifles are cash and carry. No paperwork or anything required. Seller may want to verify your age.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreaseMonkeySRT View Post
    Firearms that aren't pistols such as shotguns and rifles are cash and carry. No paperwork or anything required. Seller may want to verify your age.
    Private party sales of long guns do not have background checks. There are no forms to fill out. There is no registration of the transaction. You hand them money they hand you a gun. The seller has an obligation to not sell a gun to someone that they know is not legally allowed to purchase one.

    If someone asked me for ID I would be willing to show my DL and my CPL but I would not let them take a picture of them.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by eightbit View Post
    If someone asked me for ID I would be willing to show my DL and my CPL but I would not let them take a picture of them.
    And just so the OP is aware, many sellers will walk away from people who aren't willing to do this.

    This is not a judgement on eightbit or whether it's right or wrong, so nobody needs to get their panties in a bunch.

    I'm just letting the OP know this so that he might discuss it with a potential seller BEFORE he wastes time, fuel and/or money.

  5. #5
    MGO Member 3rd FocalPlane's Avatar
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    This will raise a hair.
    But think about this, even as the seller.
    Let say your the first owner of, and bought an AR thru an FFL store. Later you sell that firearm to an individual, cash and carry, or barter.
    If that weapon is used for BAD things, BATF starts investigating with last known registered owner. Was it sold properly, and provide records.
    I've had the misfortune long ago to experience this. Your name is now on reports and records, and probably, yes, oh yes, a warrant to search.
    And they are reluctant to leave you alone, no matter how clean your shorts are.

    Call me being a paranoid chicken. But if I sell or Xfer any firearm it goes thru an FFL . . . . thus out of my name !
    If I buy, it goes thru an FFL to remove you as owner, incase you did a bad or want to declare its stolen !
    Cost a pinch more, yeah . . . . its cheap insurance. Everyones experiences are going to be different. Just my paranoia.

    Be safe out there

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3rd FocalPlane View Post
    This will raise a hair.
    But think about this, even as the seller.
    Let say your the first owner of, and bought an AR thru an FFL store. Later you sell that firearm to an individual, cash and carry, or barter.
    If that weapon is used for BAD things, BATF starts investigating with last known registered owner. Was it sold properly, and provide records.
    I've had the misfortune long ago to experience this. Your name is now on reports and records, and probably, yes, oh yes, a warrant to search.
    And they are reluctant to leave you alone, no matter how clean your shorts are.

    Call me being a paranoid chicken. But if I sell or Xfer any firearm it goes thru an FFL . . . . thus out of my name !
    If I buy, it goes thru an FFL to remove you as owner, incase you did a bad or want to declare its stolen !
    Cost a pinch more, yeah . . . . its cheap insurance. Everyones experiences are going to be different. Just my paranoia.

    Be safe out there
    You need to re-read what was posted above.

    There is no place an "owners" (name) is kept or removed from. We do not have an "owner database". In fact, a firearm (handgun, long gun, other firearm) can legally pass through 100 hands via a private party sale without the state being aware of it (e.g., long guns are cash & carry, handguns can pass to someone with a MI CPL as well as an out of state CPL so they don't have to complete RI-60).

    No, your name on a pistol transaction record (it is not a registration form) alone does NOT constitute probable cause for a judge to sign a search warrant.

    There also is no legal requirement to keep or "provide records" of a private sale. Anything and everything you are doing is 100% meaningless. But if you THINK it is necessary or if you THINK it makes you feel better, go right ahead.
    Last edited by Scoop; 04-26-2020 at 02:16 PM.

  7. #7
    MGO Member 3rd FocalPlane's Avatar
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    Not being rude or infringing on your territory. Just wish you would have been there to explain to them their sysytem.
    But just so i understand, sorry. The forms you then fill out when purchasing a firearm really go no where?
    Not to any database or held by anyone ? If i hand over a registered pistol to someone there need not be a transfer form ?

    Not trying to light a fire, but I did go to the State police few years back and ask if there was an inventory on me so I could verify for insurance.
    Did the same to a local PD and they also provided a list of registered firearms. ( inaccurate via out of date )
    Just saying . . . what I did, sorry.

    yep, sure makes me feel better

  8. #8
    MGO Member Roundballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3rd FocalPlane View Post
    Not being rude or infringing on your territory. Just wish you would have been there to explain to them their sysytem.
    But just so i understand, sorry. The forms you then fill out when purchasing a firearm really go no where?
    Not to any database or held by anyone ? If i hand over a registered pistol to someone there need not be a transfer form ?

    Not trying to light a fire, but I did go to the State police few years back and ask if there was an inventory on me so I could verify for insurance.
    Did the same to a local PD and they also provided a list of registered firearms.
    Just saying . . . what I did, sorry.
    You seem to be blending a lot of things together to make a third thing.

    When you buy from an FFL, you do Federal paper work and they perform a NICS background check.
    There is nothing transmitted to the federal government that is or can be used to create a registry. The record of the NICS check, when completed, is to be destroyed within 24 hours. The form you fill out at the dealer is kept there at the dealer and not entered into a database that the Feds can access. And Federal law prohibits the ATF. or any other Federal entity from creating a searchable record system.
    In the case that you first alluded to, in order for a long arm to be "traced", they would first have to go to the original manufacturer and look up who they sold it to, dealer or distributor. That entity would then have to look up who they sold it to, and on until they get to the FFL. The FFL will be able to find the name of the first person where the firearm entered the open market. If that person has sold it, and kept no records (which they are not required to do) the trail ends right there.

    In the State of Michigan, and only about 4~5 others, handguns and certain particular classes of others are required to be "registered". Which in Michigan is actually a sales transfer data base. Now, as with most Michigan laws, there are exceptions to the laws and different processes to follow depending on what kinds "other" credentials the buyer has. And they are confusing and convoluted. One of them is that if a Michigan resident also holds a CPL or equivalent issued by another State, they are exempt from the registration of the transaction.

    Now, it is required by law for the MSP to supply a copy of YOUR records to YOU. They will for $1.00 provide you a printout of every firearm that has EVER been associated with your name. That system is just as screwed up as most of their systems, there is no way to ever remove a record. If you sell a pistol (or other) the new owner generally then register the transaction, and he/she will become the most recent owner, but you still remain as one of the chain of owners (the ffl too as I understand). You have access to all that are associated to your name, whether you still own it or not. You are not entitled to the record of all that have ever owned a particular firearm, and can not see if who you sold it to ever completed the process, or if they didn't tell you when they are exempt. You are not required to keep those records at all, and the purchaser is not required to keep them for more than 60 days(?), or if exempt not at all.


    Life Member, NRA, Lapeer County Sportsmen's Club Disclaimer: I Am Not A Lawyer. Opinions expressed are not representative of any organization to which I may belong, and are solely mine. Any natural person or legal entity reading this post accepts all responsibility for any actions undertaken by that person or entity, based upon what they perceived was contained in this post, and shall hold harmless this poster, his antecedents, and descendants, in perpetuity.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3rd FocalPlane View Post
    Not being rude or infringing on your territory. Just wish you would have been there to explain to them their sysytem.
    But just so i understand, sorry. The forms you then fill out when purchasing a firearm really go no where?
    Not to any database or held by anyone ? If i hand over a registered pistol to someone there need not be a transfer form ?

    Not trying to light a fire, but I did go to the State police few years back and ask if there was an inventory on me so I could verify for insurance.
    Did the same to a local PD and they also provided a list of registered firearms. ( inaccurate via out of date )
    Just saying . . . what I did, sorry.

    yep, sure makes me feel better
    No apology necessary. I'm just separating myth from legal requirements.

    But just so i understand, sorry. The forms you then fill out when purchasing a firearm really go no where?
    FFL Purchase: The form you complete is the BATFE Form 4473. That stays with the FFL and does not get forwarded to the BAFTE unless the FFL gives up their license. If you buy more than 1 handgun within a 5 business day period, a DIFFERENT form is sent to the BATFE, and it does contain information about the handguns purchased.

    Handgun: In MI, you would also sign/complete a state form (RI-60 - Pistol Transaction Record) for a handgun purchase, which most people must turn into their county or municipal LE department. However, if you have an out of state CPL, you don't have to do the latter (AG opinion 7304).

    Long Gun: No additional paperwork is required (e.g., RI-60).

    As part of the process for purchasing from an FFL, you must pass a NICS criminal background check. This does NOT include any detailed information about the firearm(s) you are purchasing. From 2006 to 3/3/2020, a MI CPL served as a Brady exemption (you did NOT have to have a NICS check performed for each firearm purchase). This exemption was rescinded last month. Every MI resident has to pass a NICS background check now (a few exemptions exist).

    Private Party Sale: You don't fill out a 4473, as a private part sale is a state transaction.

    I'm sure I'll be corrected on something, so I'll be happy to edit this if needed. But that's pretty much the gist of it.

    Handgun: If you have a MI CPL and buy a handgun, no NICS background check is performed (other than the completed when you first obtained or renewed your CPL). You just complete the RI-60 and turn it in (again, unless you have an out of state CPL). If you don't have a MI CPL, you have to first obtain an RI-10 License To Purchase, which includes a background check. The RI-10 needs to get turned back in to where you obtained it, and it does contain detailed information about the firearm.

    Long Gun: Long guns require no paperwork to change ownership. Cash & carry.

    Interstate transfers must be transferred through an FFL, at minimum on the receiving end.

    Not to any database or held by anyone ?
    There is a TRANSACTION database (sale/transfer) which is required by law to eventually be purged. But there is no "ownership" or "registration" database (e.g., a database of who owns what firearm RIGHT NOW).

    If i hand over a registered pistol to someone there need not be a transfer form ?
    See above.

    Not trying to light a fire, but I did go to the State police few years back and ask if there was an inventory on me so I could verify for insurance.
    Did the same to a local PD and they also provided a list of registered firearms. ( inaccurate via out of date )
    That's not an "inventory" of what you own. It's simply a record of which handguns had been transferred to you IF they were, in fact, transferred to you at some point in the past. Again, in some situations, the transfer information is NOT shared.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by slyman View Post
    Hello,

    Apologize in advance, as I’m sure this has been discussed multiple times, but can’t find the thread.

    Looking to buy an AR from a private seller and don’t understand the process. I have a CPL and I am a Michigan resident. What is the process? Just a bill of sale? Do I need to register?

    Thanks,
    Steve
    Person to Person Long guns sales are kosher.

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