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Firearms Legal Protection

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  1. #1
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    Documentation for building AR Pistol

    New to this forum.
    I apologize if this has already been a thread and has been answered.

    I'll keep it short.

    I am seeing so many different answers for what I need to do after building an AR Pistol when it comes to documentation.
    They go from "You need a License to Purchase and Pistol Sales Record" to "You just need the Pistol Sales Record since you purchased a Lower Receiver with a serial #" to "Since there is no sale you do not need a RI-60 and you would be commiting a felony if you filled one out"

    Can someone please help clarify, when I build my AR Pistol, do I or do I not have to fill out/turn in documentation?
    I have all the parts and am ready to start building (just picked up a Stripped Lower Receiver from a LLC)
    I understand that I am not buying or selling any pistol.
    However, I thought in Michigan, you need to register (using the RI-60 form) anything that is considered a pistol.

    Thank you for your time.
    J

  2. #2
    MGO Member dice's Avatar
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    Build pistol. Enjoy pistol.
    That's it. No transaction has taken place, so no paperwork is required. You aren't a buyer or a seller, and you certainly aren't both.


    Dice

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by dice View Post
    Build pistol. Enjoy pistol.
    That's it. No transaction has taken place, so no paperwork is required. You aren't a buyer or a seller, and you certainly aren't both.


    Dice
    This.

    It's probably not a bad idea to hold onto your purchase receipt from when you bought the stripped lower. PDs like to use RI-60s as proof of ownership which is not correct.

  4. #4
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    Yeah I even took a picture of the receipt and lower receiver side by side for proof.
    Keeping the receipt on hand is a good idea too.

    I guess I just keep finding myself in the grey area that in Michigan I thought you needed to register any pistol that you own no matter what.
    However, like many have said, this would not be a sale.
    So to fill out a RI-60 form as proof of ownership could lead me to a felony (which obviously I do not want).

  5. #5
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    You have to register for possession, does not matter how you got it. Don't get legal advice on a firearms board. The fine is not high, $250.00 ish I believe but the hassle if you don’t do it is not worth it.

  6. #6
    MGO Member dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vapensmed View Post
    You have to register for possession, does not matter how you got it. Don't get legal advice on a firearms board. The fine is not high, $250.00 ish I believe but the hassle if you don’t do it is not worth it.
    This is 100% incorrect. Michigan's database is for transactions, not possession. Not turning in a RI10 or RI60 after a purchase can be a $250 misdemeanor. Falsified documents is a felony. There is no legal way to be both a purchaser and a seller.
    You do not fill out a RI60 for a pistol that you build. Period.
    It has been discussed ad nauseam on this forum and many others.
    I would suggest that you actually learn the law and the language in it before telling others to ignore the facts that they are given.


    Dice

  7. #7
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    [QUOTE=dice;3206139]This is 100% incorrect. Michigan's database is for transactions, not possession. Not turning in a RI10 or RI60 after a purchase can be a $250 misdemeanor. Falsified documents is a felony. There is no legal way to be both a purchaser and a seller.
    You do not fill out a RI60 for a pistol that you build. Period.
    It has been discussed ad nauseam on this forum and many others.
    I would suggest that you actually learn the law and the language in it before telling others to ignore the facts that they are given.

    Wana bet? You get pulled over, there is a firearm that get run to LEIN and don’t show. What is the possible outcomes? Please enlighten me using your internet facts

  8. #8
    MGO Member dice's Avatar
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    I don't need to bet anything. I know the law from speaking to the attorney's that frequent this forum, and from reading the MCL.
    I would have to agree with you when you tell people not to get legal advice from the internet.
    There are too many people like you that have no idea what the law actually is spouting off like they do.


    Dice

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vapensmed View Post
    You have to register for possession, does not matter how you got it. Don't get legal advice on a firearms board. The fine is not high, $250.00 ish I believe but the hassle if you don’t do it is not worth it.
    100% incorrect. It's clear you don't know the law and several lawyer's opinions on it, and shouldn't be posting about things you know nothing about.

    AR Pistol Assembled from parts "registration":

    28.421 Definitions; lawful owning, possessing, carrying, or transporting of pistol greater than 26 inches in length; conditions; firearm not considered as pistol; election.
    Sec. 1.

    (1) As used in this act:

    <snip>

    (j) "Purchaser" means a person who receives a pistol from another person by purchase or gift.

    <snip>

    (p) "Seller" means a person who sells or gives a pistol to another person.

    28.422a Individuals not required to obtain license; completion of record by seller; duties of purchaser; noncompliance as state civil infraction; penalty; entering information into pistol entry database; obtaining copy of information; exemption; material false statement as felony; penalty; rules; verification; definitions.
    Sec. 2a.

    (5) An individual who makes a material false statement on a sales record under this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.


    ***So, is a SARL (stripped AR lower) a firearm? (under state law, not federal) No
    If no, go to the next question.

    ***If a SARL is not a firearm, it should be a safe assumption to assume it is when fully assembled (we'll skip the intermediate steps). So, if the firearm is <= 26", then this is when the SARL becomes a pistol (if not before), and we ask if the paperwork submission requirements apply.

    MCL 28.422(5) and MCL 28.422a(2) are practically identical, so let's just go with the latter.
    (2) If an individual described in subsection (1) purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol, the seller shall complete a record in triplicate on a form provided by the department of state police. The record shall include the purchaser's concealed weapon license number, the number of the purchaser's license or certificate issued under the Michigan commission on law enforcement standards act, 1965 PA 203, MCL 28.601 to 28.615, or, if the purchaser is a federally licensed firearms dealer, his or her dealer license number. If the purchaser is not licensed under section 5b or does not have a license or certificate issued under the Michigan commission on law enforcement standards act, 1965 PA 203, MCL 28.601 to 28.615, and is not a federally licensed firearms dealer, the record shall include the dealer license number of the federally licensed firearms dealer who is selling the pistol. The purchaser shall sign the record. The seller may retain 1 copy of the record. The purchaser shall receive 2 copies of the record and forward 1 copy to the police department of the city, village, or township in which the purchaser resides, or, if the purchaser does not reside in a city, village, or township having a police department, to the county sheriff, within 10 days following the purchase or acquisition. The return of the copy to the police department or county sheriff may be made in person or may be made by first-class mail or certified mail sent within the 10-day period to the proper address of the police department or county sheriff. A purchaser who fails to comply with the requirements of this subsection is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $250.00. If a purchaser is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this subsection, the court shall notify the department of state police. If the purchaser is licensed under section 5b, the court shall notify the licensing authority of that determination.
    ***The requirement kicks in when an individual "purchases or otherwise acquires". Is manufacture (assemble from SARL) otherwise acquire?
    If yes, then we go to the next question.
    If no, then we can stop with an answer of no paperwork needed.

    ***If manufacture does fall under "otherwise acquire", then we look at to whom does the paperwork submission requirement apply. Answer "purchaser" and "seller". Those terms are defined in MCL 28.421:
    (j) "Purchaser" means a person who receives a pistol from another person by purchase or gift.

    (p) "Seller" means a person who sells or gives a pistol to another person.
    ***Does someone who manufactures a pistol (builds from SARL) acquire from "another person"? No. This means that such a person does not fit either the definition of "purchaser" nor the definition of "seller". It is a longstanding principle of statutory construction that when a term is defined in the law, that definition controls. Further, all words are to be given meaning and thus cannot be ignored.

    Therefore, even if we get this far, there is no legal way for such a person to fill out the paperwork. A "seller" must fill out the paperwork, and a "purchaser" must turn it in. Further, if you lie on a form, both MCL 28.422 and 28.422a make it a 4yr felony.
    (5) An individual who makes a material false statement on a sales record under this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.

    There are also additional exemptions. Someone moving into the state with pistols already purchased cannot legally complete the form. Individuals that also have an out of state CPL are exempt. Read here: https://miopencarry.org/news/2015/06...n-Registration

    Pistol transaction records do not constitute legal possession. They are transaction records, so stop thinking it's like vehicle registration because it's not. There is also no such charge as carrying an unregistered pistol in Michigan. Possessing a firearm that is not stolen by an individual who is not a prohibited person constitutes legal ownership of what gun. This is why I've always recommended someone keep their receipt.



    Quote Originally Posted by dice View Post
    This is 100% incorrect. Michigan's database is for transactions, not possession. Not turning in a RI10 or RI60 after a purchase can be a $250 misdemeanor. Falsified documents is a felony. There is no legal way to be both a purchaser and a seller.
    You do not fill out a RI60 for a pistol that you build. Period.
    It has been discussed ad nauseam on this forum and many others.
    I would suggest that you actually learn the law and the language in it before telling others to ignore the facts that they are given.


    Dice
    It's not even a misdemeanor, it's a civil infraction. Essentially a speeding ticket.

  10. #10
    MGO Member dice's Avatar
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    Thanks Jeff. I knew that, and still typed it wrong.


    Dice

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