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Firearms Legal Protection

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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBaldwin View Post
    My apologies for passing on what Michigan State Police records department told me. If they are incorrect then someone’s best bet is to contact an attorney. If you know the MCL that specifically states what you’re saying please pass that along. I would like to look it up myself. As of now I haven’t been able to find anything definitive. Respectfully I wouldn’t take anyone’s legal advice on here and run with it. That is what will get people in a heap of trouble.
    A $250 civil infraction is not a heap of trouble.

    Follow along:


    AR Pistol Assembled from parts "registration":

    28.421 Definitions; lawful owning, possessing, carrying, or transporting of pistol greater than 26 inches in length; conditions; firearm not considered as pistol; election.
    Sec. 1.

    (1) As used in this act:

    <snip>

    (j) "Purchaser" means a person who receives a pistol from another person by purchase or gift.

    <snip>

    (p) "Seller" means a person who sells or gives a pistol to another person.

    28.422a Individuals not required to obtain license; completion of record by seller; duties of purchaser; noncompliance as state civil infraction; penalty; entering information into pistol entry database; obtaining copy of information; exemption; material false statement as felony; penalty; rules; verification; definitions.
    Sec. 2a.

    (5) An individual who makes a material false statement on a sales record under this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.


    ***So, is a SARL (stripped AR lower) a firearm? (under state law, not federal) No
    If no, go to the next question.

    ***If a SARL is not a firearm, it should be a safe assumption to assume it is when fully assembled (we'll skip the intermediate steps). So, if the firearm is <= 26", then this is when the SARL becomes a pistol (if not before), and we ask if the paperwork submission requirements apply.

    MCL 28.422(5) and MCL 28.422a(2) are practically identical, so let's just go with the latter.
    (2) If an individual described in subsection (1) purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol, the seller shall complete a record in triplicate on a form provided by the department of state police. The record shall include the purchaser's concealed weapon license number, the number of the purchaser's license or certificate issued under the Michigan commission on law enforcement standards act, 1965 PA 203, MCL 28.601 to 28.615, or, if the purchaser is a federally licensed firearms dealer, his or her dealer license number. If the purchaser is not licensed under section 5b or does not have a license or certificate issued under the Michigan commission on law enforcement standards act, 1965 PA 203, MCL 28.601 to 28.615, and is not a federally licensed firearms dealer, the record shall include the dealer license number of the federally licensed firearms dealer who is selling the pistol. The purchaser shall sign the record. The seller may retain 1 copy of the record. The purchaser shall receive 2 copies of the record and forward 1 copy to the police department of the city, village, or township in which the purchaser resides, or, if the purchaser does not reside in a city, village, or township having a police department, to the county sheriff, within 10 days following the purchase or acquisition. The return of the copy to the police department or county sheriff may be made in person or may be made by first-class mail or certified mail sent within the 10-day period to the proper address of the police department or county sheriff. A purchaser who fails to comply with the requirements of this subsection is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $250.00. If a purchaser is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this subsection, the court shall notify the department of state police. If the purchaser is licensed under section 5b, the court shall notify the licensing authority of that determination.
    ***The requirement kicks in when an individual "purchases or otherwise acquires". Is manufacture (assemble from SARL) otherwise acquire?
    If yes, then we go to the next question.
    If no, then we can stop with an answer of no paperwork needed.

    ***If manufacture does fall under "otherwise acquire", then we look at to whom does the paperwork submission requirement apply. Answer "purchaser" and "seller". Those terms are defined in MCL 28.421:
    (j) "Purchaser" means a person who receives a pistol from another person by purchase or gift.

    (p) "Seller" means a person who sells or gives a pistol to another person.
    ***Does someone who manufactures a pistol (builds from SARL) acquire from "another person"? No. This means that such a person does not fit either the definition of "purchaser" nor the definition of "seller". It is a longstanding principle of statutory construction that when a term is defined in the law, that definition controls. Further, all words are to be given meaning and thus cannot be ignored.

    Therefore, even if we get this far, there is no legal way for such a person to fill out the paperwork. A "seller" must fill out the paperwork, and a "purchaser" must turn it in. Further, if you lie on a form, both MCL 28.422 and 28.422a make it a 4yr felony.
    (5) An individual who makes a material false statement on a sales record under this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $2,500.00, or both.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBaldwin View Post
    My apologies for passing on what Michigan State Police records department told me. If they are incorrect then someone’s best bet is to contact an attorney. If you know the MCL that specifically states what you’re saying please pass that along. I would like to look it up myself. As of now I haven’t been able to find anything definitive. Respectfully I wouldn’t take anyone’s legal advice on here and run with it. That is what will get people in a heap of trouble.
    Scoop, Dice, and GreaseMonkey are all correct. Google all the MCWs in the post above and you can read it right from the MI State Govermentalish websites.

    MSP does not know the law.

    You NEVER register a pistol that you have built...... well, if you do, you are then a felon and restricted from owning said pistol....

  3. #23
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    I have read a lot of post in the past stating that you fill out the proper form as buyer and seller. We now know this was incorrect. So I have to ask, has anyone heard or know someone who has been prosecuted for said offense?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBaldwin View Post
    My apologies for passing on what Michigan State Police records department told me.
    Do you always take what some anonymous person at a LE agency says about something as fact? I hope not. Again,you should NEVER take legal advice about firearms laws from the police, as they are often wrong.

    If they are incorrect then someone’s best bet is to contact an attorney.
    As long as said attorney is well versed in firearms law, that's always an option. But not many are. We do have several that monitor and respond in the Legal Beagle forum. You can also ask people who are in the firearms business (e.g., FFLs) as well as those who are well respected, knowledgeable members of a pro-2A community like MGO. The "search" function is your friend here, as this subject has been discussed numerous times on these forums.

    If you know the MCL that specifically states what you’re saying please pass that along. I would like to look it up myself. As of now I haven’t been able to find anything definitive. Respectfully I wouldn’t take anyone’s legal advice on here and run with it. That is what will get people in a heap of trouble.
    I wont' repost what GreaseMonkeySRT posted just a couple posts ago, but there you go.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by erict View Post
    I have read a lot of post in the past stating that you fill out the proper form as buyer and seller. We now know this was incorrect. So I have to ask, has anyone heard or know someone who has been prosecuted for said offense?
    Personally, I have not. Then again, I don't generally go around giving advice based on what I have or have not seen or heard -- I try to always base my advice on federal and/or state law when it comes to topics like this.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoop View Post
    Personally, I have not. Then again, I don't generally go around giving advice based on what I have or have not seen or heard -- I try to always base my advice on federal and/or state law when it comes to topics like this.
    Agree. I know I have also read on other forms the same advise was giving and maybe some states are different and probably how some of this wrong info spread. I bet there was many who did it incorrectly in the past and some that will still do it incorrectly in the future in Michigan.

  7. #27
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    Well sorry everyone for causing more of a stir. Hope I didn’t come across with the wrong attitude. Just trying to pass on info that I thought came from a good source. During my reading of the MCL after speaking with numerous people that had given me the same info it seemed to state that it was unlawful to posses, transport, carry etc etc without registering said pistol. I believe you are correct. Still would like there to be more clarification on the subject. I still don’t understand how if you aren’t required to register a pistol that you build yourself how you can get ticketed for that. Just seems like a bad gray area that needs to be fixed. Especially if it’s possible for an individual to be prosecuted for trying to do what is perceived to be and what any agency will tell you to do.

  8. #28
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    No need to apologize here. You will get good answers from several people in this place. Some not so good as well, but those are usually corrected by others pretty quickly.


    Dice

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBaldwin View Post
    Well sorry everyone for causing more of a stir. Hope I didn’t come across with the wrong attitude. Just trying to pass on info that I thought came from a good source. During my reading of the MCL after speaking with numerous people that had given me the same info it seemed to state that it was unlawful to posses, transport, carry etc etc without registering said pistol. I believe you are correct. Still would like there to be more clarification on the subject. I still don’t understand how if you aren’t required to register a pistol that you build yourself how you can get ticketed for that. Just seems like a bad gray area that needs to be fixed. Especially if it’s possible for an individual to be prosecuted for trying to do what is perceived to be and what any agency will tell you to do.
    Welcome to MGO and MOC
    A lot of gun laws are slapped in by people who have no idea what they're talking about, then enforced (by other clueless people) upon those of us who are just trying to follow the laws and mind our own business.
    DISCLAIMER: Disclaimer. The opinions expressed in this post are those of the author, DrScaryGuy. They do not purport to reflect the opinions or views of MGO, its board of directors, or its members.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBaldwin View Post
    Well sorry everyone for causing more of a stir. Hope I didn’t come across with the wrong attitude. Just trying to pass on info that I thought came from a good source. During my reading of the MCL after speaking with numerous people that had given me the same info it seemed to state that it was unlawful to posses, transport, carry etc etc without registering said pistol. I believe you are correct. Still would like there to be more clarification on the subject. I still don’t understand how if you aren’t required to register a pistol that you build yourself how you can get ticketed for that. Just seems like a bad gray area that needs to be fixed. Especially if it’s possible for an individual to be prosecuted for trying to do what is perceived to be and what any agency will tell you to do.
    Unfortunately, their idea of "fixing" gray areas, is usually to ban them. However, you can just get another state's permit along with your MI cpl, and you would be exempt from registration. Problem solved.
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