6.5 Grendel for whitetail?

[nrich1979]

What would be arty?

Attachment 119611


Yeah the brassard shows that was a long time ago...like Toby Keith says, I'm as good once as I ever was.


Damn. I thought I was going to get a new case of 308 too! A thread from 2020? Should've caught that!

1000 yard shot with a 12” barrel..

Point at a 45° and let the bullet fall into the target

[MCPO_SOCM_RET]

gotcha


Now please die again for 3 years 6.5 thread!

[50 BMG]

HK,
To try and answer your question without too much un-asked for bloviation...
This is about the only "legit" place that I think currently has Starline 6.5G brass:
https://www.armorally.com/shop/starl...grendel-brass/
I've ordered from this company before and they are definitely legit. They also have pretty decent pricing on Holosun Optics.
For $1 or less/case for new 6.5G brass, which is pretty hard to find right now, I'd get some if you are in need. Especially because the Starline stuff is pretty good quality.

I also think that Motor City Gun Works place you sent the link to is a Chinese/false online store front. Also, the prices there are what these cases used to go for 2-3 years ago.
As they say, if it seems too good to be true, it usually is...
The Nosler 6.5G brass is almost $2/ROUND, where it's available...

[50 BMG]

A 6.5 is still a dressed up oinker wanting to be a 308 when its all growed up from a 260 cal.

There really isn't that much difference in recoil if that's what you're set out to tackle.

A 36" target at 1,000 yards from a 12" bbl is sumthin I'd like to see - you have to be one HELL of a shot for that, I can count on my fingers the people I know of that are that good.
Unless you broke out the led-sled for that one on a perfect day with absolutely ZERO wind drift. Standard wind drift AT 500yds with the best out there BC long range 140-something grain round is almost 18". Lower that to 120gr and you're over 20".

I'll even buy you a case of ammo if you can. (You all read it here for posterity)
But when I group (not scatter) that same target with my open sighted 308, you buy me a case of what I shot.
a 20 round leg seems fair - yes? No bench rests. Any shooting position you want (prone).

WoW!
Hard to know where to begin....

First, I don't think anyone here is trying to prove that 6.5G is a direct "replacement" for .308.
But, if you are honest and look at the "real data". 6.5G is, in many ways, a better/more "efficient" cartridge in multiple parameters than .308, with the obvious limitations of being able to shoot heavier than @140g-155g projos (barrel length dependent of course).

Second, comparing the recoil of a similarly barreled .308 to a 6.5G shooting "similarly efficient" projos is like saying "my ice cream is better than yours" without laying down some other parameters, especially basic ones like projo mass AND projo capability/B.C. Lets see how that works:

G1 B.C. comparisons of Hornady "match" projos in 6.5mm vs. .308 (pick any other brand if you want, they will show you similar #'s for this comparison's purposes):
6.5:
123g- .506 to .510
130g- .554
140g- .646
147g- .697
153g- .704!
(The last 2 are a bit heavier than "normal" out of 6.5G guns, especially AR platform ones).

.308:
155g BTHP- .405
155g ELD- .461
168g BTHP- .450
168g ELD- .523
178g BTHP- .530
178g ELD- .547
208g BTHP- .620
208g ELD- .690
225g ELD- .777
(These last 3, while "possible" to chamber in a .308 rifle, they are generally heavier than "normal").

So, in order to shoot similarly "efficient" projos out of a .308 vs 6.5, they have to have 36%-41% more mass. And, since P=MV is a simple formula to compare recoil impulses (for rifles of equal mass) with M being projo mass, it's not hard to see that .308 will kick more that any 6.5 caliber in similar weight rifles. Neither of them being what I would consider "heavy recoiling" in the first place, so I'm not sure why that really matters anyway?
As you mentioned (I think?), since BC also tells you how well a projo bucks the wind. "Generally", 6.5 is also obviously a better wind-bucking caliber in the weights that most .308 & 6.5G rifles would "normally" shoot, IF how much recoil they generate is the deciding factor for whatever reason.

The above are also the reasons why 6.5Creedmore has gained so much popularity is the recent past vs .308, especially since both rounds generate similar velocities.

While we are being 100% honest here, you'd have to agree that .308 is not really "the best 1000 yard caliber" for anything besides maybe putting holes in paper either.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE .308 and I own a few very accurate rifles in that caliber. I also don't feel the need to switch over to 6.5Creedmore from .308 either because for honestly "long range" use (800-1400 yards), I'd just go to my .300WinMag or even .50BMG if I wanted to do some work out there, or beyond.

BUT, Grendel's real attraction (for me anyway) is that I can get "near" .308 deer whacking performance at reasonable distances (even out to 500+ yards), out of the standard 5.56mm AR/M16 size guns/receivers and all it takes to do this out of a rifle most of us SHOULD already own is a simple upper-swap and a dedicated 6.5g mag.
All of that considered, I'd say Grendel is a pretty flippin' cool option for medium sized game, which IS the topic of this whole thread.
No?
Oh, and 6.5Grendel is generally capable of some darn decent accuracy too...

[MCPO_SOCM_RET]

I can't fault your reasoning. A longer projectile is almost always going to have a better ballistic coefficient which in turn means everything you alluded to, less wind drift flatter trajectory, etc - no arguments there.

My main point about long distance accuracy was a counter to the boastful claim of putting a pattern on steel at 1000yds from a 12" barrel without a bench rest/sled/vice. I'd pay to see that.
I can't think of a handful of places in Michigan (excepting private property) where you'd be in a situation to take an ethical 1,000yd shot at a deer. And again, I agree that if you're planning on long range (f-class or PP) hunting there are much better options than 308WIN.

However, I stand by my statement that if recoil is the main concern from moving off a 30cal round, you can mitigate recoil in a myriad of fashions. Which was the original concern (along with a 200yd max shot) in post #1 back in 2020, before this was revived from the dead 3 years later looking for starline brass completely off topic.
If 30cal is absolutly a no-go, a 270 will perform well - and you don't need a treasure map and a pot of gold to find ammo on shelves or reloading components, like the 6.5 grendel nowadays.

[50 BMG]

I can't fault your reasoning. A longer projectile is almost always going to have a better ballistic coefficient which in turn means everything you alluded to, less wind drift flatter trajectory, etc - no arguments there.

My main point about long distance accuracy was a counter to the boastful claim of putting a pattern on steel at 1000yds from a 12" barrel without a bench rest/sled/vice. I'd pay to see that.
I can't think of a handful of places in Michigan (excepting private property) where you'd be in a situation to take an ethical 1,000yd shot at a deer. And again, I agree that if you're planning on long range (f-class or PP) hunting there are much better options than 308WIN.

However, I stand by my statement that if recoil is the main concern from moving off a 30cal round, you can mitigate recoil in a myriad of fashions. Which was the original concern (along with a 200yd max shot) in post #1 back in 2020, before this was revived from the dead 3 years later looking for starline brass completely off topic.
If 30cal is absolutly a no-go, a 270 will perform well - and you don't need a treasure map and a pot of gold to find ammo on shelves or reloading components, like the 6.5 grendel nowadays.

Yup. It's all about sectional density...

1000 yard group on steel with a 12" barreled Grendel?!?
LoL...
Ok, maybe with the right sized plate regular hits would be doable. Aircraft carriers are made of steel right?


Ironically, I have a 12.5" barreled Grendel that I have successfully deer hunted with in MI.
Handloads: Barnes 120g XBT projos running ave. 2315FPS (9FPS ES) as measured with a LabRadar.
Plowed through both shoulders of a doe once at 125 yards, no problem (I wouldn't normally have taken a 2X shoulder shot like that, but I was just a few minutes away from the end of shooting time, so it was getting dark and being on the edge of a swamp, I didn't want her to go too far, and she didn't)...
BUT, I just pulled up my ballistic calculator for that load. At 500 yards, I'm STILL able to deliver 517Ft-Lbs of energy (basically equivalent to a .357Mag. pistol at the muzzle) and the projos are supersonic all the way out to 750 yards where they are still able to deliver 327Ft-Lbs. Also, the Barnes XBTs don't have the highest of G1 BCs, so good Bergers or Hornadys would stretch that performance out another 50-100 yards I'd bet.
Personally, even though that "pistol" will group just below MOA, I would probably never take a shot at a whitetail beyond about 300-350yards with that gun if given the opportunity. Not that I couldn't hit it, but being an ethical hunter, the glass I have on that gun is not high enough quality that I could ensure at least a 90% probability of a vital zone only hit. So I won't take it.
BUT, you have to admit, for a small-package AR "pistol" (25" OAL), being able to deliver over 500Ft-Lbs at 500 yards is not a bad thing!
I have an 18" barreled Grendel upper that I just finished before last deer season which will push that same load/120g Barnes projos out at 2436FPS, which takes that 500Ft-Lbs threshold out to @600 yards and the sonic transition happens a little over 800 yards.
Even with 69g SMKs out of a 16" 5.56mm, 500Ft-Lbs goes bye-bye just a hair short of 350yards.
Yes, 6.5mm projos are REAL bullets, and they are easily shot out of the same rig.


I don't disagree with you on the cost 6.5Grendel cases/components or factory loaded ammo in that caliber nowadays. I'm so glad I stocked up before the SHTF regarding that. Power, primers, projos, they're all the same.

The longest shot I've ever taken on a whitetail was a 6 point that I bagged in central Pennsylvania quite a few years back. That one was at @450 yards (wide open, across a small valley whose trees were all cleared for coal mining a year or two prior to my hunt). But I was also using a 7mm Rem.Mag. rifle launching 140g Spitzer hand loads. Flaaaaat shooter!

I actually knew a girl named Wendy Henry from the Fifty Cal Shooters Assoc. who took a muley buck out west with her .50BMG rifle at somewhere around 975yards if my memory serves me.
Pretty lady. I think she actually did some modeling in her life at one time. She had all the right "equipment" too, along with a very nice match-grade .50cal rifle that she new how to use as well.
LoL...

[mi650]

123 grain Hornady SST works very well on whitetail. Can’t get much more than 2500 FPS out of the Grendel in a 20 - 24” AR platform which limits its effective range. I have taken a couple of deer with the Grendel and none went out of sight.

If you want more range maybe look at the 6mm AR (6.5 Grendel necked to 6 mm) or 6 Hagar and stick a 103 ELD-X in it.

I came in here specifically to comment on the Hornady 123 gr SST.

I shot a 6 point with it a few years ago at just over 50 yards, slightly quartering away, hit him right behind his left shoulder. He went about 80 yards, there was no exit hole. Luckily there was a little snow on the ground, because the blood trail was awful. Yes, it turned his lungs to goo and the top of his heart was like hamburger, but tracking took me about 15 minutes thru some thick stuff. If I ever use a 6.5G again, it will be with a different bullet.

As I found him: https://imgur.com/nthrfC7

Entrance: https://imgur.com/LXNbEV8

Lack of exit: https://imgur.com/2ERDcym

[50 BMG]

I came in here specifically to comment on the Hornady 123 gr SST.

I shot a 6 point with it a few years ago at just over 50 yards, slightly quartering away, hit him right behind his left shoulder. He went about 80 yards, there was no exit hole. Luckily there was a little snow on the ground, because the blood trail was awful. Yes, it turned his lungs to goo and the top of his heart was like hamburger, but tracking took me about 15 minutes thru some thick stuff. If I ever use a 6.5G again, it will be with a different bullet.

As I found him: https://imgur.com/nthrfC7

Entrance: https://imgur.com/LXNbEV8

Lack of exit: https://imgur.com/2ERDcym

Interesting MI650!
Nice deer...

Curious, did you recover the fired projo from inside the deer?
If so, how well did it expand (have a pic of it)?

Do you have any idea what your muzzle velocities with that load are/were?
Nice rifle. What's your barrel length, 16"?

I haven't hunted with the 6.5 123gSST before because in my load development process, they didn't shoot the best out of the 4- 6.5mm projos I tried.
They weren't "bad" for accuracy, just not the best.

Just guessing, but if the SST you shot REALLY expanded/flattened out OR, "exploded" inside the deer, that would help explain why you didn't have an exit wound.

Funny thing though, I have a good hunting buddy who shot a decent sized doe at @ 100 yards a couple years back with a 6.5 Creedmore rifle and he said he didn't get an exit wound with that deer either!
Considering the "couple/few hundred" FPS advantage the Creedmore has over the Grendel, I had a hard time believing it at the time. Now, me wonders if his load was SST tipped too?
I'll see if I can find out...

Personally, I LOVE the Barnes solid copper "X/TSX" bullets for hunting for a couple reasons:
1). They are a monolithic solid projo, so the balance of them would tend to be much better/more consistent than a conventionally constructed projo which is made from a few different components (jacket, core, ballistic tip, point and base "fillers" which would depend on the caliber if those are used or not). So, from my experience, they are usually "match grade" accurate. I just wish they were "cheap".
2). The expansion and weight retention with them is fabulous!
I've killed quite a few deer with these types and the exit wounds were always very impressive (never retrieved the fired projo from a deer though). I also killed a decent sized black bear using a 7mm Rem.Mag rifle with a velocity down-loaded 175g Barnes X projo. That bear was killed with a quartering shot, nearly identical to yours MI650. The projo exited that bear's chest, right behind his front right leg. The projo entered that leg, broke its humerus and fortunately stayed inside the muscle of that leg so I was able to retrieve it after the kill.
It openen up BEAUTIFULLY! It looked just like the projo in this picture.

https://www.africahunting.com/attach...c-jpeg.342804/

I weighed the projo when I got home; 98% weight retention, even after plowing through a whole 6.5' tall bear's torso and breaking an upper front leg bone!
I still have that thing somewhere....