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  1. #11
    I am a Forum User
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    Could someone point me to the section of the law that requires the seller to verify age, residency, and/or criminal record?

    As far as I know, it is on the buyer to obey the law & not buy if they are NOT qualified in MI.
    Seller is only restricted by what they know or should know.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by castrotikon View Post
    All you legally need to do is ask if they're at least 18, legally allowed to possess firearms, and are a resident of MI so that you're not knowingly selling someone a long gun that is not otherwise allowed to own one.

    Now, is it a good idea to ask to see a MI driver's license or state ID? IMO, yes. I always ask to see this, I've had several buyers/sellers ask the same of me, and if someone refused to, I would walk away from the sale.

    Do I require a bill of sale? No, but again, IMO I'd feel more comfortable keeping a log of the serial # and buyer's name/number at the very least.
    Yeah I’m on the same page as you. Not legally required but I feel better to do so.

  3. #13
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    my 2 cents...

    If the guy is a buddy or is known to you and particularly if you know he has a cpl do you really need a bill of sale, check ID etc, etc? No you don't and I personally wouldn't bother with anyone else either.
    No man made law physically prevents one from doing anything they have a mind to.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Leader View Post
    Could someone point me to the section of the law that requires the seller to verify age, residency, and/or criminal record?

    As far as I know, it is on the buyer to obey the law & not buy if they are NOT qualified in MI.
    Seller is only restricted by what they know or should know.
    The law only pertains to those who "knowingly" do so

    750.223 Selling firearms and ammunition; violations; penalties; “licensed dealer” defined:
    "(3) A seller shall not sell a firearm or ammunition to a person if the seller knows that either of the following circumstances exists:
    (a) The person is under indictment for a felony. As used in this subdivision, "felony" means a violation of a law of this state, or of another state, or of the United States that is punishable by imprisonment for 4 years or more.
    (b) The person is prohibited under section 224f from possessing, using, transporting, selling, purchasing, carrying, shipping, receiving, or distributing a firearm.
    (4) A person who violates subsection (3) is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 10 years, or by a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both."

    If this ever came up in court, could a buyer who unwittingly sold a firearm to a minor or an out of state non-resident that was then used in a crime argue that they did not "know" the buyer was a minor/non-resident? Probably.

    Does it give me some peace of mind knowing I don't have to think about that by spending the extra 30 seconds it takes to ask for ID and look at it? Yes.

  5. #15
    MGO Member Roundballer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quads View Post
    Makes me think he's following the law as it's written.
    Peek at a state issued ID/DL , ask if he's legal and count cash. (BTW, do criminals answer the 'are you legal' question honestly?)
    It's not a complex transaction, don't make it one. In the real world, where no legal documents are required, a bill of sale does nothing for you or him with regards to the transaction.
    Quote Originally Posted by castrotikon View Post
    All you legally need to do is ask if they're at least 18, legally allowed to possess firearms, and are a resident of MI so that you're not knowingly selling someone a long gun that is not otherwise allowed to own one.

    Now, is it a good idea to ask to see a MI driver's license or state ID? IMO, yes. I always ask to see this, I've had several buyers/sellers ask the same of me, and if someone refused to, I would walk away from the sale.

    Do I require a bill of sale? No, but again, IMO I'd feel more comfortable keeping a log of the serial # and buyer's name/number at the very least.
    First! A receipt is legal proof for the BUYER to have, and it shows he rendered payment for the item and didn't steal it. The seller has no legal reason for it. Write down the serial number and a description of the item. Make a note that you sold it. Put it in what ever records that you keep. That is all. If you are going to demand signatures from the buyer, make sure they are aware before they make the trip, don't waste their time because of your insecurities.
    Second! It is not a legal requirement to check ID, but they do state in the law that it is an affirmative defense that you did if you ended up selling to some one too young. If the guy is obviously as old as dirt, don't insult him.
    Third! The way the law is written as to knowing if the person is prohibited, you are better off not asking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leader View Post
    Could someone point me to the section of the law that requires the seller to verify age, residency, and/or criminal record?

    As far as I know, it is on the buyer to obey the law & not buy if they are NOT qualified in MI.
    Seller is only restricted by what they know or should know.
    For you and everyone else the law is MCL 750-223

    Sec. 223.
    (1) A person who knowingly sells a pistol without complying with section 2 of 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422, is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    (2) A person who knowingly sells a firearm more than 26 inches in length to a person under 18 years of age is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or a fine of not more than $500.00, or both. A second or subsequent violation of this subsection is a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years, or a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both. It is an affirmative defense to a prosecution under this subsection that the person who sold the firearm asked to see and was shown a driver's license or identification card issued by a state that identified the purchaser as being 18 years of age or older.
    (3) A seller shall not sell a firearm or ammunition to a person if the seller knows that either of the following circumstances exists:
    (a) The person is under indictment for a felony. As used in this subdivision, "felony" means a violation of a law of this state, or of another state, or of the United States that is punishable by imprisonment for 4 years or more.
    (b) The person is prohibited under section 224f from possessing, using, transporting, selling, purchasing, carrying, shipping, receiving, or distributing a firearm.
    (4) A person who violates subsection (3) is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 10 years, or by a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both.
    (5) As used in this section, "licensed dealer" means a person licensed under 18 USC 923 who regularly buys and sells firearms as a commercial activity with the principal objective of livelihood and profit.
    Emphasis added


    Life Member, NRA, Lapeer County Sportsmen's Club Disclaimer: I Am Not A Lawyer. Opinions expressed are not representative of any organization to which I may belong, and are solely mine. Any natural person or legal entity reading this post accepts all responsibility for any actions undertaken by that person or entity, based upon what they perceived was contained in this post, and shall hold harmless this poster, his antecedents, and descendants, in perpetuity.

  6. #16
    I am a Forum User
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    Quote Originally Posted by castrotikon View Post
    The law only pertains to those who "knowingly" do so

    750.223 Selling firearms and ammunition; violations; penalties; “licensed dealer” defined:
    "(3) A seller shall not sell a firearm or ammunition to a person if the seller knows that either of the following circumstances exists:
    (a) The person is under indictment for a felony. As used in this subdivision, "felony" means a violation of a law of this state, or of another state, or of the United States that is punishable by imprisonment for 4 years or more.
    (b) The person is prohibited under section 224f from possessing, using, transporting, selling, purchasing, carrying, shipping, receiving, or distributing a firearm.
    (4) A person who violates subsection (3) is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 10 years, or by a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both."

    If this ever came up in court, could a buyer who unwittingly sold a firearm to a minor or an out of state non-resident that was then used in a crime argue that they did not "know" the buyer was a minor/non-resident? Probably.

    Does it give me some peace of mind knowing I don't have to think about that by spending the extra 30 seconds it takes to ask for ID and look at it? Yes.
    If someone comes to me to buy a long gun, I have no reason to believe they are ineligible to do so.

    If I come to you to buy a gun, should I check to see if you are a resident, old enough, the actual owner?
    Should I require you to sign bill of sale witnessed by 3 people?

    I don't think I'll be doing that.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Leader View Post
    If someone comes to me to buy a long gun, I have no reason to believe they are ineligible to do so.

    If I come to you to buy a gun, should I check to see if you are a resident, old enough, the actual owner?
    Should I require you to sign bill of sale witnessed by 3 people?

    I don't think I'll be doing that.
    You don't have to, and you're well within your right not to.

    Won't change my mind as to how I do things and if it costs me a sale, I can live with that.

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